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 Crimson wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Do we have any example of a Marine actually dying of old age, though? The Salamander arguably does not count given that he sat still for 10k years.

Do you have any example of Ratling dying of old age? Orgyn? Even a normal Imperial citizen? This just doesn't come up in the fiction as it is not the focus of the stories, still the statements about the lifespan clearly indicate it is limited, and the logical end point is death. I actually agree that it would be highly unlikely for a marine to die this way, as they are much more likely to be killed in combat before that.


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 Wilson wrote:

Don't know if were counting Chaos marines too but Kharn and Typhus are both 10,100 years old plus.

I suppose that they are loved by Gods though and thus don't count, right?

They indeed do not count. They hang in the warp and are blessed by Chaos Gods.

Ratlings, Ogryns and Normal Imperial citizens are not genetically augmented and unlike Space Marines are not "children" of immortals.
Besides Brother Gravius of the Salamanders survived since the Heresy, That's almost 10k Years, Try again.

Also well off Imperial Citizens take Juvenat treatments to prolong their lives, So they die of old age.

When they die?

Space marines are biologically immortal.


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another thing: the warp does NOT work in paterns. just as a hundred years real-time might be a couple minutes in the warp, it is just as likely for the opposite to happen. therefore, chaos space marines DO count.

We're never going to reach a clear answer on whether they are immortal or not because, as much as both I and Crimson would want otherwise, there's plenty of examples of both so there will always be contradictions. Pretty much everything is in-universe statements, and what isn't (ie BA codex) can be directly disproven by the existence of, say, that Salamander dude.


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 the shrouded lord wrote:

another thing: the warp does NOT work in paterns. just as a hundred years real-time might be a couple minutes in the warp, it is just as likely for the opposite to happen. therefore, chaos space marines DO count.

This is quite important to remember and often disregarded. There might be just as many 100k year old CSM from the Heresy as there are 1k.

Khonsu wrote:

Besides Brother Gravius of the Salamanders survived since the Heresy, That's almost 10k Years, Try again.

He's not disputing that, he's saying that as he sat still, and as Furyou Miko points out, was in a sus-an coma. If he had been up and walking around, would he have lasted nearly as long?

I haven't the book in front of me but looking through the web it mentions that his ship was also lost in the warp before crash landing, is that the case and would that make any difference? I guess not because clearly he had been around for a pretty damn long time. Maybe not the full 10k years, maybe even longer, depending on how the tides of the warp we flowing.

Some other quotes that might be useful

Deathwatch Rulebook, p42 - THE SONS OF SANGUINIUS
The Blood Angels are amongst the longest-lived of all of the Space Marine Chapters, their gene-seed granting a vastly increased lifespan on all who possess it. It is not uncommon, therefore, for a Blood Angel to live for a millennium or more, if death in battle or the Red Thirst does not claim him first.

So a Blood Angel can live for more than a millennia if they don't die beforehand.

2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, P6.
A Space Marine is a genetically enhanced warrior, far stronger and tougher than an ordinary human being. Space Marines can live for several hundred years and they possess extraordinary powers.

5th Edition Codex Space Marines, p16
Although the Codex describes a number of ranks and responsibilities within the headquarters staff, only a very few of these officers actually accompany the Chapter to war. Many are non-combatants of advanced years whose roles are to find and train recruits or administrate the Chapter

I can't find any thing similar in the latest codex, but this seems to be different from the Blood Angels. Where older Space Marines might take on less combat active roles the Blood Angels continue to fight maybe? Perhaps the Blood Angel are better at dodging bullets than other Space Marines. Otherwise you might have 1000s of old fellas wandering around each Chapters keep annoying the young 'uns if every Space Marine lived as long as the Blood Angels.

That's the closest reference to retiring I have been able to find, I don't have the actual sources but they seem legit.

Sus-an is just coma, and surely does not prevent cellular degradation?

 Wilson wrote:

Amoras wrote:
Only in death does duty end!

Dante is the oldest marine with 1100 years old and going strong, as long as you stay under that it should be okey.

Don't know if were counting Chaos marines too but Kharn and Typhus are both 10,100 years old plus.

I suppose that they are loved by Gods though and thus don't count, right?

They might in fact not be ore than a few hundred years old - Residing in the Warp does weird things to time, which is also why there are so many veterans of Chaos - For many of them, the Horus Heresy is rather young a happening and is less than some hundred years old, while others might be 30000 years old and have forgotten why they fight in the first place...

Just... The Warp.

