Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

They just said they weren't sticking to it. They didn't say they couldn't use it (basically what d-usa said).

squidhills wrote:

 reds8n wrote:
I think that's something of a change though.

Have some (vague) recollections that back in the day of the West End Games d6 based game you had to have ..err...... either Control or Sense powers ( don't think it was alter ?) to be able to use a light saber without maiming yourself.

Naw, WEG Star Wars said anyone with hands could swing a lightsaber, but if you missed the base difficulty of the attack roll (which was always a Difficult 20-25) you hit yourself with the blade. You needed Control and Sense powers to be able to deflect blaster bolts and increase the base damage of the saber. A lightsaber has a base damage of 5D (the same as a blaster rifle) but using the Lightsaber Combat Force ability, a Jedi can increase the damage by a number of dice equal to their relevant Force skill (so you can get sabers doing 15D damage, which is more than enough to cut a tank in half with a flick of the wrist).

...I know this stuff because I've been running a D6 Star Wars campaign since 1994. One of my current players has obtained a lightsaber (she has no Force ability at all) and has been trying to learn how to use it without a) cutting her own arms off and b) letting the Jedi know she has it in the first place (it fell off the back of a truck, honest!)

Is that 2nd edition? First edition Lightsabres had their own skill (as opposed to all the rest of the melee weapons) and if you did a successful parry with one, you cut a melee weapon apart or damaged the person trying to punch you. Nothing about hitting yourself on a miss.

Sense allowed you to parry (and redirect) blaster bolts and control increased sabre damage ( which started ar 4d not 5d if memory serves). Ran a campaign back in '88 or so. Unfortunately lost my books when I moved to PA :(

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I thought the Mouse said it was all the EU after ROTJ

Everything that is not the movies, the 3D Clone Wars TV series, the original novelizations of the movies, and the new "official newcanon Star Wars Books" is canon. Everything else is gone.

The cynical side of me suspects this is so with two time-lines, the Mouse can profit off both and reap in even more money by creating two separate continuities. Like how Marvel runs numerous alternate universes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hordini wrote:
They just said they weren't sticking to it. They didn't say they couldn't use it (basically what d-usa said).

No. Word of God from Disney that the EU is up in smoke and shoved over to the new Legends continuity.

That's not what they said. They said all the current EU stuff is being pushed to Legends, and that the new films would be part of a new canon that wouldn't be aligned with the previous EU. Now, I agree with you that most of the EU probably won't be used. But nothing that they have said so far has said that they have confined themselves to not using anything from the current EU, only that they are not beholden to it. It is possible that they may use characters or portions of story lines from the EU. Whether or not it is likely is another story, but nothing they have said precludes that possibility.

 Hordini wrote:
That's not what they said. They said all the current EU stuff is being pushed to Legends, and that the new films would be part of a new canon that wouldn't be aligned with the previous EU. Now, I agree with you that most of the EU probably won't be used. But nothing that they have said so far has said that they have confined themselves to not using anything from the current EU, only that they are not beholden to it. It is possible that they may use characters or portions of story lines from the EU. Whether or not it is likely is another story, but nothing they have said precludes that possibility.

Exactly.

Star Wars is basically in the same position as the new Star Trek movies.

After the first movie everything Star Trek that was canon wasn't anymore (as far as the current movies are concerned). They were not confined to the Khan storyline being exactly the same as the series or Wrath of Khan because the whole "oh no, we messed with time and everything is different now" thing going on and they made that clear that the movie franchise is a blank slate now. But that didn't mean that they couldn't cherry-pick stuff they liked and build new stories around them (like Khan still being in the new series, even though his old apperances are no longer "canon" in the new timeline).

Just because in the EU doesn't mean that it will be in the movies, true. But just because it's in the EU doesn't mean that it won't be in the movies either.

Like I said, Schroedinger's Star Wars.

 d-usa wrote:

 Hordini wrote:
That's not what they said. They said all the current EU stuff is being pushed to Legends, and that the new films would be part of a new canon that wouldn't be aligned with the previous EU. Now, I agree with you that most of the EU probably won't be used. But nothing that they have said so far has said that they have confined themselves to not using anything from the current EU, only that they are not beholden to it. It is possible that they may use characters or portions of story lines from the EU. Whether or not it is likely is another story, but nothing they have said precludes that possibility.

