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Since no Marine has died of old age, how can it be claimed Blood Angels live longer? Dante is the oldest known Marine, that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

Age has effects on them too. Look at Dante and his fluff.

His very joining has passed into legend, the mental effect of the loss of all he joined up with, the passing of so many years.
Even the likes of Logan at about 700 was a mere blood claw when he was a chapter master.

The only ones who even know of his recruitment are dreadnoughts. At a total of roughly 1300, 1100 as leader.

What keeps him going partly is the one golden warrior between darkness or light. Even marines begin to feel age at such long life.

 PhillyT wrote:
Since no Marine has died of old age, how can it be claimed Blood Angels live longer?

And that is exactly why we can conclude that marines can, and have, died of old age. 'No Marine has died of old age' is not actual fluff, it is made up. In Star Trek no Klingon was shown dying of old age, this did not mean that they could not die that way.

Also surely signs of aging after they have become full battle-brothers indicate they're not immortal - I've seen plenty of wrinkly Space Marines with grey hair - the 'life cycle' of a Space Wolf being the most obvious.

Or do the experienced brothers get anti-vanity and dye their hair white?

 PhillyT wrote:
Since no Marine has died of old age, how can it be claimed Blood Angels live longer? Dante is the oldest known Marine, that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

The absence of proof is not proof to the contrary. That is an argumentative fallacy.

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 Wilson wrote:

Amoras wrote:
Only in death does duty end!

Dante is the oldest marine with 1100 years old and going strong, as long as you stay under that it should be okey.

Don't know if were counting Chaos marines too but Kharn and Typhus are both 10,100 years old plus.

I suppose that they are loved by Gods though and thus don't count, right?

They might in fact not be ore than a few hundred years old - Residing in the Warp does weird things to time, which is also why there are so many veterans of Chaos - For many of them, the Horus Heresy is rather young a happening and is less than some hundred years old, while others might be 30000 years old and have forgotten why they fight in the first place...

Just... The Warp.

Besides Typhus shouldn't be listed, It should be Kharn and Ahriman since both were born on Terra prior to their Legion's reunification with their Primarchs.

Thats the good thing about home brew. You dont HAVE to follow the storyline.
You can have a librarian older than the oldest "known" marine who isnt known for it just because he doesnt brag about it. Heck, you can have a librarian who served under the thousand sons before the HH if you want. It is YOUR chapter, do as you like fluffwise so long as you stay within the rules.
Heck, you can even have onewho was a "precurser before the marines who managed to stay alive and well and works with your chapter.
We see the likes of hello kitty marines, marine armies based off football teams and the smurfs. Your idea is far closer to fluff than those.
i say go for it and come up with whatever storyline you like.

 Crimson wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
Since no Marine has died of old age, how can it be claimed Blood Angels live longer?

And that is exactly why we can conclude that marines can, and have, died of old age. 'No Marine has died of old age' is not actual fluff, it is made up. In Star Trek no Klingon was shown dying of old age, this did not mean that they could not die that way.

Does it not state they haven't died of old age? I thought it did. I had assumed they all simply die in combat and the actual age has never been tested.

 PhillyT wrote:

Does it not state they haven't died of old age? I thought it did.

Nope.

 PhillyT wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
Since no Marine has died of old age, how can it be claimed Blood Angels live longer?

And that is exactly why we can conclude that marines can, and have, died of old age. 'No Marine has died of old age' is not actual fluff, it is made up. In Star Trek no Klingon was shown dying of old age, this did not mean that they could not die that way.

Does it not state they haven't died of old age? I thought it did. I had assumed they all simply die in combat and the actual age has never been tested.

You're correct it just heavily implies it by comparing the length of someone's life to another. And it certainly isn't based on survivability given the BA's condition. Maybe that is what the Black Rage is? The Astartes' version of dementia?

