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I just sat down with my usual opponent to redesign his CSM list.
We both don'T know all to much about CSM list building (which in my case is excusable, he on the other side... *ouch! Stop hitting me!*) so bear with us if the list is not tournament worthy.
It will most likely not go up against any deathstars or high powered lists, but rather DA in its variants.

The general strategy is the following:
The Blastmaster sits back on objectives, as does the Helbrute, shelling targets in range.
The VIndicator advances together with the Forgefiend to form a tough choice - by whom to die first?
The Chaos Bikers try to pop some vehicles and serve as a mobile objective grabber.
The Demon Prince does what Demon Princes do - bash in faces and lick the viscera off of Terminator faces - or what's left of them.
Lastly, the Demonettes outflank together with the Chaos Lord and the Heralds to tie up shooting and cause havoc in the backfields.

Honestly, I'm a bit scared now *stop giggling like an idiot, you son of a... hrmpf*

++ Chaos Space Marines

+ HQ +

Chaos Lord
Bolt Pistol, Mark of Slaanesh, Steed of Slaanesh, Power Axe

Daemon Prince
Axe of Blind Fury, Khorne, Power Armour, Wings

+ Elites +

Helbrute
Missile launcher w/ frag + krak
Plasma cannon

+ Troops +

Noise Marines (Troops)
Noise Marine w/ Blastmaster, 3x Noise Marine w/ Bolter
Noise Champion Bolt Pistol, Combi-bolter

Noise Marines (Troops)
[Icon of Excess, 9x Noise Marine w/ Sonic Blaster
Noise Champion Bolt Pistol, Combi-bolter

+ Fast Attack +

Chaos Bikers
2x Chaos Biker, Mark of Nurgle, 2x Meltagun
Chaos Biker Champion[/b] Bolt Pistol, Combi-Melta

Heldrake
Hades Autocannon

+ Heavy Support +

Chaos Vindicator
Siege Shield

Forgefiend
3 Ectoplasma Cannons

Obliterators
3x Obliterator, Mark of Nurgle

++ Chaos Daemons

+ HQ +

Herald of Slaanesh
Exalted Locus of Beguilement, Psyker Level 1

+ Troops +

Daemonettes of Slaanesh
19x Daemonettes

So, is the list beyond saving? I don't think there's no chance of improving it

I have to say though that this list grew a bit organically... The Helbrute e.g. is the example of him wanting something to fire from the backfield and having only a few points left in the rooster.
The Chaos Bilkers were the replacement I suggested for some Chaos Spawns etc. which kind of leads to this rather heterogenous list.

Chaos Lord can not go with Daemonettes as he does not have the Daemonic Instability rule.

Thanks, didn't know that.
I have a slight incling of CSM from playing against them, but I've never seen or played a CD. That blows the list, as is, apart.

Why give the slaneshi lord a power axe and waste his initiative? Either save points and keep him unmarked or think about using a different weapon. If you do keep him with MoS, give him a steed and get some (unmarked) bikers to tank hits and go outflank something.

As is, you'r lord also has only a 3+ armour save with no invulnerable, and at 2k points, there's going to be quite a few things that can double him out easily on the 1st turn. Since he has an axe (as mentioned above) and MUST issue and accept challenges, with only a 3+ and striking at I1, he's going to die before or as he swings against anything other than a tactical sargent.

The axe of khorne is wasted on the DP as he has AP2 from being a monsterous creature. Give him the black mace as you now get +2 strength, AP2 and don't have to worry about giving yourself a wound and becoming WS1. Also saves him from being Khornate in a mostly Slaneshi force.

I'd reconsider the forgefiend having Ecto plasma as the range is fairly short for what it is and you also have virtually no anti air beyond the Heldrakes vector strikes.

Speaking of the drake, you'll be wanting the bale flamer as opposed to the hades, and you'll very, very rarely get rear armour and an average of 2 str 8 hits isn't going to scare anyone.

3 troops isn't much in a 2k list, but with everything scoring, it's not tooooo bad.

Thanks for your advice! I improved my list a bit. I replaced the Forgefiend with a Chaos Soul Grinder, this should improve the anti air of the army and the Phlegm Bombardmend should still threaten the enemy.
The Herald now rides on the Steed with the Daemonettes and the Chaos Lord drives around with his Melter Biker gang. I hope this improves the Army a bit.


++ Chaos Space Marines ++
+ HQ +
Chaos Lord [Bike, Bolt Pistol, Mark of Slaanesh, Power Armour, Combi-melta]
Daemon Prince [Power Armour, Slaanesh, The Black Mace, Wings]

+ Elites +
Helbrute [Missile launcher w/ frag + krak, Plasma cannon]

+ Troops +
Noise Marines (Troops) [Noise Marine w/ Blastmaster, 3x Noise Marine w/ Bolter]
··Noise Champion [Bolt Pistol, Combi-bolter]
Noise Marines (Troops) [Icon of Excess, 9x Noise Marine w/ Sonic Blaster]
··Noise Champion [Bolt Pistol, Combi-bolter]

+ Fast Attack +
Chaos Bikers [3x Chaos Biker, Mark of Nurgle, 2x Meltagun]
··Chaos Biker Champion [Bolt Pistol]
····Combi-Weapon [Combi-melta]
Heldrake [Baleflamer]

+ Heavy Support +
Chaos Vindicator [Combi-bolter, Siege Shield]
Obliterators [Mark of Nurgle, 3x Obliterator]


++ Chaos Daemons ++
+ HQ +
Daemonic Heralds
··Herald of Slaanesh [Exalted Locus of Beguilement, Psyker Level 1, Steed of Slaanesh]

+ Troops +
Daemonettes of Slaanesh [19x Daemonettes]

+ Heavy Support +
Soul Grinder of Chaos [Daemon of Slaanesh, Phlegm Bombardment]

Slaneshi sould grinder should probably have the torrent flamer as it's meant to close in. The battle cannon phlegm will encourage you to hang back.

