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 Bobthehero wrote:
We can dismiss parts of the fluff, the stupid ones.

Scions and SM have nightvision gear, says so in the codex and that's it.

Its funny you use the fluff when it comes to Hammerhead vs Leman Russes would mean that the HH win when they're outnumbered 5 to 1, on the TT, 5 LR would tear a HH in pieces, but the second the Imperium might get something nice out of their fluff its all ''OMG MODELS! AND RULES''

On an Armageddon-sized tabletop, the superior range and/or power of the HH (not to mention superior survivability from disruption pods and being skimmers) will allow it to punk the LR just as hard as it does in fluff.

Not 5 on 1 the LR battle cannon can match the rail gun range and they could get in range of their lascannon, it gets even more one sided when you add in the LR vanquisher pattern.

The Battle Cannon/Vanquisher battle cannon has the same range as the Railgun and there is nothing inherently more survivable about being a skimmer unless you want to be firing Snap Shots. Admittedly, it's not a bad cover save but the Leman Russ will be firing at you at full BS while your tank will be hitting back with BS:1. Oh, and a Vanquisher cannon is S: 8 AP 2 with a 2D6 penetration as opposed to the HH's S:10 AP:1 with only 1D6 penetration. One isn't majorly superior to the other.

Oh yeah, and LRBTs can also mount Lascannons. They bring more gun to the fight. Yeah, 5 on one will leave the Hammerhead creamed.

There is a big strategic mobility difference being a skimmer, though granted this is a fluff aspect rather than tabletop aspect.

Imperial Armour I lists the Leman Russ tank at 32 kph max on-road speed and 19 kph max off-road speed. The Hammerhead is listed in Imperial Armour 3 as having 70 kph max speed, ignoring terrain.

A Hammerhead formation should be running rings around any given Leman Russ formation if it were an even fight, or able to disengage and not fight until it suited them. This is exactly what happened on Taros, with the Hammerheads hitting and running and wearing down the Imperial tanks in the open desert.

The advantage of skimmers in their complete ignoring of terrain has larger scale ramifications as well. For example n the Planetstrike book, it describes a Craftworld Eldar attack on an Imperial world. The Eldar skimmer forces assembled in the middle of the ocean, and fly around the main defensive lines (which ended at the shore) and main Imperial column to strike at targets in the Imperial rear.

Of course the Imperium having the advantage of numbers means it probably would not be a 1:1 ratio of Hammerhead to Leman Russ units, and the Imperium can afford a lopsided disadvantageous exchange rate if it still wins in the end.

Or splatter the HH with Earth shaker and Manti cores.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Not 5 on 1 the LR battle cannon can match the rail gun range and they could get in range of their lascannon, it gets even more one sided when you add in the LR vanquisher pattern.

Fun fluffy fact about the Vanquisher- it's hard to make. It's currently made on only one world, since the 'Nids recently over-ran the other.

The Tau Empire, small as it is, handily out-produces the Imperium on the Vanquisher vs Hammerhead lineup.

The lascannon has too short of a range to matter in any encounter not on a tableop that is artificially small. They wouldn't ever factor in.

The outright awful targeting capability of the LR Battlecannon does, however. Tau have a BS advantage.

Moreover, the superior speed allows a force of Hammerheads to engage part of the Imperial formation at will, trade rounds, and flee before the full brunt of an Imperial tank regiment can arrive.... or mass up, pick off a few Russes as they arrive, and flee to abetter position as numbers stop favoring them. Fluff-wise, it's a well-known fact that cover-camping and then fleeing is basic Tau strategy, and charging stupidly into an enemy line counting on numbers to carry the day is basic Imperial strategy.

I thought the fluff was something to be disregarded as you can make up any ol' crap you want.

Doesn't matter because we can still squadron Vanquisher and buy them therefore the Imperium can still make them, yes? yes.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I thought the fluff was something to be disregarded as you can make up any ol' crap you want.

I think fluff should be discarded when it clashes with the model or rules, in that order.

Since you don't, however, I'm sure you'll admit I have a point instead of trying to ignore the points I made.

just devil's advocate..but the big ole searchlight on imperial armor could be a IR search light..and not white light...just sayin.

resume apple vrs orange debate

You guys, please start a different thread if you want to argue this.

Why you guys persist to engage with Norton I do not know... he never changes his mind, he is not going to be convinced by any amount of logic, sound reasoning, swearing or thwacks to the back of the head. He's just that much of a troll.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I thought the fluff was something to be disregarded as you can make up any ol' crap you want.

