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So... available everywhere except Australia, apparently...

 insaniak wrote:
So... available everywhere except Australia, apparently...

You should be familiar with the concept of GW hating Australia by now

Maybe they're already sold out in Australia.

 adamsouza wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
So... available everywhere except Australia, apparently...

You should be familiar with the concept of GW hating Australia by now

Too expensive to translate into Criminal I suspect.

The savings is so small :X

Personally, I would have rather seen small format, paperback for 30% - 35% off on the MSRP.

So close...

I'm not trying to be obtuse, but I don't understand what sort of niche these smaller format books (which are priced at about 80% of the original books) is supposed to fill.

It is aimed at people who want a smaller, more portable format for less cash.

It just doesn't really hit the bullseye.

EDIT
If they filter down to the discounters, they'll be about the right price, for me at least, but they use all the language to suggest these will be web only.

They fulfill the "we saved some of the books from the sets to sell during the holiday season for some extra revenue" niche. My guess is they aren't permanent.

I'd say the niche of someone carrying alot of heavy stuff to a games store already and likely wanting something smaller/lighter than their current codex to take with them? The same niche as the mini rulebooks.

 Melcavuk wrote:
I'd say the niche of someone carrying alot of heavy stuff to a games store already and likely wanting something smaller/lighter than their current codex to take with them? The same niche as the mini rulebooks.

They would fill that niche better if they were softcover.

Yeah, smaller softcover for $25-30 would be a done deal. Not very exciting as-is.

 insaniak wrote:

 Melcavuk wrote:
I'd say the niche of someone carrying alot of heavy stuff to a games store already and likely wanting something smaller/lighter than their current codex to take with them? The same niche as the mini rulebooks.

They would fill that niche better if they were softcover.

And about half the price.

I really doubt that you'd be saving on weight from the codex by that much to warrant buying it again at such an oddly similar price.

Once again GW has a good idea and completely misses the mark. The whole point of smaller format books would be a reduced cost, not a reduced footprint. But ~$9 is basically not much savings at all when it boils down to it.

So does that mean GW are still considering releasing cheaper codices in a softcover format, or was the rumor wrong and this is our "cheaper" option now?

Because combined with the softcover reprints of the End Times stuff that aren't significantly cheaper than the hardcovers were, I'm starting to think this is the best we're going to get. And that's kinda sad.

WayneTheGame wrote:
Once again GW has a good idea and completely misses the mark. The whole point of smaller format books would be a reduced cost, not a reduced footprint. But ~$9 is basically not much savings at all when it boils down to it.

That's almost %20 lower...What are you expecting? Half price?

Well, that's about what everyone else charges for comparable product (those that don't give their rules away for nothing,) so...yes?

How about $33, which is what they were selling the old paperback codices for before they made the switch to insanely-priced hardcovers?

$33 wouldn't have been a bad price for a codex, but the problem was back in the day that they weren't very high quality books. When they were $20-25 it was different, but at $30+ people started to expect more than a black-and-white paperback that sometimes had...issues. Never happened to me personally but I heard other people had pages falling out of theirs regularly.

GW responded to that by releasing hardcover books in full color...yay! Except they also bumped the price up an extra $17 and made them even more ludicrously expensive than they already were. So we finally started getting the quality we should have been getting, but not at the price we should have been paying. GW bought into its own hype a little too much when they set that $50 price point in the first place, and apparently isn't ready to fix that anytime soon. Until then GW's just going to keep losing sales I guess, as most people get into other games because they can't afford the cost of GW, and the people still playing buy only what they need to keep playing, instead of buying every codex that comes out and maybe even starting multiple armies up.

So yeah, $33 for a hardcover, full-color rulebook in a smaller format that's easier to carry around to games? Would have been damn near perfect, in my opinion, the only way to do any better than that is just offering the rules for free (which I personally am not all that fond of since I actually like having physical copies of the books). So because it would be too perfect, of course, it'll be the last thing GW ever does.

$33 is unrealistic. Even without going hard-cover, the only ones I would rate at $33 are GK and Imperial Knights. The rest would have been between $35-40 regardless at this point.

 troa wrote:
$33 is unrealistic. Even without going hard-cover, the only ones I would rate at $33 are GK and Imperial Knights. The rest would have been between $35-40 regardless at this point.

Codices used to be $30.

Don't know how or why that's unrealistic.

I mean, its not like other companies give away their army rules for free or anything.

It's unrealistic when you consider that their last codecies were $33 a pop, and they tend to raise prices every release.

 Blacksails wrote:

 troa wrote:
$33 is unrealistic. Even without going hard-cover, the only ones I would rate at $33 are GK and Imperial Knights. The rest would have been between $35-40 regardless at this point.

Codices used to be $30.

Don't know how or why that's unrealistic.

I mean, its not like other companies give away their army rules for free or anything.

$33 is a perfectly reasonable price for a book like that. The Malifaux small format rulebook was $15, for example. Most full color, full size, main rulebooks in the industry cost between $30 and $40.