Given their small numbers and the fact they're genetically engineered to head butt the universe I doubt Astartes pensions are a major issue but over 10,000 years? Say the average life expectancy of a Marine is 200 and we stick with the ball park figure of 1 million marines operating at any one time - thats 500 million men who have put on a suit of power armour over the years.

I imagine its rare but its almost certainly happened that Old Brother Izander keeled over during a feast in the fortress-monastery's great hall.

Retirement?

Wilson: Depends on where you are and what your social class is. The upper bound for people who can afford it is in the neighborhood of four hundred years, for factory-floor labourers you might be looking at fifty years or so assuming they don't die in industrial accidents.

BrianDavion wrote:

 daddyorchips wrote:
in Ian Watson's space marines there are a references to a few elderly space marines, too injured to rebuild, who act as teachers, tutors, instructors etc etc.

IIRC that book is largely retconned now isn't it?

I've been re reading this after many years over the last few days and noted the old marines. They used positions like chaplains for aged and war torn marines. A cool use but totally out if sink with todays fluff. I would think any marine that makes old age now and isn't so badly mangled that he can't function would be considered a bit of an embarrassment as he can hardly have been doing much work over the years. Questions would need to be asked!! Why are you not dead old man?!

BrianDavion wrote:

 daddyorchips wrote:
in Ian Watson's space marines there are a references to a few elderly space marines, too injured to rebuild, who act as teachers, tutors, instructors etc etc.

IIRC that book is largely retconned now isn't it?

it is in a curious limbo. many bits have been retconned, many others have become canon.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
so, thinking about this, we don;t know of any marines dying of old age. we do know that maybe some get too old and damaged to fight. but that might be old lore. we know that there are plenty of examples of marines living hundreds of years and at least one case 1000s. we know that sus-an can make them practically immortal.

until we hear a reliable story of a marine retiring, maybe we should assume that most don't get to retire. they serve, they die somewhere. maybe after 10 years, maybe after a few hundred. but a few hundred is notable. most marines don't last that long. presumably but not definitely because they die first.

if any gw person is reading this, we either need more clarity or we need to completely blow all this apart for a laugh.

Im just picturing a few old grey beardy marines, sitting round drinking home brew, huffing on pipes, did you hear that scout the other day, conquer the universe he was gonna. Pfft back in my day.

Captain Mainwaring the tyranids is invading. Who do they think theyre kidding, Pass me my bolt gun... stupid boy,

A regular marine who gets old gets killed on the battle field most times, a fraction to slow,a fraction to unlucky. Thats retirement.

In space marine as i said a page ago. A BA successor had his arms/legs chopped off with a chain sword, put in a pot and metal poured around him. Wounds to old for bionics, not enough of a champion to be dreadyed. He suspected he was going to be euthinized, if he didnt have some further use to the chapter

the ancient wrote:
Im just picturing a few old grey beardy marines, sitting round drinking home brew, huffing on pipes, did you hear that scout the other day, conquer the universe he was gonna. Pfft back in my day.

Captain Mainwaring the tyranids is invading. Who do they think theyre kidding, Pass me my bolt gun... stupid boy,

A regular marine who gets old gets killed on the battle field most times, a fraction to slow,a fraction to unlucky. Thats retirement.

In space marine as i said a page ago. A BA successor had his arms/legs chopped off with a chain sword, put in a pot and metal poured around him. Wounds to old for bionics, not enough of a champion to be dreadyed. He suspected he was going to be euthinized, if he didnt have some further use to the chapter

They call them "Long Fangs" and "Grey Hunters" in the Space Wolves, and that is exactly what they are. Old, grey-haired and long-fanged Space Wolves, who make fun of the young pups and talk about battles that are centuries, if not millennia, past.

the ancient wrote:
Im just picturing a few old grey beardy marines, sitting round drinking home brew, huffing on pipes, did you hear that scout the other day, conquer the universe he was gonna. Pfft back in my day.

Captain Mainwaring the tyranids is invading. Who do they think theyre kidding, Pass me my bolt gun... stupid boy,

A regular marine who gets old gets killed on the battle field most times, a fraction to slow,a fraction to unlucky. Thats retirement.