I think fluff should be discarded when it clashes with the model or rules, in that order.

Since you don't, however, I'm sure you'll admit I have a point instead of trying to ignore the points I made.

The models are inherrently flawed. By your logic everyone in the Imperium has giant bulbous heads, Leman Russes have something like a 200mm+ cannon, autgons are fifty caliber or even greater, etc.

The tabletop is a game and thus constrained by game mechanics. Logically none of it should ever be believed besides the fluff and information in the codices and BRB, the game mechanics and the game itself is just that, a game. Judging Halo by its game mechanics is asinine, just as it would be to assume the game mechanics and models of a WWII TT game reflect real life.

Of course, your logic is always inherently flawed given your hilarious degree of bias, trolling, trying to cram everything into an agenda, and your constant use of strawmen.

In fact, you've highjacked this entire thread simply to force people into attacking your strawmen.

The best things about the Tau Empire are its negative traits. It's unique among the factions in that it is multidimensional in a setting where most things can, on the whole, be taken at face value. It's mix of utopian Stalinism with racial hierarchy and scientific advancement unburdened by traditional notions of morality make for a very cool army that is as insidious as it is admirable within the context of the 40k universe.

It serves as a stark contrast to the imperium. In a vacuum they would be the evil expansionist alien empire, akin to Japan's Greater Far East Co Prosperity Sphere. But within the 40k galaxy they make you do a double take and wonder if they might just be the lesser of so many evils.

Trying to argue 40k has a specific 'way' it works is pretty pointless, because if the fandom has proven anything, it proves that people look at the setting in different ways. Some of those ways may overlap amongst certain people, but they also differ dramatically with others. And this includes what people deem 'accurate' or 'acceptable' sources of the setting. There's pros and cons with each different way, and there is no easy answer.

That said, I don't suspect the Tau vs Imperium rivalry will ever die. Too much alike, and too much rivals and also different in many ways. It is kind of bizarre to try and paint one side or the other as being exclusively GOOD GUY or BAD GUY in the process though, since 40K tends not to operate on a simplistic good/bad dynamic (if it operates on any such bipolar dynamic its order vs Chaos, if even that.)

Also I would like to point out that when it comes to night vision stuff, there are lots of different ways its accomplished. including an active night vision type that involves illumination:

"Active night vision systems operate at infrared wavelengths near the visible spectrum (0.7 - 3.0 μm). They have their own infrared light source that illuminates the objects at a significant distance ahead on the road where the headlights cannot reach. The reflected infrared light is captured by infrared cameras. Some systems use a constant light source, while others use pulsed infrared light. Active night vision systems provide clear monochromatic images of the road ahead and its surroundings."

Ironically, BL used to host a supplementary material source for the Imperial Munitorum manual covering vehicles, and it had an entry discussing searchlights:

Munitorum Manual: Artillery and vehicles wrote:Searchlights are on many types of tanks and generally furnish two types of illumination: white light and infrared light. Depending on the terrain, enemy situation, and cloud cover, searchlights may provide direct illumination or reflected illumination from low clouds. Searchlights can mark targets, objectives, or boundaries. They can also be used to increase deception by illuminating an area or point outside the intended area of action. It should ALWAYS be remembered that the tank employing the searchlight is easily detected and extremely vulnerable. Searchlights should only be used when no other system for battlefield illumination is available.

Just saying. Technology be wonderfully and endlessly complicated and a source of awe and wonder at what is possible.

 Las wrote:
The best things about the Tau Empire are its negative traits. It's unique among the factions in that it is multidimensional in a setting where most things can, on the whole, be taken at face value. It's mix of utopian Stalinism with racial hierarchy and scientific advancement unburdened by traditional notions of morality make for a very cool army that is as insidious as it is admirable within the context of the 40k universe.

It serves as a stark contrast to the imperium. In a vacuum they would be the evil expansionist alien empire, akin to Japan's Greater Far East Co Prosperity Sphere. But within the 40k galaxy they make you do a double take and wonder if they might just be the lesser of so many evils.

That's the point.

The true Grimdarkness of the Tau is that they're the closest to being "good" by the standards of rational human beings.

Of course, there are some people, like Psi, who don't accept this. He rules out, reflexively, that anyone who doesn't look like him must be more evil than those who look like him, even in games.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
That's the point.

The true Grimdarkness of the Tau is that they're the closest to being "good" by the standards of rational human beings.

