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 Turalon wrote:
There's also that tidbit about all mages getting loremaster now on endtimes games.

So wouldn't a Loremaster with book of Hoeth and Talisman of Preservation be an auto include in every list?

If I read it right, it means:
- You know every spell in the common magic,
- Have an ok fighty lord,
- Reroll a single die from dispel or cast,
- Have a 4++.

Seems pretty good to me for how many pts he would be.

It's only lores you choose to generate spells from. He doesn't choose.

It's exactly why warlocks don't gain loremaster dark and death.

Time to buy more skeletons.... I thought 100 would be enough.... stupid me...

Wood Elf shooting just got insane!

Wood Elves have great specialist shooting, better then the other elves, there is no denying that, but they do suffer from not being able to take on the hordes due to models being to expensive. So this means i can replace my Glade Guard with Darkshards, move my Glade Guard to be the infinitely more useful Deepwood Scouts and accompany Waywatcher shooting with Bolt Throwers.

My only issue is that those silly dark elves don't have homing arrows like my Woodies do, silly silly Dark Elves, so i will have to work around the forests i like to plonk in the middle of the board. Do you think Dark Riders would be more effective?

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Wood Elf shooting just got insane!

Wood Elves have great specialist shooting, better then the other elves, there is no denying that, but they do suffer from not being able to take on the hordes due to models being to expensive. So this means i can replace my Glade Guard with Darkshards, move my Glade Guard to be the infinitely more useful Deepwood Scouts and accompany Waywatcher shooting with Bolt Throwers.

My only issue is that those silly dark elves don't have homing arrows like my Woodies do, silly silly Dark Elves, so i will have to work around the forests i like to plonk in the middle of the board. Do you think Dark Riders would be more effective?

Camp Wood elves round a cauldron in an Eternity King list.

Oh. All my Glade Guard have Murderous prowess? I guess this works.

Glade Guard have Murderous Prowess anyway as part of Forest Stalkers.

That's one of the more ridiculous things in the End Times list.Wood Elves lose Forest Stalkers, their all-in-one rule, and replace it with Murderous Prowess.

So the shooty army of death loses their bonus to shooting in woods to get a melee bonus the rest of the time. Yay.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Glade Guard have Murderous Prowess anyway as part of Forest Stalkers.

That's one of the more ridiculous things in the End Times list.Wood Elves lose Forest Stalkers, their all-in-one rule, and replace it with Murderous Prowess.

So the shooty army of death loses their bonus to shooting in woods to get a melee bonus the rest of the time. Yay.

Except thedarkavenger is talking about the Host of the Eternity King list.

WE lose Forest Stalkers and gain Martial Prowess, Murderous Prowess and Forest Strider in exchange.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Glade Guard have Murderous Prowess anyway as part of Forest Stalkers.

That's one of the more ridiculous things in the End Times list.Wood Elves lose Forest Stalkers, their all-in-one rule, and replace it with Murderous Prowess.

So the shooty army of death loses their bonus to shooting in woods to get a melee bonus the rest of the time. Yay.

So rerolling all failed rolls to wound and firing in an extra rank isn't a bonus? Remember. The cauldron buff applies to ALL failed rolls to wound. Not just combat.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Glade Guard have Murderous Prowess anyway as part of Forest Stalkers.

That's one of the more ridiculous things in the End Times list.Wood Elves lose Forest Stalkers, their all-in-one rule, and replace it with Murderous Prowess.

So the shooty army of death loses their bonus to shooting in woods to get a melee bonus the rest of the time. Yay.

So rerolling all failed rolls to wound and firing in an extra rank isn't a bonus? Remember. The cauldron buff applies to ALL failed rolls to wound. Not just combat.

In your area. Not true everywhere.

To be fair it does here too, the rule is actually pretty clear.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Glade Guard have Murderous Prowess anyway as part of Forest Stalkers.