Exactly.

Star Wars is basically in the same position as the new Star Trek movies.

After the first movie everything Star Trek that was canon wasn't anymore (as far as the current movies are concerned). They were not confined to the Khan storyline being exactly the same as the series or Wrath of Khan because the whole "oh no, we messed with time and everything is different now" thing going on and they made that clear that the movie franchise is a blank slate now. But that didn't mean that they couldn't cherry-pick stuff they liked and build new stories around them (like Khan still being in the new series, even though his old apperances are no longer "canon" in the new timeline).

Just because in the EU doesn't mean that it will be in the movies, true. But just because it's in the EU doesn't mean that it won't be in the movies either.

Like I said, Schroedinger's Star Wars.

Except they pushed the EU explicitly into its own continuity, Marvel style. We have no reason to ever believe that they will use anything from the EU in the new movies, and even if they do it is highly unlikely to resemble the original material.

Hence why Wookieepedia has divided up all of its pages into Legends and Canon tabs.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Except they pushed the EU explicitly into its own continuity, Marvel style. We have no reason to ever believe that they will use anything from the EU in the new movies, and even if they do it is highly unlikely to resemble the original material.

Hence why Wookieepedia has divided up all of its pages into Legends and Canon tabs.

You mean like how Marvel has some of the same characters and storylines in both continuities?

 Wyzilla wrote:
Except they pushed the EU explicitly into its own continuity, Marvel style. We have no reason to ever believe that they will use anything from the EU in the new movies, and even if they do it is highly unlikely to resemble the original material.

Hence why Wookieepedia has divided up all of its pages into Legends and Canon tabs.

Except we have no reason to ever believe that they won't use anything from the EU in the new movies because no one from Lucasfilm of Disney has made that claim. I don't know what is so difficult to understand about their current position regarding the EU: its no longer cannon but it is in no way off limits. You're complaining about a problem that doesn't really exist.

Also, Wookieepedia is not official Star Wars lore. It's a fansite version of the Holocron and it's veracity should be treated as such.

 Hordini wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Except they pushed the EU explicitly into its own continuity, Marvel style. We have no reason to ever believe that they will use anything from the EU in the new movies, and even if they do it is highly unlikely to resemble the original material.

Hence why Wookieepedia has divided up all of its pages into Legends and Canon tabs.

You mean like how Marvel has some of the same characters and storylines in both continuities?

You mean like how those characters are entirely unrelated to each other as well?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Except they pushed the EU explicitly into its own continuity, Marvel style. We have no reason to ever believe that they will use anything from the EU in the new movies, and even if they do it is highly unlikely to resemble the original material.

Hence why Wookieepedia has divided up all of its pages into Legends and Canon tabs.

Except we have no reason to ever believe that they won't use anything from the EU in the new movies because no one from Lucasfilm of Disney has made that claim. I don't know what is so difficult to understand about their current position regarding the EU: its no longer cannon but it is in no way off limits. You're complaining about a problem that doesn't really exist.

Also, Wookieepedia is not official Star Wars lore. It's a fansite version of the Holocron and it's veracity should be treated as such.

Uh, the discussion with the current head of Lucasfilm says otherwise. Everything that wasn't the movies, novelizations of the movies, and the 3D Clone Wars TV show was declared non-canon. She made it fairly clear cut in the discussion.

Canon =/= not included.

Jesus being the Son of God isn't Canon in the Koran, but Jesus is still in the book.

(That has to be a square somehow...)

 Wyzilla wrote:

Uh, the discussion with the current head of Lucasfilm says otherwise. Everything that wasn't the movies, novelizations of the movies, and the 3D Clone Wars TV show was declared non-canon. She made it fairly clear cut in the discussion.

Oh. My. God.

Uh, yes, we all understand that the current EU is no longer cannon. However, no one has said that it is off limits for the new films or other projects. Quite the contrary, it's been made pretty clear that the EU (or "Legends" as it is known) is fair game as inspiration and certainly not off-limits.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Uh, the discussion with the current head of Lucasfilm says otherwise. Everything that wasn't the movies, novelizations of the movies, and the 3D Clone Wars TV show was declared non-canon. She made it fairly clear cut in the discussion.