Of course, there are some people, like Psi, who don't accept this. He rules out, reflexively, that anyone who doesn't look like him must be more evil than those who look like him, even in games.

If that's the point, why do you keep trying to argue against it?

Anyway, I think you're missing something. Your last sentence should read "especially in games." at the end.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
That's the point.

The true Grimdarkness of the Tau is that they're the closest to being "good" by the standards of rational human beings.

Of course, there are some people, like Psi, who don't accept this. He rules out, reflexively, that anyone who doesn't look like him must be more evil than those who look like him, even in games.

If that's the point, why do you keep trying to argue against it?

Anyway, I think you're missing something. Your last sentence should read "especially in games." at the end.

... I'm not 100% convinced that's how it should read.

I argue against what? The Tau aren't America, but they're a lot better than Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia, both of which are utopias compared to the Imperium of Man.

Tau are the goodest guys. Humanity only has a future if, somehow, the Tau win in the 41k time frame.

... you constantly cry 'thats not true' any time anyone actually brings up a negative trait of the Tau empire. Try again.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
... you constantly cry 'thats not true' any time anyone actually brings up a negative trait of the Tau empire. Try again.

... she says in a thread where intended purpose by the OP is to make the Tau sound worse than they are. Go back to page 1.

If you'd like, I could list the numerous qualities, say, Sweden has that the Tau don't, but it seems really fething stupid to point of "negative qualities" that are shared by every race in the galaxy.

Would you like me to point out that they don't have elected leaders? Would it make you feel good to hear that there isn't enough self-determination in their society? Maybe you'd like me to say it'd be nice if the Tau would offer Farsight a pardon?

I can- but in any other faction, Farsight would have been killed, tyrants rule unopposed with little to no consideration for their underlings, and you're mostly born to what you're born to.

In the setting, the Tau are a ray of shining hope in the black. It doesn't matter if it's nearly UV and not very bright. It's hope. The only hope for a better tomorrow.

No, actually. What I want is for you to give us as harsh and uncompromising a list of Tau negative qualities as you can find. Every little thing the Tau do that isn't completely, unarguably Good, I want you to list them and tell us every single way in which the Tau are evil.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
No, actually. What I want is for you to give us as harsh and uncompromising a list of Tau negative qualities as you can find. Every little thing the Tau do that isn't completely, unarguably Good, I want you to list them and tell us every single way in which the Tau are evil.

Their society isn't evil. It's naive and uncompromising and undemocratic, but it isn't evil.

Hell- when was the last time in 40k that you heard of an army allowing a defeated enemy to flee a battlefield unmolested?

The Tau did that at the end of the Damocles Crusade.

No, don't change the subject. Give me your list of undesirable Tau traits.

Not 'relative to the Imperium'. Not 'Compared to the Eldar'. Just outright negative traits that exist in the Tau Empire, in absolute terms.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Las wrote:
The best things about the Tau Empire are its negative traits. It's unique among the factions in that it is multidimensional in a setting where most things can, on the whole, be taken at face value. It's mix of utopian Stalinism with racial hierarchy and scientific advancement unburdened by traditional notions of morality make for a very cool army that is as insidious as it is admirable within the context of the 40k universe.

It serves as a stark contrast to the imperium. In a vacuum they would be the evil expansionist alien empire, akin to Japan's Greater Far East Co Prosperity Sphere. But within the 40k galaxy they make you do a double take and wonder if they might just be the lesser of so many evils.

That's the point.

The true Grimdarkness of the Tau is that they're the closest to being "good" by the standards of rational human beings.

Of course, there are some people, like Psi, who don't accept this. He rules out, reflexively, that anyone who doesn't look like him must be more evil than those who look like him, even in games.

Well, the whole point of my post is that they are undoubtably evil.

It's important to understand that you can interpret the fluff a lot of different ways. (Personally I like the tau as the good guy foil that reminds us how evil the IoM is.)

I think the best way to do evil tau is kind of a day the earth stool still kind of way. Alien judgment. The tau do declare some races beyond saving (orks, nids, the reek). I kind of wonder why the tau didn't do this with the IoM too. I mean how do you include the crazy xenophobics in your star empire of many races. Maybe sterilization and retraining?

 Las wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Las wrote:
The best things about the Tau Empire are its negative traits. It's unique among the factions in that it is multidimensional in a setting where most things can, on the whole, be taken at face value. It's mix of utopian Stalinism with racial hierarchy and scientific advancement unburdened by traditional notions of morality make for a very cool army that is as insidious as it is admirable within the context of the 40k universe.