 Wilson wrote:
Don't know if were counting Chaos marines too but Kharn and Typhus are both 10,100 years old plus.
I suppose that they are loved by Gods though and thus don't count, right?

I had meant to add in my prior post that other marines that have "been around" for extended lengths of time is due to time differences in the warp. "Perceived" or actual age limit is correct as listed while the rest of the universe passes time at a faster rate while those are in the warp.
Oddly enough, some of this applies in "real life" of something called "time dilation" where gravity and velocity can produce a different passage of time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation

So spending extended lengths of time on a spaceship (never mind warp travel) can vastly change the time experienced relative to a planet.

 Talizvar wrote:

 Wilson wrote:
Don't know if were counting Chaos marines too but Kharn and Typhus are both 10,100 years old plus.
I suppose that they are loved by Gods though and thus don't count, right?

I had meant to add in my prior post that other marines that have "been around" for extended lengths of time is due to time differences in the warp. "Perceived" or actual age limit is correct as listed while the rest of the universe passes time at a faster rate while those are in the warp.
Oddly enough, some of this applies in "real life" of something called "time dilation" where gravity and velocity can produce a different passage of time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation

So spending extended lengths of time on a spaceship (never mind warp travel) can vastly change the time experienced relative to a planet.

I was just thinking on that, not the real life part, Space Marines use the warp to travel around. They might not have been living in the Warp like the Legion and Renegades might, but they also don't spend all of their time in real space. A warp jump taking 1 month in real space might have taken 1000 years in the warp. So does that effect their age? Would they die en route.

I guess that corresponds though with what I said about the Salamander Gravius being lost in the warp before crash landing.

Well, the Black Legion supplement says that the Legionnaires have 'experienced ten millennia of war', which sounds like they have percieved 10k years to me.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Well, the Black Legion supplement says that the Legionnaires have 'experienced ten millennia of war', which sounds like they have percieved 10k years to me.

Is that the case of every member of the Black Legion though? If it is in reference to the original members, then yes, I would imagine it is true, but the Black Legion is not made up entirely of Chaos Space Marines from that period of time but also includes marines that have been recruited from younger Chapters and Warbands. It must also have new recruits.

Crimson wrote:We have had this discussion many times, and my firm belief is that Marines are perfectly mortal and do age. I base this on Blood Angels having a longer lifespan and ageing slower than other marines as well as to references of Space Marines having a lifespan many times of a normal men (neither of which make sense if they were immortal.) There are also references to old marines retired to training duties. And of course, as with any fluff detail, there is bound to be some vague BL reference that contradicts this, but I think that the mortal marines is the most consistently presented picture.

Were you referring to this, by any chance?

"Space Marines live extended lifetimes - if they do not fall in battle, they can easily live two or three times longer than a normal man, and sometimes far longer."
-- 6E Rulebook p181, 'Forces of the Imperium'

Everything else, in particular relative immortality, is quite simply the Warp (be it via time distortion and age regression or Chaos corruption), or some author's alternate take on the setting. As you said, this discussion keeps coming up again and again, and as we know there is no canon. (not directed at you, but other readers who may still believe that the various sources are intended to portray a consistent setting)

 Ashiraya wrote:
Do we have any example of a Marine actually dying of old age, though? The Salamander arguably does not count given that he sat still for 10k years.

No, he doesn't count because he atrophied to death. You can be biologically immortal, but that doesn't mean you can ignore things like exercise.

Also, no, there is zero evidence in 40k pertaining to Astartes being mortal. The Horus Heresy references them to being immortal all the goddamned time, and need I remind you that the Blood Angel codex in which that fluff is included was written by Matt fething Ward? Especially with the upcoming 'Dex, it's reliability compared to the rest of 40k is dubious at best.

Plus there isn't any record of an Astartes dying of old age.


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 Crimson wrote:
We have had this discussion many times, and my firm belief is that Marines are perfectly mortal and do age. I base this on Blood Angels having a longer lifespan and ageing slower than other marines as well as to references of Space Marines having a lifespan many times of a normal men (neither of which make sense if they were immortal.) There are also references to old marines retired to training duties. And of course, as with any fluff detail, there is bound to be some vague BL reference that contradicts this, but I think that the mortal marines is the most consistently presented picture.

Except your "views" are based on old fluff which would be labelled a Heretic Tome were it in the Black Library. Old fluff is outdated and has zero relevance to modern 40k. The only thing that should be done with it is chucking it into the wastebin for the abomination of even lower quality writing it was.