In space marine as i said a page ago. A BA successor had his arms/legs chopped off with a chain sword, put in a pot and metal poured around him. Wounds to old for bionics, not enough of a champion to be dreadyed. He suspected he was going to be euthinized, if he didnt have some further use to the chapter

It doesn't sound beyond Dreadnoughts or even bionics, Considering that an Excoriators scout(A scout! not even a full marine) Fought without his entire lower body and actually did more than the rest of the Scouts combined
should show how much of a non issue that is.

Khonsu wrote:

the ancient wrote:
Im just picturing a few old grey beardy marines, sitting round drinking home brew, huffing on pipes, did you hear that scout the other day, conquer the universe he was gonna. Pfft back in my day.

Captain Mainwaring the tyranids is invading. Who do they think theyre kidding, Pass me my bolt gun... stupid boy,

A regular marine who gets old gets killed on the battle field most times, a fraction to slow,a fraction to unlucky. Thats retirement.

In space marine as i said a page ago. A BA successor had his arms/legs chopped off with a chain sword, put in a pot and metal poured around him. Wounds to old for bionics, not enough of a champion to be dreadyed. He suspected he was going to be euthinized, if he didnt have some further use to the chapter

It doesn't sound beyond Dreadnoughts or even bionics, Considering that an Excoriators scout(A scout! not even a full marine) Fought without his entire lower body and actually did more than the rest of the Scouts combined
should show how much of a non issue that is.

Bisection is both a common injury for Astartes to survive and is quite livable, even at the pelvis. Just bionics or shoved into a dreadnought, or start working in a vehicle.

More exceptional was how the majority of the scout's organs were vaporized presumably by having a lightning claw shoved into his chest.

Again in Ian watsons book we have reference to 'honorable euthanasia.' probably not terribly PC anymore with all the debate around euthanasia and it's honor or lack of. But I think it maybe fits in quite well with the whole grim dark.

Knockagh wrote:
Again in Ian watsons book we have reference to 'honorable euthanasia.' probably not terribly PC anymore with all the debate around euthanasia and it's honor or lack of. But I think it maybe fits in quite well with the whole grim dark.

Wait, Space Marine? That book is so old it was made a Heretic Tome by the Black Library.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Knockagh wrote:
Again in Ian watsons book we have reference to 'honorable euthanasia.' probably not terribly PC anymore with all the debate around euthanasia and it's honor or lack of. But I think it maybe fits in quite well with the whole grim dark.

Wait, Space Marine? That book is so old it was made a Heretic Tome by the Black Library.

I know I'm there myself sadly. I wonder what happens to old gamers are they allowed to retire??? Or will GW miniatures cost so much that I will need to farm until I drop in the field some day?? Actually come to think about it that's what happens most people in my profession! Can't think of a better way to go.

Without reading the entire thread, my view on this is when a marine is alive and well, but too many replacement parts and such to put them on full combat duty. They then get put on "retirement" as ship commanders, advisors, recruitment NCOs, garrison castellans, and other normally non-direct combat jobs that their reduced physical ability will allow without impacting active military operations, thus allowing able marines to carry the bulk of the missions and not slow them down.

As for getting old, I think marines are effectively immortal in relation to normal humans and will not "retire" to a pasture somewhere to live out their days. Can you imagine the type of nurses needed in the Space Marine nursing home?
Retired marine- "I don't want broccoli!"
Nurse- "You will eat your broccoli or I will shove it down your throat."
Retired Marine- "Try me."

Hell they go down to the rec room and talk war stories and they would be there for years not repeating the same one twice.

 the shrouded lord wrote:
Space marines are biologically immortal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
another thing: the warp does NOT work in paterns. just as a hundred years real-time might be a couple minutes in the warp, it is just as likely for the opposite to happen. therefore, chaos space marines DO count.