It serves as a stark contrast to the imperium. In a vacuum they would be the evil expansionist alien empire, akin to Japan's Greater Far East Co Prosperity Sphere. But within the 40k galaxy they make you do a double take and wonder if they might just be the lesser of so many evils.

That's the point.

The true Grimdarkness of the Tau is that they're the closest to being "good" by the standards of rational human beings.

Of course, there are some people, like Psi, who don't accept this. He rules out, reflexively, that anyone who doesn't look like him must be more evil than those who look like him, even in games.

Well, the whole point of my post is that they are undoubtably evil.

Much less so than the USA when we expanded westward. What the Tau is doing is essentially that, except they're actually trying to incorporate the natives into their Empire instead of engaging in genocide and double-dealing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
No, don't change the subject. Give me your list of undesirable Tau traits.

Not 'relative to the Imperium'. Not 'Compared to the Eldar'. Just outright negative traits that exist in the Tau Empire, in absolute terms.

They're undemocratic and naive. Their society lacks social mobility for Tau (everyone else seems to maintain, for the most part, the societies they had pre-Empire, so that's really just Tau). They're also unwilling to try and rehabilitate a comrade that's become confused. They should show him more understanding.

That's it. The list, start to finish. There's nothing else bad about them.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Las wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Las wrote:
The best things about the Tau Empire are its negative traits. It's unique among the factions in that it is multidimensional in a setting where most things can, on the whole, be taken at face value. It's mix of utopian Stalinism with racial hierarchy and scientific advancement unburdened by traditional notions of morality make for a very cool army that is as insidious as it is admirable within the context of the 40k universe.

It serves as a stark contrast to the imperium. In a vacuum they would be the evil expansionist alien empire, akin to Japan's Greater Far East Co Prosperity Sphere. But within the 40k galaxy they make you do a double take and wonder if they might just be the lesser of so many evils.

That's the point.

The true Grimdarkness of the Tau is that they're the closest to being "good" by the standards of rational human beings.

Of course, there are some people, like Psi, who don't accept this. He rules out, reflexively, that anyone who doesn't look like him must be more evil than those who look like him, even in games.

Well, the whole point of my post is that they are undoubtably evil.

Much less so than the USA when we expanded westward. What the Tau is doing is essentially that, except they're actually trying to incorporate the natives into their Empire instead of engaging in genocide and double-dealing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
No, don't change the subject. Give me your list of undesirable Tau traits.

Not 'relative to the Imperium'. Not 'Compared to the Eldar'. Just outright negative traits that exist in the Tau Empire, in absolute terms.

They're undemocratic and naive. Their society lacks social mobility for Tau (everyone else seems to maintain, for the most part, the societies they had pre-Empire, so that's really just Tau). They're also unwilling to try and rehabilitate a comrade that's become confused. They should show him more understanding.

That's it. The list, start to finish. There's nothing else bad about them.

They're not just "un democratic" they're a predatory, aggressive fascist dictatorship with a society based on racial and social hierarchy.

I always thought that the Tau were quite literally space fascists.
They've got all the hallmarks, a fiercely racialised society, huge amounts of nationalism, a caste system and utter worship and cult of personality of the ethereals.
They're also expansionist and remind me heavily of post-meiji japan.
But that's just me!

They're a oligarchical, tyrannical and aggressively expansionist regime. They are not good folks. They're just not as horrible as the other groups in the galaxy.

 Inky wrote:
I always thought that the Tau were quite literally space fascists.
They've got all the hallmarks, a fiercely racialised society, huge amounts of nationalism, a caste system and utter worship and cult of personality of the ethereals.
They're also expansionist and remind me heavily of post-meiji japan.
But that's just me!

Unlike Japan, they're actually bringing enlightenment to the races that align with them. Life for the average IoM citizen improves when he joins the Tau. The Jungle-esque working conditions that are the norm of Imperial industry disappear and are replaced by Tau drones.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
They're a oligarchical, tyrannical and aggressively expansionist regime. They are not good folks. They're just not as horrible as the other groups in the galaxy.

Expansion isn't necessarily bad.

The oligarchy is part of their biological makeup, not something artificially enforced by bloodthirsty tyrants, like it is in the IoM. It's like you're saying ants are bad because they have queens and monarchy is wrong.

When the Kroot signed up, their leaders didn't get replaced. Kroot society remained almost exactly as it was, except now they mostly fight for the Tau and the Greater Good instead of just because they like it.