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 Lynata wrote:

Crimson wrote:We have had this discussion many times, and my firm belief is that Marines are perfectly mortal and do age. I base this on Blood Angels having a longer lifespan and ageing slower than other marines as well as to references of Space Marines having a lifespan many times of a normal men (neither of which make sense if they were immortal.) There are also references to old marines retired to training duties. And of course, as with any fluff detail, there is bound to be some vague BL reference that contradicts this, but I think that the mortal marines is the most consistently presented picture.

Were you referring to this, by any chance?

"Space Marines live extended lifetimes - if they do not fall in battle, they can easily live two or three times longer than a normal man, and sometimes far longer."
-- 6E Rulebook p181, 'Forces of the Imperium'

Everything else, in particular relative immortality, is quite simply the Warp (be it via time distortion and age regression or Chaos corruption), or some author's alternate take on the setting. As you said, this discussion keeps coming up again and again, and as we know there is no canon. (not directed at you, but other readers who may still believe that the various sources are intended to portray a consistent setting)

Considering Veterans are often several centuries old, this is most assuredly bs by even the most remedial common lore. That's simply two or three centuries old, which isn't even an experienced veteran.

Cassius is the oldest living Ultramarine at Several Centuries old. Tellion has over three centuries of Combat, not sure how that makes Cassius the oldest then

These guys seem to be the more extreme end of the age scale. So couldn't 2 - 3 centuries old be accurate, with the sometimes far older being veterans?

 Wyzilla wrote:

Also, no, there is zero evidence in 40k pertaining to Astartes being mortal. The Horus Heresy references them to being immortal all the goddamned time, and need I remind you that the Blood Angel codex in which that fluff is included was written by Matt fething Ward? Especially with the upcoming 'Dex, it's reliability compared to the rest of 40k is dubious at best.

Fluff about long lifespans of Blood Angels was not invented by Ward, it has existed at least since 2nd edition.

Except your "views" are based on old fluff which would be labelled a Heretic Tome were it in the Black Library. Old fluff is outdated and has zero relevance to modern 40k. The only thing that should be done with it is chucking it into the wastebin for the abomination of even lower quality writing it was.

Luckily it is not in the Black Library, which is basically glorified fanfiction. BL novels have terrible consistency and I, for one, do not take them seriously.


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 Pilau Rice wrote:
Cassius is the oldest living Ultramarine at Several Centuries old. Tellion has over three centuries of Combat, not sure how that makes Cassius the oldest then

Cassius is nearly four hundred, Telion is probably about 50 years younger than him.

 Crimson wrote:


Cassius is nearly four hundred, Telion is probably about 50 years younger than him.

I take several as being 3, but I guess my maths might be off

 Crimson wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Also, no, there is zero evidence in 40k pertaining to Astartes being mortal. The Horus Heresy references them to being immortal all the goddamned time, and need I remind you that the Blood Angel codex in which that fluff is included was written by Matt fething Ward? Especially with the upcoming 'Dex, it's reliability compared to the rest of 40k is dubious at best.

Fluff about long lifespans of Blood Angels was not invented by Ward, it has existed at least since 2nd edition.

Which means it's old. 3rd Edition at best is where modern 40k "started', although it came more into its current form by 4th.

Except your "views" are based on old fluff which would be labelled a Heretic Tome were it in the Black Library. Old fluff is outdated and has zero relevance to modern 40k. The only thing that should be done with it is chucking it into the wastebin for the abomination of even lower quality writing it was.

Luckily it is not in the Black Library, which is basically glorified fanfiction. BL novels have terrible consistency and I, for one, do not take them seriously.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

I take several as being 3, but I guess my maths might be off

'Several' is terribly vague, and could mean pretty much anything. However, 'almost four hundred' was stated in the previous codex.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Well, the Black Legion supplement says that the Legionnaires have 'experienced ten millennia of war', which sounds like they have percieved 10k years to me.

Is that the case of every member of the Black Legion though? If it is in reference to the original members, then yes, I would imagine it is true, but the Black Legion is not made up entirely of Chaos Space Marines from that period of time but also includes marines that have been recruited from younger Chapters and Warbands. It must also have new recruits.

Correct, the Black Legion recruit like everyone else. The passage I mentioned specifically speaks of the old Legionnaires, the veterans of the Heresy, who are not at all portrayed as insignificant in number.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Which means it's old. 3rd Edition at best is where modern 40k "started', although it came more into its current form by 4th.

The BA lifespan has been referred several times in many publications. And your notion that 3rd or 4th editions were somehow big fluff changes are completely groundless. Fluff has been mostly unchanged since the 2nd edition.