Note that 3 BS3 Str 7 skyfire shots is going to be slightly inferior to 8 BS3 Str 8 shots that snapfire against air when killing a flier and decidely less good against ground targets.

Interesting way to run your bike lord, but he's going to be a bit wasted like that. You'd be better off dropping the lord altogether, getting 2x 10 Cultists and running the Noise marines as Elites. Saves you 10 points and gets you 20 bodies.

Alternately, find some points to give your lord a Claw/Fist combo. Means his MoS doesn't go to waste and can still punch tanks to death with the fist and annihilate MEQ with the claw.

You are right, 8 BS3 Str 8 are much better, I will try this out in some matches. I will also replace the lord with cultists.

I appreciate your advices thank you!

I would have left the Forgefiend and gotten rid of the Vindicator. You get a little more range and more firepower with the Forgefiend.

If you are keeping the Vindicator, add on the Havoc launcher as well. Weapon Destroyed results are no joke with that thing, it's much better to have 33% chance to keep the big gun in play than a 50% one.

With regards to the Noise Marines, Icon of Excess is your friend. I would add that to the bigger squad because it's cheap on a per-model basis.

Here's another way to think about your Daemon allies: with the exception of the soulgrinder, you could get all these units through summoning. It might make sense to consider splitting the CSM force into 2 CADs and adding a couple unmarked Level 3 sorcerers with spell familiars that will just be there to summon Daemons. You could get a lot more out of this list without actually having to pay the points, plus you would be getting more psychic points per turn.

Oh yeah, and the plague hulk in IA:13 is better than the Slaanesh Soulgrinder. You can get that for standard CSM lists.

Wouldn't a Combi-Bolter be the cheaper alternative?
After all the main gun is Ordnance, so he would always snap fire the havoc vs. snap firing a Combi-Bolter?

A Havoc launder isn't cheap compared to a Combi-bolter, but any extra weapons help when assigning damage randomly. Even if the demolisher cannon gets hit, the Havoc launcher will do more than a Combi-bolter in terms of damage, and likely also to keep your opponent from now ignoring it now that the main gun is gone and it poses less of a threat. Kill it until it dies.

I'd stick for the combi-bolter, as it has a better chance to do something while your cannon is still there. Anyway, if you loose your cannon you should be mobile cover or tank shocking, not trying to shoot a single blast weapon with no AP. Just save the points, stick with the combi-bolter.

Thairne i am not agree with you.so...

Opr wrote:
Thanks for your advice! I improved my list a bit. I replaced the Forgefiend with a Chaos Soul Grinder, this should improve the anti air of the army and the Phlegm Bombardmend should still threaten the enemy.
The Herald now rides on the Steed with the Daemonettes and the Chaos Lord drives around with his Melter Biker gang. I hope this improves the Army a bit.


++ Chaos Space Marines ++
+ HQ +
Chaos Lord [Bike, Bolt Pistol, Mark of Slaanesh, Power Armour, Combi-melta]
Daemon Prince [Power Armour, Slaanesh, The Black Mace, Wings]

+ Elites +
Helbrute [Missile launcher w/ frag + krak, Plasma cannon]

+ Troops +
Noise Marines (Troops) [Noise Marine w/ Blastmaster, 3x Noise Marine w/ Bolter]
··Noise Champion [Bolt Pistol, Combi-bolter]
Noise Marines (Troops) [Icon of Excess, 9x Noise Marine w/ Sonic Blaster]
··Noise Champion [Bolt Pistol, Combi-bolter]

+ Fast Attack +
Chaos Bikers [3x Chaos Biker, Mark of Nurgle, 2x Meltagun]
··Chaos Biker Champion [Bolt Pistol]
····Combi-Weapon [Combi-melta]
Heldrake [Baleflamer]

+ Heavy Support +
Chaos Vindicator [Combi-bolter, Siege Shield]
Obliterators [Mark of Nurgle, 3x Obliterator]


++ Chaos Daemons ++
+ HQ +
Daemonic Heralds
··Herald of Slaanesh [Exalted Locus of Beguilement, Psyker Level 1, Steed of Slaanesh]

+ Troops +
Daemonettes of Slaanesh [19x Daemonettes]

+ Heavy Support +
Soul Grinder of Chaos [Daemon of Slaanesh, Phlegm Bombardment]

I know you're going mostly slaanesh here, but seeing as you've already got a little Nurgle in the list, I'd advise taking a unit of 3 nurglings as your requisite troop for the allies. put the points you save towards the biggest unit of seekers you can get. I'd in fact shave points from elsewhere in the list to get a max unit of them. I'd also bump the herald to mastery level 2 and a greater reward is a must for +S AP2 weapon.

As it stands now your Lord is not even allowed to join the bikers since they have different marks. I'd drop him in favor of pimping out a unit of Seekers. Or drop the Helbrute if you have to.

The Helbrute might have been better as a Sonic Dread, much fluffier too. Though with a Blastmaster, Missile launcher and Warp Amp that's pretty much double the points of a basic Helbrute.
Then again, with a Vindicator and oblits I'm not sure you'd need a dread/brute at all.