That's one of the more ridiculous things in the End Times list.Wood Elves lose Forest Stalkers, their all-in-one rule, and replace it with Murderous Prowess.

So the shooty army of death loses their bonus to shooting in woods to get a melee bonus the rest of the time. Yay.

So rerolling all failed rolls to wound and firing in an extra rank isn't a bonus? Remember. The cauldron buff applies to ALL failed rolls to wound. Not just combat.

In your area. Not true everywhere.

If you interpret it any other way, please relearn English.

I'm using the RAW translation of the rule.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Glade Guard have Murderous Prowess anyway as part of Forest Stalkers.

That's one of the more ridiculous things in the End Times list.Wood Elves lose Forest Stalkers, their all-in-one rule, and replace it with Murderous Prowess.

So the shooty army of death loses their bonus to shooting in woods to get a melee bonus the rest of the time. Yay.

So rerolling all failed rolls to wound and firing in an extra rank isn't a bonus? Remember. The cauldron buff applies to ALL failed rolls to wound. Not just combat.

In your area. Not true everywhere.

If you interpret it any other way, please relearn English.

I'm using the RAW translation of the rule.

I'm not disputing RAW. Not everywhere plays everything RAW. If your banking an entire army on one unit with an odd rule, I'd make sure it is going to work how you think it is in your locale, before you buy, build and paint the army.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Glade Guard have Murderous Prowess anyway as part of Forest Stalkers.

That's one of the more ridiculous things in the End Times list.Wood Elves lose Forest Stalkers, their all-in-one rule, and replace it with Murderous Prowess.

So the shooty army of death loses their bonus to shooting in woods to get a melee bonus the rest of the time. Yay.

So rerolling all failed rolls to wound and firing in an extra rank isn't a bonus? Remember. The cauldron buff applies to ALL failed rolls to wound. Not just combat.

In your area. Not true everywhere.

If you interpret it any other way, please relearn English.

I'm using the RAW translation of the rule.

I'm not disputing RAW. Not everywhere plays everything RAW. If your banking an entire army on one unit with an odd rule, I'd make sure it is going to work how you think it is in your locale, before you buy, build and paint the army.

It's not an odd rule. It's a rule being applied properly.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Glade Guard have Murderous Prowess anyway as part of Forest Stalkers.

That's one of the more ridiculous things in the End Times list.Wood Elves lose Forest Stalkers, their all-in-one rule, and replace it with Murderous Prowess.

So the shooty army of death loses their bonus to shooting in woods to get a melee bonus the rest of the time. Yay.

So rerolling all failed rolls to wound and firing in an extra rank isn't a bonus? Remember. The cauldron buff applies to ALL failed rolls to wound. Not just combat.

In your area. Not true everywhere.

If you interpret it any other way, please relearn English.

I'm using the RAW translation of the rule.

I'm not disputing RAW. Not everywhere plays everything RAW. If your banking an entire army on one unit with an odd rule, I'd make sure it is going to work how you think it is in your locale, before you buy, build and paint the army.

It's not an odd rule. It's a rule being applied properly.

adjective, odder, oddest.
1. differing in nature from what is ordinary, usual, or expected:

Usually murderous power only works in combat. Nothing else gives re-rolls to wound. It makes it unusual, and out of the ordinary.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Glade Guard have Murderous Prowess anyway as part of Forest Stalkers.

That's one of the more ridiculous things in the End Times list.Wood Elves lose Forest Stalkers, their all-in-one rule, and replace it with Murderous Prowess.

So the shooty army of death loses their bonus to shooting in woods to get a melee bonus the rest of the time. Yay.

So rerolling all failed rolls to wound and firing in an extra rank isn't a bonus? Remember. The cauldron buff applies to ALL failed rolls to wound. Not just combat.

In your area. Not true everywhere.

If you interpret it any other way, please relearn English.

I'm using the RAW translation of the rule.

I'm not disputing RAW. Not everywhere plays everything RAW. If your banking an entire army on one unit with an odd rule, I'd make sure it is going to work how you think it is in your locale, before you buy, build and paint the army.