And not all Chaos marines are warp dwellers. The blood Gorgons, with a 6000 yr old chapter master live in a spacehulk in real space. Sort of a Chaos version of the Phalanx.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Col. Dash wrote:
Without reading the entire thread, my view on this is when a marine is alive and well, but too many replacement parts and such to put them on full combat duty. They then get put on "retirement" as ship commanders, advisors, recruitment NCOs, garrison castellans, and other normally non-direct combat jobs that their reduced physical ability will allow without impacting active military operations, thus allowing able marines to carry the bulk of the missions and not slow them down.

As for getting old, I think marines are effectively immortal in relation to normal humans and will not "retire" to a pasture somewhere to live out their days. Can you imagine the type of nurses needed in the Space Marine nursing home?
Retired marine- "I don't want broccoli!"
Nurse- "You will eat your broccoli or I will shove it down your throat."
Retired Marine- "Try me."

Hell they go down to the rec room and talk war stories and they would be there for years not repeating the same one twice.

Soritas Hosptilers are the only ones qualified.

Depends.

According to Dark heresy, people older than 25 are considered "great old ones" in almost every culture!

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
Depends.

According to Dark heresy, people older than 25 are considered "great old ones" in almost every culture!

In the fun happiness of the far future, there's only dark humour

There is a Black Templar High Marshal called Ludoldus that is over 2,000 years old, and this is a son of Dorn not of Sanguinius, so should not have an extended lifespan. He is recorded leading the Jerulas Crusade in 645.M39 as High Marshal and Vinculus Crusade in 883.M41. It could be two High Marshals sharing the same name, but apparently portraits show great similarities of the High Marshal/s and considering the Black Templars are crusading the chances of recruiting a person who looks almost identical, with the same name and probably from another planet are very slim, but who knows . So in my opinion Space Marines don't retire but most die before they reach an age close to a 500.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
Depends.

According to Dark heresy, people older than 25 are considered "great old ones" in almost every culture!

Welcome to the impirial guard!

When you die! Or, if you're really old, they'll just list you as KIA (Killed in action) and keep you secret for the rest of your immortality.

 somestrangeguardsman wrote:
There is a Black Templar High Marshal called Ludoldus that is over 2,000 years old, and this is a son of Dorn not of Sanguinius, so should not have an extended lifespan. He is recorded leading the Jerulas Crusade in 645.M39 as High Marshal and Vinculus Crusade in 883.M41. It could be two High Marshals sharing the same name, but apparently portraits show great similarities of the High Marshal/s and considering the Black Templars are crusading the chances of recruiting a person who looks almost identical, with the same name and probably from another planet are very slim, but who knows . So in my opinion Space Marines don't retire but most die before they reach an age close to a 500.

This is quite interesting as it's pretty solid counter-evidence to the supposed long-livedness of the BA.

 somestrangeguardsman wrote:
There is a Black Templar High Marshal called Ludoldus that is over 2,000 years old.

On the other hand the BT are spacefaring crusaders. Ships can spend years in the Warp while only weeks pass aboard. This High Marshal may well be the same person in both accounts, with many centuries of time spent in the Warp while transiting from one warzone to the next. Not that it would be unheard of for a knight to take his teacher's name in order to carry on his work, ofc.

Or it could be the Black Templars are just hopeless at keeping records... The Jerulas Crusade Ludoldus is said to be a veteran of the bloody Vinculus Crusade - that hasn't happened yet!

barnowl wrote:

 the shrouded lord wrote:
Space marines are biologically immortal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
another thing: the warp does NOT work in paterns. just as a hundred years real-time might be a couple minutes in the warp, it is just as likely for the opposite to happen. therefore, chaos space marines DO count.

And not all Chaos marines are warp dwellers. The blood Gorgons, with a 6000 yr old chapter master live in a spacehulk in real space. Sort of a Chaos version of the Phalanx.

He can't be that old, the Chapter isn't even that old. The Blood Gorgons were one of the Cursed Founding Chapters, which took place in M36.