Oh. My. God.

Uh, yes, we all understand that the current EU is no longer cannon. However, no one has said that it is off limits for the new films or other projects. Quite the contrary, it's been made pretty clear that the EU (or "Legends" as it is known) is fair game as inspiration and certainly not off-limits.

At least it will be interesting to see what Luke is going to be. Since the EU is off limits he won't be a Jedi, a Dark Jedi, a Jedi Master, train other Jedi's, won't mess with Rogue Squadron, won't fight leftover Empire forces, will never get married, will never have a son, won't be alive nor dead, or do any of the other things that he ever did in some shape or form in the EU.

It will be totally original since anything that happened in the EU is off limits!

 d-usa wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Uh, the discussion with the current head of Lucasfilm says otherwise. Everything that wasn't the movies, novelizations of the movies, and the 3D Clone Wars TV show was declared non-canon. She made it fairly clear cut in the discussion.

Oh. My. God.

Uh, yes, we all understand that the current EU is no longer cannon. However, no one has said that it is off limits for the new films or other projects. Quite the contrary, it's been made pretty clear that the EU (or "Legends" as it is known) is fair game as inspiration and certainly not off-limits.

At least it will be interesting to see what Luke is going to be. Since the EU is off limits he won't be a Jedi, a Dark Jedi, a Jedi Master, train other Jedi's, won't mess with Rogue Squadron, won't fight leftover Empire forces, will never get married, will never have a son, won't be alive nor dead, or do any of the other things that he ever did in some shape or form in the EU.

It will be totally original since anything that happened in the EU is off limits!

Well played, sir.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Uh, the discussion with the current head of Lucasfilm says otherwise. Everything that wasn't the movies, novelizations of the movies, and the 3D Clone Wars TV show was declared non-canon. She made it fairly clear cut in the discussion.

Oh. My. God.

Uh, yes, we all understand that the current EU is no longer cannon. However, no one has said that it is off limits for the new films or other projects. Quite the contrary, it's been made pretty clear that the EU (or "Legends" as it is known) is fair game as inspiration and certainly not off-limits.

The point isn't that it's shrodinger canon. It's quite clear canon that the EU was wiped out. Unless it's pillaged for ideas by Lucasfilm later on, it for all intents and purpose is gone.

And I doubt they'll copy much. It's in much greater interests for them to make the new canon highly differential to coerce consumers into buying into both continuities now. It's a franchise's dream to toss out the old material as a discontinued alternate universe but keep the stuff in print to sell more and make more cash while also creating a new "main" canon so the hardcore fans will buy into both.

The Mouse is as much of a capitalist genius as he is cruel. While some of the EU needed to go due to horrific execution (Han Solo punching space otters for one), some of it was better then the original movies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 d-usa wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Uh, the discussion with the current head of Lucasfilm says otherwise. Everything that wasn't the movies, novelizations of the movies, and the 3D Clone Wars TV show was declared non-canon. She made it fairly clear cut in the discussion.

Oh. My. God.

Uh, yes, we all understand that the current EU is no longer cannon. However, no one has said that it is off limits for the new films or other projects. Quite the contrary, it's been made pretty clear that the EU (or "Legends" as it is known) is fair game as inspiration and certainly not off-limits.

At least it will be interesting to see what Luke is going to be. Since the EU is off limits he won't be a Jedi, a Dark Jedi, a Jedi Master, train other Jedi's, won't mess with Rogue Squadron, won't fight leftover Empire forces, will never get married, will never have a son, won't be alive nor dead, or do any of the other things that he ever did in some shape or form in the EU.

It will be totally original since anything that happened in the EU is off limits!

That's if he isn't hit by a bus off screen. Ford is the only one who still looks like Hollywood material. And even then Ford probably twisted Disney's arm so he'll only join up to get killed off because Ford has always wanted Han to die since ROTJ.

Tough for him. Han died in the EU so he won't...

 Wyzilla wrote:
The point isn't that it's shrodinger canon.