It's not an odd rule. It's a rule being applied properly.

adjective, odder, oddest.
1. differing in nature from what is ordinary, usual, or expected:

Usually murderous power only works in combat. Nothing else gives re-rolls to wound. It makes it unusual, and out of the ordinary.

It's only odd if you purposefully misinterpret it.

The ONLY time murderous prowess comes into it is as a requirement to gain the benefits of the rule.

And now back to discussing how to choose which units you want in your new combined elf army ....

As the CoB is a good choice (either way the ruling works) what unit are going to run with it?

Eternal Guard are looking great to me as higher WS, Int, Leadership, armor piercing and stubbern in a core unit sounds great and stacks well with multple spell lores?
Witch Elves for the pure killing power but glass cannon style?
White lion bunker for more durability and higher str and adding the BotWD for laughing at magic?
Phoenix Guard for it will not die bunker?

Thinking of trying a twin tower list with lots of light calv/flying units in frosty and gaint eagles to get the charges I want.

A note on the magic though with the new magic rules though I am pretty sure it calls out the Loremaster of Hoeth in that he gets all the signature spells and than gets all the spells for all 8 basic lores though I could be wrong on that...

The magic rules are going to be special scenario related, not a blanket rule that affects all WHFB/EoT games

bzdanny wrote:
And now back to discussing how to choose which units you want in your new combined elf army ....

As the CoB is a good choice (either way the ruling works) what unit are going to run with it?

Eternal Guard are looking great to me as higher WS, Int, Leadership, armor piercing and stubbern in a core unit sounds great and stacks well with multple spell lores?
Witch Elves for the pure killing power but glass cannon style?
White lion bunker for more durability and higher str and adding the BotWD for laughing at magic?
Phoenix Guard for it will not die bunker?

Thinking of trying a twin tower list with lots of light calv/flying units in frosty and gaint eagles to get the charges I want.

A note on the magic though with the new magic rules though I am pretty sure it calls out the Loremaster of Hoeth in that he gets all the signature spells and than gets all the spells for all 8 basic lores though I could be wrong on that...

Yeah, the Loremaster knows every Battle Magic spell in the game now, but he can only use d6 casting dice per turn (or it might be per spell, not 100% certain on that).

Does the Loremaster know any spells that can give a unit a save? 'cause otherwise the Eternal Guard have a kind of big weakness in their 6+ saves.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

bzdanny wrote:
And now back to discussing how to choose which units you want in your new combined elf army ....

As the CoB is a good choice (either way the ruling works) what unit are going to run with it?

Eternal Guard are looking great to me as higher WS, Int, Leadership, armor piercing and stubbern in a core unit sounds great and stacks well with multple spell lores?
Witch Elves for the pure killing power but glass cannon style?
White lion bunker for more durability and higher str and adding the BotWD for laughing at magic?
Phoenix Guard for it will not die bunker?

Thinking of trying a twin tower list with lots of light calv/flying units in frosty and gaint eagles to get the charges I want.

A note on the magic though with the new magic rules though I am pretty sure it calls out the Loremaster of Hoeth in that he gets all the signature spells and than gets all the spells for all 8 basic lores though I could be wrong on that...

Yeah, the Loremaster knows every Battle Magic spell in the game now, but he can only use d6 casting dice per turn (or it might be per spell, not 100% certain on that).

Does the Loremaster know any spells that can give a unit a save? 'cause otherwise the Eternal Guard have a kind of big weakness in their 6+ saves.

It's only loremastery of lores you choose. He doesn't choose any. Same reason unit casters don't get it.

Is the Everqueen/Ariel as Avatar of Isha in the new list?

Also isn't there at least one High Elf Vampire princess now?

bzdanny wrote:
And now back to discussing how to choose which units you want in your new combined elf army ....

As the CoB is a good choice (either way the ruling works) what unit are going to run with it?