Your views on them are irrelevant and worthless considering they're made and published by GW as they're first party work. If GW didn't like their content, they wouldn't publish them. "I don't like this medium therefore it doesn't exist" isn't an argument at all. It's attempting to avoid even acknowledging the problem, especially when the Black Library is better written then the Codices.

I did not say that. I stated my personal reasons for not taking BL seriously. And of course your notion that BL is better written than the codices is completely a personal opinion as well.

Wyzilla wrote:Considering Veterans are often several centuries old, this is most assuredly bs by even the most remedial common lore. That's simply two or three centuries old, which isn't even an experienced veteran.

I guess that makes Marneus Calgar an "inexperienced veteran", then, as per the information about his age as provided in the codices?

"Of all the fighting formations that make up a Space Marine Chapter, it is the 1st Company which is most feared. For a Space Marine to join the 1st Company is for him to have won renown on battlefields uncounted and to have earned the respect of his Battle-Brothers through deeds of blood and fire. Most such veterans have served as sergeants elsewhere - sometimes for centuries - before being accepted into the First Company, but a notable few are elevated after performing insane acts of heroism."

If "common lore" is the novels for you, that's entirely your choice. Just don't complain to me that when writing their codices, GW sticks to their own ideas of what Space Marines are, instead of adopting the aberrant clusterfeth that is the "popular" Black Library stuff, where most people seem to draw their background information from nowadays.

Wyzilla wrote:Your views on them are irrelevant and worthless considering they're made and published by GW as they're first party work. If GW didn't like their content, they wouldn't publish them. "I don't like this medium therefore it doesn't exist" isn't an argument at all. It's attempting to avoid even acknowledging the problem, especially when the Black Library is better written then the Codices.

This has nothing to do with GW liking or not liking the content of some freelancing author. This has to do with different people having different ideas about the setting - and GW being totally fine with that.

I feel there's a need to reiterate once again:

"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."
-- Gav Thorpe

"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
-- Andy Hoare

"There is no canon. There's a variety of sources, many of which conflict, but every single one is a lens through which we can see the 40K setting."
-- Aaron Dembski-Bowden

Pilau Rice wrote:Cassius is the oldest living Ultramarine at Several Centuries old. Tellion has over three centuries of Combat, not sure how that makes Cassius the oldest then

Telion is one of the oldest Ultramarines and has served under three different Chapter Masters. And he has not "over" three centuries of combat experience, but "three centuries of service". The original source does not use "over" in this context. Don't just trust fan-edited wikis like Lexicanum with their sometimes twisted wording without at least checking the original material they supposedly refer to.

And Cassius is almost four centuries old, so there is no contradiction.

Again: All of this depends on where you look. Pick your preferred answer, just be aware of what it says where. Why do people even see a reason to argue here?

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Well, the Black Legion supplement says that the Legionnaires have 'experienced ten millennia of war', which sounds like they have percieved 10k years to me.

Is that the case of every member of the Black Legion though? If it is in reference to the original members, then yes, I would imagine it is true, but the Black Legion is not made up entirely of Chaos Space Marines from that period of time but also includes marines that have been recruited from younger Chapters and Warbands. It must also have new recruits.

Correct, the Black Legion recruit like everyone else. The passage I mentioned specifically speaks of the old Legionnaires, the veterans of the Heresy, who are not at all portrayed as insignificant in number.

Like I said then, I would imagine that those ones had experienced 10 millennia of war. I was just making the comment as not every member of the Black Legion would have. It's a bit of a blanket statement.

 Lynata wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Cassius is the oldest living Ultramarine at Several Centuries old. Tellion has over three centuries of Combat, not sure how that makes Cassius the oldest then

Telion is one of the oldest Ultramarines and has served under three different Chapter Masters. And he has not "over" three centuries of combat experience, but "three centuries of service". The original source does not use "over" in this context. Don't just trust fan-edited wikis like Lexicanum with their sometimes twisted wording without at least checking the original material they supposedly refer to.

And Cassius is almost four centuries old, so there is no contradiction.

Again: All of this depends on where you look. Pick your preferred answer, just be aware of what it says where. Why do people even see a reason to argue here?

I looked in the latest Codex thank you Lynata, you don't need to preach about the likes of Lexicanum and 40k wiki to me . And who's arguing?

Direct quote

Torias Tellion is the most accomplished Scout sergeant the Ultramarines has ever known. He is a veteran of over three centuries of combat and in his time he has trained generations of new recruits.

