Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Heh, another example of GW writers not understanding scale...

 Psienesis wrote:
Heh, another example of GW writers not understanding scale...

There's a lot of things that GW writers get wrong. For example, Imperial tanks don't have night vision gear. That's why the models have giant searchlights on top. Even Space Marine tanks.

But yet just about any elite unit from the Imperium has night vision integrated in their helmets.

 Bobthehero wrote:
But yet just about any elite unit from the Imperium has night vision integrated in their helmets.

No. They don't.

If they do, it's crappy, since elite Imperial units don't get the Night Vision SR.

GW is a model company first.

The tank models have search lights. Vehicle-sized night vision is easier to create than portable-size, especially integrated into a suit of armor.

References to night vision, like the problems Psi has with Imperial scale, are bad writing. The damned tank models have giant search lights for a reason. They don't have better night vision gear.

Yes they do, says so in the codex.

Why don't they have night fight is beyond me.

Now, I know you really like the blue little people, but your opinion does not invalide the 'dex.

The Tau Empire is an oppressive, Imperialistic and utilitarian state with visions of manifest destiny. There is no self determination in the Tau Empire. You either do and feel what they tell you to or you die.

I don't know, they seem like major dicks to me.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Yes they do, says so in the codex.

Why don't they have night fight is beyond me.

Now, I know you really like the blue little people, but your opinion does not invalide the 'dex.

No. The MODEL invalidates the 'dex.

Games Workshop, by its own statement, is a company that makes models first and everything else second.

Imperial tanks have search lights on them. Tau, Eldar, Necron, and Dark Eldar tanks do not... for various reasons.

The search light could be there for the benefit of regular ol' Joe.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
The Tau Empire is an oppressive, Imperialistic and utilitarian state with visions of manifest destiny. There is no self determination in the Tau Empire. You either do and feel what they tell you to or you die.

I don't know, they seem like major dicks to me.

The Imperium is an oppressive, Imperialistic state with visions of manifest destiny. In this case, that there is *any* moral guidance in their basic worldview- even if you don't like J.S. Mills- is an improvement over literally every other faction in the game.

The Tau Empire offers lots of self-determination. With actual Tau, it just so happens that they've evolved to like the stuff they do. Aliens that side with the Tau largely keep doing what they were doing before. The niccausar still explore space, the kroot still eat sentient beings to gain their powers, humans still do human things.

The Tau allow defeated enemies to flee, rather than spilling blood needlessly. If you are the sort of person who thinks that a Right to Life is a moral principle, the Tau are easily the only good guys in the galaxy. Allowing the defeated Imperials of the Damocles Crusade to flee, rather than grinding them to paste the way every other 40k race would, shows that they are, deep down, not bad guys.

Aight, screw that, there's a button that'll fix everything there.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
The search light could be there for the benefit of regular ol' Joe.

Not likely. Imperial Army doctrine mandates that regiments be made of similar units. Tank regiments, infantry regiments, drop troop regiments, artillery regiments... combined arms happens above the regiment level. It'd seem odd to put them on, say, Basilisks for the benefit of infantry, since basilisks are supposed to be nowhere near the front lines.

That is, of course, a secondary concern. The much better argument is, "If the search lights are there for the troops, and Space Marines have night vision, then why the feth do Space Marine tanks have search lights also?"

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
The Tau Empire is an oppressive, Imperialistic and utilitarian state with visions of manifest destiny. There is no self determination in the Tau Empire. You either do and feel what they tell you to or you die.

I don't know, they seem like major dicks to me.

The Imperium is an oppressive, Imperialistic state with visions of manifest destiny. In this case, that there is *any* moral guidance in their basic worldview- even if you don't like J.S. Mills- is an improvement over literally every other faction in the game.

The Tau Empire offers lots of self-determination. With actual Tau, it just so happens that they've evolved to like the stuff they do. Aliens that side with the Tau largely keep doing what they were doing before. The niccausar still explore space, the kroot still eat sentient beings to gain their powers, humans still do human things.

The Tau allow defeated enemies to flee, rather than spilling blood needlessly. If you are the sort of person who thinks that a Right to Life is a moral principle, the Tau are easily the only good guys in the galaxy. Allowing the defeated Imperials of the Damocles Crusade to flee, rather than grinding them to paste the way every other 40k race would, shows that they are, deep down, not bad guys.