Eternal Guard are looking great to me as higher WS, Int, Leadership, armor piercing and stubbern in a core unit sounds great and stacks well with multple spell lores?
Witch Elves for the pure killing power but glass cannon style?
White lion bunker for more durability and higher str and adding the BotWD for laughing at magic?
Phoenix Guard for it will not die bunker?

Sword Masters horde?
I'm thinking witch elves are still best.
If stubborn and higher stats are all that awesome, why don't we see black guard as the main line cauldron unit?
Eternal Guard are interesting, being slightly cheaper than most other options and coming with armor piercing, but lacking poison really hampers what they can hit effectively.

IMO, the only reason to not use witch elves is that you want to run a bunch of characters in the unit, and you're worried that the witches will off the character.

Sorry Guys, looks like the new magic is scenario specific and, for balances sake, won't be played in normal games. Give up your dreams on those Purple Sunning Warlocks or those Loremaster:Warhammer people outside of very specific circumstances.

Ariel/Everqueen joined up with Malekith, which means she is a part of the Court of the Eternity King list. She is ridiculous though! A 4+ regen save to everything within 12 is hilarious, especially when everyone regains a wound. It's like she was custom built to make Treekin and Treemen Ancients (Star works on them) unkillable without flaming (But die like...trees, to flaming). Add that to being Loremaster Life and a level 5 Wizard she looks like an incredible choice. Not to mention it will be hilarious when she beats a Greater Daemon in single combat due to striking first, wounding on 2's with re-rolls doing D6 wounds.

Great rules, I'm just sad she isn't Ariel :( My model will be converted to have butterfly wings in homage to our Wood Elf queen.

Looking at the spell page right now and it says under spell generation that you no longer use the Warhammer Rulebook but instead pick the lore you going to use when you choose your army but instead know all the spells for the spell lore chosen. Right below that paragraph is another one describing what happens when a wizard that generate spells not using normal rules (for example the Loremaster of Hoeth ... which is the example used) use their special rules to generate spells but will know ALL (it is in italics) of the spells from EACH lore that they can use spells from (trying not to copy and paste to much there).

Soooooo Loremaster of Hoeth knows all 56(?) spells and the poor warlocks who are so terrible know all of shadow and death (sarcasm)

Second of all for using the new magic rules ... is a bit of jerk move as it lists 4 conditions that if you can meet you have to use the rules (allowing of course for the people playing saying they won't) which are in brief:

Scenario calls for it
If one of the players is using one of the elven hosts from the book (which I will be)
If someone is using one of the new characters/units(?!)
If one of the players wants to use the new rules ... (Which is kinda interesting as it leads to ... P1 "I don't want to use the new magic rules" P2 " I want to" P1 " Well I guess i have to ...")

Other interesting notes you roll 4d6, 12 dice limit is removed (for both), you get the 2 highest dispel dice, you can keep casting a spell as many times as you like as long as you don't fail (in any ways), even if you do fail to cast a spell you can keep going but just can't cast that spell now, you can only cast "End times spells or spells with casting values of 15+ once (including boosting), and finally each time you cast a spell you roll a D6 to see how many dice you can use (minimum 1) and same for dispell.

The big balance is while you can cast more spells per turn you won't be able to reliable 5/6 dice spells anymore ... go to cast that Pit of Shadows and roll a 1 on your D6 is almost an auto out. However it makes the lower level spells just that more useful as you can keep blasting away and in my mind at least makes mages cooler as now rather than 1/2 big spells followed by a miscast, they are slinging out multiple spells all over the place. It also makes lower level mages not as bad because it is random to get the dice needed so it leads to interesting builds .. do you go for the multiple hero level mages for more lores or the one big caster?

I was also looking at Ariel/Everqueen to put in my COK/Eternal guard bunker but not sure if it would be worth it or just to do a Madusa Shrine instead ... so many choices now.