No, the point is you keep repeating over and over again with absolute certainty that the EU is off-limits and gone forever and we'll never see it again. Which, as more than one person has explained to you, just isn't true.

It's quite clear canon that the EU was wiped out.

No, actually it isn't.

Unless it's pillaged for ideas by Lucasfilm later on

Which according to Lucasfilm will happen, because they've said as much.

it for all intents and purpose is gone.

No, actually it isn't.

And I doubt they'll copy much. It's in much greater interests for them to make the new canon highly differential to coerce consumers into buying into both continuities now. It's a franchise's dream to toss out the old material as a discontinued alternate universe but keep the stuff in print to sell more and make more cash while also creating a new "main" canon so the hardcore fans will buy into both.

No, it's their greater interest to make a new story instead of stick the awfulness that was most of the EU because most of it was awful from a film making perspective. If they did stick to the EU, a year from now you'd be on this same thread complaining about how they butchered it. They don't need to worry about gak to make people buy into it; Star Wars is the 5th highest grossing film series of all time and that doesn't even include any of the their merchandising and related properties. Besides, the writers have made it pretty clear that they are taking inspiration from the EU and other sources when writing new storylines.

The Mouse is as much of a capitalist genius as he is cruel. While some of the EU needed to go due to horrific execution (Han Solo punching space otters for one), some of it was better then the original movies.

Disagree on both counts. The EU needed to go, it was too bloated to ever make a successful translation to film.

Just gimmie Thrawn being Thrawn-like one day and I'll be happy.

 d-usa wrote:
Since the EU is off limits he won't be a Jedi

All other things aside, at the end of Return of the Jedi Luke was a Jedi, so "Legends" or no it is canon that Luke became one. It is even in the title of the movie and everything.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Everything that is not the movies, the 3D Clone Wars TV series, the original novelizations of the movies, and the new "official newcanon Star Wars Books" is canon. Everything else is gone.

Also, the new Marvel comics of SW. Those will also be canon.


Brace for Impact.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Hordini wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Except they pushed the EU explicitly into its own continuity, Marvel style. We have no reason to ever believe that they will use anything from the EU in the new movies, and even if they do it is highly unlikely to resemble the original material.

Hence why Wookieepedia has divided up all of its pages into Legends and Canon tabs.

You mean like how Marvel has some of the same characters and storylines in both continuities?

You mean like how those characters are entirely unrelated to each other as well?

If you really believe that the characters in the Marvel comics universe and the Marvel film universe are entirely unrelated to each other, I don't know what to tell you.

Are you saying the movies are continuations of the comics?

 Hordini wrote:
If you really believe that the characters in the Marvel comics universe and the Marvel film universe are entirely unrelated to each other, I don't know what to tell you.

Not 'completely' unrelated, as the movie characters are clearly based on the comic version. But they're two completely separate continuities.

 insaniak wrote:

 Hordini wrote:
If you really believe that the characters in the Marvel comics universe and the Marvel film universe are entirely unrelated to each other, I don't know what to tell you.

Not 'completely' unrelated, as the movie characters are clearly based on the comic version. But they're two completely separate continuities.

Yes, with the MCU being heavily inspired by events and storylines from multiple continuities from the comics (especially the Ultimate imprint).

Very similar to what we are trying to explain to Wyzilla regarding what is likely going to happen with Star Wars: new stories with a mix of old and new characters with some of it based on preexisting lore (the EU) and some of it not.

I was wondering, if this hasn't been answered before, but if Storm troopers are not Clone troopers then why did the Imperial forces stop using them?
Budget cuts? Clone Facility destroyed? or was it a one series deal only?

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
I was wondering, if this hasn't been answered before, but if Storm troopers are not Clone troopers then why did the Imperial forces stop using them?
Budget cuts? Clone Facility destroyed? or was it a one series deal only?

It took a long time and lots of credits to make that batch so they probably either were unable or unwilling to keep making them. It is cheaper to train men than make them, probably.

Well, in the old continuity, there was a Clone rebellion by Kamino. So they moved cloning to other facilities and started using multiple templates.

Also, the Clones have several disadvantages.