No independence, though. Gotta be part of the Tau Empire or we'll come n' blow you up. I'm not saying the Imperium is any better, they're the second biggest dicks in the galaxy, but the Tau are still evil. I don't know,, call me old fashioned, but telling someone "Join me or suffer" is an evil thing to do.

As for the Damocles Crusade thing I'll admit that it's better than what the Imperi- Ehh... the Orks would do.

One thing I noticed in the book fire caste iirc is when a human asks the tau why put up with the castes why not if a warrior wants to be a builder let him. To which the tau replied because other wise there would be chaos suggesting most tau don't want to be in the military.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Yes they do, says so in the codex.

Why don't they have night fight is beyond me.

Now, I know you really like the blue little people, but your opinion does not invalide the 'dex.

No. The MODEL invalidates the 'dex.

Games Workshop, by its own statement, is a company that makes models first and everything else second.

Imperial tanks have search lights on them. Tau, Eldar, Necron, and Dark Eldar tanks do not... for various reasons.

Are you so woefully undereducated on the subject of military history that you do not even know what search lights were historically used for. Because if you really, really are suggesting that they are used in combat, I'm about to laugh you out of the thread, maybe draw some other people to joint in with me as well. Searchlights even in WWII were not used to spot enemy vehicles at night. In fact they were never used in combat outside of anti-aircraft targeting to highlight bombers for other flak guns to target, such as in the Battle of London.

What searchlights are actually used for is lighting the way ahead of them clearly so you don't accidentally ram or run over bob the friendly infantryman escorting your tank, or ramming another tank. Or driving off a tank. Even with IR scopes you need lights unless you have cameras, as the peripheral vision of cameras simply doesn't exist.

Did the fact that every vehicle that doesn't have floodlights or searchlights is a skimmer completely escape your mind. Or maybe the poster of Commander Farsight is giving you tunnel vision?


I seriously suggest you load up either ARMA II or ARMA III, and try to run a combined arms mission purely in night-vision without accidentally running anyone over. Or driving off a cliff.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Yes they do, says so in the codex.

Why don't they have night fight is beyond me.

Now, I know you really like the blue little people, but your opinion does not invalide the 'dex.

No. The MODEL invalidates the 'dex.

Games Workshop, by its own statement, is a company that makes models first and everything else second.

Imperial tanks have search lights on them. Tau, Eldar, Necron, and Dark Eldar tanks do not... for various reasons.

Are you so woefully undereducated on the subject of military history that you do not even know what search lights were historically used for. Because if you really, really are suggesting that they are used in combat, I'm about to laugh you out of the thread, maybe draw some other people to joint in with me as well. Searchlights even in WWII were not used to spot enemy vehicles at night. In fact they were never used in combat outside of anti-aircraft targeting to highlight bombers for other flak guns to target, such as in the Battle of London.

What searchlights are actually used for is lighting the way ahead of them clearly so you don't accidentally ram or run over bob the friendly infantryman escorting your tank, or ramming another tank. Or driving off a tank. Even with IR scopes you need lights unless you have cameras, as the peripheral vision of cameras simply doesn't exist.

Did the fact that every vehicle that doesn't have floodlights or searchlights is a skimmer completely escape your mind. Or maybe the poster of Commander Farsight is giving you tunnel vision?


I seriously suggest you load up either ARMA II or ARMA III, and try to run a combined arms mission purely in night-vision without accidentally running anyone over. Or driving off a cliff.

Just one problem- the Predator tank (I didn't check any others) seems to actually have headlights modeled on it. Look to the left and right of the driver's view ports. That's how it doesn't drive off of the road.

What reinforces this is the Land Speeder- an Imperial skimmer that has lights (no searchlight) on the model.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Yes they do, says so in the codex.

Why don't they have night fight is beyond me.

Now, I know you really like the blue little people, but your opinion does not invalide the 'dex.

No. The MODEL invalidates the 'dex.

Games Workshop, by its own statement, is a company that makes models first and everything else second.

Imperial tanks have search lights on them. Tau, Eldar, Necron, and Dark Eldar tanks do not... for various reasons.