Blackguard I have written off as to $$ in terms of points ... unless thinking about it putting them in with Ariel/everqueen which would give them their sudo ward save again.

Well back to the drawing board again but at least I know the army scheme is going to be black and red with bronze armor as I go for a nice mix of the 3 armies styles.

Loremasters, warlocks, sisters and horrors don't choose lores. They just know x number of spells from y number of lores.

Horrors are lvl 1 of tz or undeath, so they hot a choice.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Loremasters, warlocks, sisters and horrors don't choose lores. They just know x number of spells from y number of lores.

Here let me re-post part of my first paragraph: Right below that paragraph is another one describing what happens when a wizard that generate spells not using normal rules (for example the Loremaster of Hoeth ... which is the example used in the book (added that)) use their special rules to generate spells but will know ALL (it is in italics) of the spells from EACH lore that they can use spells from (trying not to copy and paste to much there).

So the above mentioned units don't generate spells using the normal rules and instead know X spells from Y lore and thus will know ALL of the spells from EACH lore that can use spells from.

So yes they are all basically broken knowing their full lore(s) but general liking the change as I don't have to fear the 6 dice IF casts of doom every round anymore (thought with elves I really only fear 1 ....) as you only have a 1/3 chance of getting the dice to cast the spell followed by getting a high enough cast to cast it and it not getting dispelled/scrolled.

Thinking about it Sisters are now a 1+ for elves as they know life and beast ..... just wow. Thrones up will boost the life spells and dwellers on a fast cav with a decent shooting attack? Along with Wizzy form for that sweet +1/1 will help my poor low T elves survive.

Only downside so far is that I want to many things and my lists keep ending up with all support and no meat to do some actual work.

Currently waiting on Apple to take the funds for my iBook. It's taking its time.

It's almost like GW don't want my money for this product...

UPDATE: Preorders feths up ibooks. Had to log into itunes to cancel it, and repurchase.

Didn't you know iBooks are a fad?

bzdanny wrote:

Other interesting notes you roll 4d6, 12 dice limit is removed (for both), you get the 2 highest dispel dice, you can keep casting a spell as many times as you like as long as you don't fail (in any ways), even if you do fail to cast a spell you can keep going but just can't cast that spell now, you can only cast "End times spells or spells with casting values of 15+ once (including boosting), and finally each time you cast a spell you roll a D6 to see how many dice you can use (minimum 1) and same for dispell.

So my Slann takes Wandering Deliberations and also gets 56 spells? Sweet!

Is "Not enough Power" rule still in effect? Hopefully it is, otherwise it just gets silly.

If not, my Vampire Counts are looking stupidly good; Having a Level 4 with a +2 to cast mortis engine, +1 to cast item, and +D3 to cast titan is nuts. I'll be casting at a +8 to +10. He could 1 die Gaze of Nagash ~14 or so times, and erase whole units. Or summon a stupid number of zombies. That's easily ~300 zombies created in a single magic phase.

The basic casting rules of rolling under a certain amount across all your dice are still in effect so 1D6 everything won't work all the time and even 2D6 might fail sometimes like normal but one mis-cast on your vampire and it is IF and you roll twice of the chart with the oppentant choosing which one.

You are correct on the loads of zombies though .... luckly no one plays undead at my local GW (or at least has enough zombies to make it matter) so escaping that bullet!

bzdanny wrote:
Second of all for using the new magic rules ... is a bit of jerk move as it lists 4 conditions that if you can meet you have to use the rules (allowing of course for the people playing saying they won't) which are in brief:

Scenario calls for it
If one of the players is using one of the elven hosts from the book (which I will be)
If someone is using one of the new characters/units(?!)
If one of the players wants to use the new rules ... (Which is kinda interesting as it leads to ... P1 "I don't want to use the new magic rules" P2 " I want to" P1 " Well I guess i have to ...")

Do you have to satisfy all the conditions, or at least one?

To be honest I like these new rules, it makes mages flexible within their role, but also a gamble.