1) While they age faster and you can get a soldier from an infant in half the time, they also still age faster. So the useful life of that soldier is half of what it would be for a non-clone. A 40 year old human is still in prime shape. a 40 year old clone is equivalent to an 80 year old human. the last thing you want in your army.

2) Identical genes, even if you have a half dozen templates, is a major problem. Someone could easily engineer a virus that attacked a specific weakness and have it take down every clone of that template it encountered.

Ultimately, the Empire has an entire galaxy of humans it can pull from. So man power shouldn't be a problem, thus cloning to save time doesn't make sense. And since normal humans last twice as long as a clone its a better long term investment.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well, in the old continuity, there was a Clone rebellion by Kamino. So they moved cloning to other facilities and started using multiple templates.

Also, the Clones have several disadvantages.

1) While they age faster and you can get a soldier from an infant in half the time, they also still age faster. So the useful life of that soldier is half of what it would be for a non-clone. A 40 year old human is still in prime shape. a 40 year old clone is equivalent to an 80 year old human. the last thing you want in your army.

2) Identical genes, even if you have a half dozen templates, is a major problem. Someone could easily engineer a virus that attacked a specific weakness and have it take down every clone of that template it encountered.

Ultimately, the Empire has an entire galaxy of humans it can pull from. So man power shouldn't be a problem, thus cloning to save time doesn't make sense. And since normal humans last twice as long as a clone its a better long term investment.

It's been a ridiculously long time since I read any SW book material, but IIRC.... wasn't there a law made by the Senate at some point that made cloning and using clones illegal? Now, I've seen discussions relating to this "fact", but there's still the issues of the Empire is a fething massive machine, and they need constant bodies for that machine, so it's been "rumored" that even though it was illegal, the Empire was still using clones, either supplementing the ranks of real humans with clones, or using other means of "hiding" the clones.

I don't know of any law like that that was passed, but I highly doubt that such a law would have been passed.

The Emperor would never have allowed a law like that to get passed.

 Grey Templar wrote:

The Emperor would never have allowed a law like that to get passed.

That depends, imo. The Emperor, we know is a Sith lord. Depending on what point of the story line you're at, no one else really knows what he is. He prefers operating his Sithiness from the shadows (How many times were Obi-Wan and Qui Gonn, or Yoda, or Anakin, or Sam Jackson, etc. RIGHT NEXT TO HIM!!! they must have rolled pretty gakky on their "Detect Evil" spells ), as such, He cannot do too much overtly, and probably would have seen the vetoing of an anti-clone bill as pushing too close to his personal boundary (as in, if he had vetoed, people may have begun to suspect)

 skyth wrote:
Is that 2nd edition? First edition Lightsabres had their own skill (as opposed to all the rest of the melee weapons) and if you did a successful parry with one, you cut a melee weapon apart or damaged the person trying to punch you. Nothing about hitting yourself on a miss.

Sense allowed you to parry (and redirect) blaster bolts and control increased sabre damage ( which started ar 4d not 5d if memory serves). Ran a campaign back in '88 or so. Unfortunately lost my books when I moved to PA :(

Yup, 2nd Edition. It's the one I have the books for, and the one that has the best rules IMHO. I looked at D20 SW and my head spun 'round like the girl in the Exorcist. I've stayed away from Saga Edition, because it is still based on D20 and you cannot polish a turd into anything other than shiny crap. I looked at the FFG SW books and could not wrap my head around their nonsensical dice system. So I still roll with D6, 2nd Ed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I don't know of any law like that that was passed, but I highly doubt that such a law would have been passed.

The Emperor would never have allowed a law like that to get passed.

In the pre-prequel SW canon, there was a law against cloning and genetic technology, stemming from outrage and disgust at the horrors unleashed during the Clone Wars. SW Galaxies makes a direct reference to this in the instruction manual. The D6 SW game books mentioned it several times. It was based on background notes Lucas had for Star Wars which were taken as Gospel until the prequels were released (did you know that Boba Fett originally wasn't a clone of Jango? He was the last surviving Mandalorian Warrior, who were mercenaries who fought for the 'Clone Masters' against the Jedi during the Clone Wars, at least according to the notes left over from ESB).