Are you so woefully undereducated on the subject of military history that you do not even know what search lights were historically used for. Because if you really, really are suggesting that they are used in combat, I'm about to laugh you out of the thread, maybe draw some other people to joint in with me as well. Searchlights even in WWII were not used to spot enemy vehicles at night. In fact they were never used in combat outside of anti-aircraft targeting to highlight bombers for other flak guns to target, such as in the Battle of London.

What searchlights are actually used for is lighting the way ahead of them clearly so you don't accidentally ram or run over bob the friendly infantryman escorting your tank, or ramming another tank. Or driving off a tank. Even with IR scopes you need lights unless you have cameras, as the peripheral vision of cameras simply doesn't exist.

Did the fact that every vehicle that doesn't have floodlights or searchlights is a skimmer completely escape your mind. Or maybe the poster of Commander Farsight is giving you tunnel vision?


I seriously suggest you load up either ARMA II or ARMA III, and try to run a combined arms mission purely in night-vision without accidentally running anyone over. Or driving off a cliff.

Just one problem- the Predator tank (I didn't check any others) seems to actually have headlights modeled on it. Look to the left and right of the driver's view ports. That's how it doesn't drive off of the road.

What reinforces this is the Land Speeder- an Imperial skimmer that has lights (no searchlight) on the model.

And yet the Chimera doesn't.



At best this is simply an inconsistency, otherwise it's likely used in actual use to provide greater range of sight (as those who drive can testify, compared to a searchlight headlights can't see anything forty feet ahead of them) and blind enemies looking directly at it. Especially considering the headlamps on the Rhino are probably incapable of illuminating objects close to the tank or far away.

(Searchlights have stupid range for increasing sight by the optical spectrum of light at night, especially in WWII where the lamps were said to have ranges even extending to five kilometers.)

 Wyzilla wrote:


And yet the Chimera doesn't.



At best this is simply an inconsistency, otherwise it's likely used in actual use to provide greater range of sight (as those who drive can testify, compared to a searchlight headlights can't see anything forty feet ahead of them) and blind enemies looking directly at it. Especially considering the headlamps on the Rhino are probably incapable of illuminating objects close to the tank or far away.

(Searchlights have stupid range for increasing sight by the optical spectrum of light at night, especially in WWII where the lamps were said to have ranges even extending to five kilometers.)

The best answer may not be that it is an oversight. Lots of design considerations that seem like common sense to us fail to appear in IG vehicles. For example, it also appears that the driver lacks a periscope or anything else that would give him vision of anything not immediately in front of him. it seems the only way to see is to subject one's self to sniper fire.

I also hate to break this to you... but I'm not sure Imperial Guard combat doctrine includes night movement at all. Maybe that's why the Tau routinely use night fighting to rape the IG in fluff.

Do you have an explanation for why the Landspeeder has headlights? It's a skimmer, after all, and supposedly skimmers don't need to worry about hitting things. That's why you said xenos skimmers don't have them.

(As an aside, while looking at my Hammerhead, I just remembered how the HH has what can only be break/turn signal lights on its rear, so that things behind it can know where its going, and how awesome that is that someone thought to include those).

You're not going to convince Norton he's wrong. He clings to the idea that despite all the evidence to the contrary, Imperials don't have night vision technology, because without that one lynchpin his entire argument that Tau Are Better actually falls down completely, and then he would have no idea what to say or do.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
You're not going to convince Norton he's wrong. He clings to the idea that despite all the evidence to the contrary, Imperials don't have night vision technology, because without that one lynchpin his entire argument that Tau Are Better actually falls down completely, and then he would have no idea what to say or do.

The Tau have lots of things they do better than the Imperium... the search light vs night vision one is just the funniest.

Why would anyone use Search Lights to illuminate their targets at night? That's just... stupid. Also, Leman Russ tanks are stated to have a suite of sensor equipment including passive night vision. So, what this tells us is that the rules don't accurately reflect the fluff. Again. Otherwise Night Fighting would be an utterly pointless mechanic.

The Codex Militarum Tempestus outrights states that their helmet visors allow the scions to see in low-light mode.

Besides what do you think that little visor is on the left guy's helmet?

 Robbert Ambrose wrote:
The Codex Militarum Tempestus outrights states that their helmet visors allow the scions to see in low-light mode.

Besides what do you think that little visor is on the left guy's helmet?