Pilau Rice wrote:I looked in the latest Codex thank you Lynata

Oh, does that have contradicting fluff? If so, just go ahead and post a quote, please! It's always easier to work with that than how people sometimes remember something, or what some wiki claims.

If GW has changed their information on Telion, I'd certainly have to take this into consideration - just so far I was not aware of any contradiction between the studio's own publications.

[edit] Ninja'd! Thanks - did they change anything about Cassius, too, or is he still supposed to be the oldest? Either way it sounds as if the age difference between those two does not seem to be very big.

Lynata: Because it's more fun to argue that one lens is the correct one rather than to accept that there are multiple lens, of course. It's one of the great problems in society these days.

 Lynata wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:I looked in the latest Codex thank you Lynata

Oh, does that have contradicting fluff? If so, just go ahead and post a quote, please! It's always easier to work with that than how people sometimes remember something, or what some wiki claims.

If GW has changed their information on Telion, I'd certainly have to take this into consideration - just so far I was not aware of any contradiction between the studio's own publications.

[edit] Ninja'd! Thanks - did they change anything about Cassius, too, or is he still supposed to be the oldest? Either way it sounds as if the age difference between those two does not seem to be very big.

Yes, the age is several centuries old, I should have said I quoted from the latest codex.

Ortan Cassius is the Oldest living member of the Ultramarines and even remembers when some of the Chapters most ancient Dreadnoughts fought as flesh and blood ... yadda yadda yadda... Though Cassius is several centuries old, his arm remains strong and his aim true

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Also, no, there is zero evidence in 40k pertaining to Astartes being mortal. The Horus Heresy references them to being immortal all the goddamned time, and need I remind you that the Blood Angel codex in which that fluff is included was written by Matt fething Ward? Especially with the upcoming 'Dex, it's reliability compared to the rest of 40k is dubious at best.

Fluff about long lifespans of Blood Angels was not invented by Ward, it has existed at least since 2nd edition.

Which means it's old. 3rd Edition at best is where modern 40k "started', although it came more into its current form by 4th.

Might be old fluff, but they still go with it. Like alot of the space marine novel stuff.
HH says theyre immortal because they were the new thing on the block and no one knew how long theyd live except maybe the emp.

Id say only champions/heros of the chapter get teaching jobs/ interred into dreadys.
I vaguely remember them being euthanized if they arent worth anything to the chapter.
I think there was a no arms and legs blood angel successor that hinted he was going to be feed to the chapter

The first wording would have put Telion at something like ~320 years of age, whereas this amended one could put him at anything between 330 to 398, assuming Cassius really is 399 (the maximum for being "close to four centuries of age").

At least it's still not an inconsistency - unless they made Cassius older, but it looks like instead they just don't mention details about his age anymore.

Pilau Rice wrote:And who's arguing?

Oh, that wasn't directed at you but Wyzilla and others.

I can sort of relate how people feel their interpretation of the setting is "truer" than others' .. I've been there myself, and I still think GW's original version is better than 90% of the licensed stuff, but in the end, such things are immaterial as the IP will simply continue to publish contradicting "versions" of the setting. The only way to deal with it is by picking the one we like most (including the option to mix and match or insert your own ideas) and accept that not all material will be compatible with our chosen stance. And that whatever interpretation we prefer, it is not more "true" or more "right" than anyone elses. That's just a feature of this franchise.

 Lynata wrote:
The first wording would have put Telion at something like ~320 years of age, whereas this amended one could put him at anything between 330 to 398, assuming Cassius really is 399 (the maximum for being "close to four centuries of age").

At least it's still not an inconsistency - unless they made Cassius older, but it looks like instead they just don't mention details about his age anymore.

I know that it is possible that Cassius can of course be older than Tellion, but the writing doesn't seem to suggest a great difference between the two, hence the smiley face. If Cassius is the oldest and it's a big deal surely he should be truly ancient amongst the Ultramarines, not like by 50 years or something.

I suppose in warrior terms, 50 years is a long time though.

 the shrouded lord wrote:
Space marines are biologically immortal.


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another thing: the warp does NOT work in paterns. just as a hundred years real-time might be a couple minutes in the warp, it is just as likely for the opposite to happen. therefore, chaos space marines DO count.

Space Marines are theorized to be biologically immortal... which is immediately discounted when it is noted that Blood Angels live longer than Marines of other genetic lines.

Ashiraya wrote:Sus-an is just coma, and surely does not prevent cellular degradation?

It slows all the bodily processes, so while it can't prevent cellular degradation, it does mean that the cells divide and die off more slowly on an individual basis.