Looks like a HUD, or some kind of scope. It could have night vision or maybe not. It's likely that the IG has some kind of night vision. It makes logical sense and the IG is as snowflakey as you get, so you can have both, but I rather like the style idea of an advanced army without any advancements. I like the idea that the radio is still the size of a backpack (I don't like the micro bead), or that you call in an artillery strike with grid marks rather then GPS, and I like the idea that the tanks are playing macro polo in the dark with spotlights. Too much tech and sense can ruin the IG.

So yes the IG maybe has night vision, but don't point it out or put emphases on it because it takes away from their style.

Scouter. :p

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Why would anyone use Search Lights to illuminate their targets at night? That's just... stupid. Also, Leman Russ tanks are stated to have a suite of sensor equipment including passive night vision. So, what this tells us is that the rules don't accurately reflect the fluff. Again. Otherwise Night Fighting would be an utterly pointless mechanic.

You got it backwards. Fluff should reflect rules, not the other way around. Models are the primary source in 40k. When anything is in conflict, look at the model. Rules flow from the model, not people writing about the model. Otherwise, if C.S. Goto wrote about, say, Eldar falcon tanks using a 155 mm howitzer instead of its actual weapon, both rules and model would be wrong.

Fluff should follow models, then rules,otherwise you can make up pretty much anything you want- maybe the Leman Russ is actually a flying tank, fueled by two Slaaneshi demons running on treadmills inside of it with a gun that shoots unicorns. The Leman Russ actually has magic armor that hurls fireballs at its attackers. If people can write whatever they want (and while the Black Library has never been that ridiculous, they've occasionally come close) then it doesn't matter what anything else says, including any other writers.

Okay, so, by that logic only one or two Space Marines only carries bolt pistols, Guardsman are as tall as Space Marines, Bastions are really just big empty towers with a false door, Leman Russ tank have no crew inside them, only about 4-5 Space Marines can really fit in a Rhino, Tank Commanders are really just a weird mechanical form of a Centaur and Smoke Launchers are either hollow or solid chunks of metal.

We have to assume there are things that the model isn't showing. Just because the Leman Russ model doesn't have a fancy little camera on top doesn't mean it lacks night vision equipment. And no, I think the rules should follow the lore a little more closely. I play 40k for it's story not for it's gakky rules.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Okay, so, by that logic only one or two Space Marines only carries bolt pistols, Guardsman are as tall as Space Marines, Bastions are really just big empty towers with a false door, Leman Russ tank have no crew inside them, only about 4-5 Space Marines can really fit in a Rhino, Tank Commanders are really just a weird mechanical form of a Centaur and Smoke Launchers are either hollow or solid chunks of metal.

We have to assume there are things that the model isn't showing. Just because the Leman Russ model doesn't have a fancy little camera on top doesn't mean it lacks night vision equipment. And no, I think the rules should follow the lore a little more closely. I play 40k for it's story not for it's gakky rules.

Yes, it does mean that. The model and rules give us no reason to believe the LR can see in the dark without lights. 2 out of 3. Simply because someone who doesn't play the game or build the models says something is true doesn't make it true.

So if I hold my Eartshaker 3 feet in the air it means Earthshaker carriages can fly now?

 Bobthehero wrote:
So if I hold my Eartshaker 3 feet in the air it means Earthshaker carriages can fly now?

No, but by your logic if C.S. Goto writes that one did and it made it past the editor, then yes it can.

Fine. That also means that your vanted Hammerhead gunship is an equal if not slightly inferior AT vehicle in comparison to the Leman Russ vanquisher. The Vanquisher glances the Hammerhead on a roll of a 5 with 2d6. The Hammerhead requires a 4 on a Leman Russ tank. Admittedly, the Hammerhead is 16% more likely to blow up the Leman Russ but the LR has a better chance of doing damage to the Hammerhead.

Actually, I would say that the Hammerhead is better at blowing up light vehicles where the Vanquisher fares better against heavy tanks. So they're equal. So much for the 1:5 ratio, eh?

We can dismiss parts of the fluff, the stupid ones.

Scions and SM have nightvision gear, says so in the codex and that's it.

Its funny you use the fluff when it comes to Hammerhead vs Leman Russes would mean that the HH win when they're outnumbered 5 to 1, on the TT, 5 LR would tear a HH in pieces, but the second the Imperium might get something nice out of their fluff its all ''OMG MODELS! AND RULES''