Kings of War - $40
Warmachine Prime MKII - $30
Flames of War, 3rd ed - $40
7TV - $32
Freebooter's Fate - $30
Dust Warfare - $40
Bolt Action - $40
Helldorado - $50
Infinity 3rd ed - $75

And those are core rulebooks. GW's core rulebooks are what, above $80 now? The only real outlier in there is the Infinity 3rd ed. rulebook, and you can probably thank GW's pricing model for that sticker price. In most cases though, game books in the miniature wargaming industry go for about $30-$40. $33 for a small format codex would be completely reasonable, if not a little on the high end considering the format and the fact that it is a supplement as opposed to a main rulebook.

It's only unrealistic if you expect GW to lower the price to something reasonable. I genuinely never did, and didn't put much stock in the rumor that GW was considering cheaper softcover rulebooks to try and entice people to buy into the game. Doesn't fit in with the GW we all know well that just assumes you'll buy the product, every product, no matter what it costs and even without any prior notice.

$33 for a codex is a pretty realistic price otherwise, though, and more along the lines of what these books are actually worth when compared to other gaming rulebooks with similar page counts and content. GW charges more because they're GW, and have deluded themselves into thinking they're the Apple of the wargaming world, despite rapidly shrinking and losing market share over the past few years to competitors and helping all these smaller games and companies get bigger and bigger.

 troa wrote:
It's unrealistic when you consider that their last codecies were $33 a pop, and they tend to raise prices every release.

With an attitude like that, you are certainly GW management material.
Let's examine this from a business perspective.
1. GW is hemorrhaging customers and liquid capital.
2. The closest competitors claim to be growing market share exponentially and offers free starter rules, unit rules in the miniature boxes and paperback rules/army books with a hardcover options and significantly cheaper digital options.

This tells anyone with an iota of business savy that there is a demand for a variety of rules products in a range of prices and formats.

Business as usual continues to cost market share so the answer at GW is to produce a book that relatively few have asked for with no real cost savings for the consumer. Keep in mind that the rules are already $20+ more expensive per book than the closest competitors so you would want to come fairly close to the price point that seems to be drawing the most customers.

And as pointed out above, even $33 is still considered to be a bit on the high side for what you're getting. Doesn't even compare to Privateer Press faction books, which have rules, fluff, and a painting guide (that GW now sells for an extra $33 on top of your $50 codex), and are completely optional purchases to begin with.

 Sidstyler wrote:
So does that mean GW are still considering releasing cheaper codices in a softcover format, or was the rumor wrong and this is our "cheaper" option now?

Because combined with the softcover reprints of the End Times stuff that aren't significantly cheaper than the hardcovers were, I'm starting to think this is the best we're going to get. And that's kinda sad.

I just looked that up. Holyfuck it's $90CAD for the two soft back nagash books.

>____O

 agnosto wrote:

 troa wrote:
It's unrealistic when you consider that their last codecies were $33 a pop, and they tend to raise prices every release.

With an attitude like that, you are certainly GW management material.
Let's examine this from a business perspective.
1. GW is hemorrhaging customers and liquid capital.
2. The closest competitors claim to be growing market share exponentially and offers free starter rules, unit rules in the miniature boxes and paperback rules/army books with a hardcover options and significantly cheaper digital options.

This tells anyone with an iota of business savy that there is a demand for a variety of rules products in a range of prices and formats.

Business as usual continues to cost market share so the answer at GW is to produce a book that relatively few have asked for with no real cost savings for the consumer. Keep in mind that the rules are already $20+ more expensive per book than the closest competitors so you would want to come fairly close to the price point that seems to be drawing the most customers.

And so you would say they hit the mark when they have reduced price to match other companies, yes? With that attitude (you're not the only one to display it) people will not stop complaining until GW actually starts reducing prices on new releases compared to the last ones. Without some serious shake ups that will not happen. Hence, it is unrealistic when you look at the issue of price through the lens of those who set the price. Calling it realistic to expect them to do that when history has proven they won't is like expecting them to call me personally and ask what price I would have them set. We both know those things will not happen. Thus, it shifts from "will it raise" to "how much will it raise?" I'm not arguing it's a good practice, simply that you may as well stop arguing anything GW if all you (meaning whoever is so inclined to argue in this fashion) is going to do is say "well, that is unreasonable" every time they make any decision. Once a group is at that point they are past discussion, and merely dragging others down through their jaded views.

 Lockark wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:
So does that mean GW are still considering releasing cheaper codices in a softcover format, or was the rumor wrong and this is our "cheaper" option now?

Because combined with the softcover reprints of the End Times stuff that aren't significantly cheaper than the hardcovers were, I'm starting to think this is the best we're going to get. And that's kinda sad.

I just looked that up. Holyfuck it's $90CAD for the two soft back nagash books.

>____O

And $124 AU.

I love it! If I could have one Christmas wish it would be to be a fly on the wall in a Games Workshop marketing meeting. 'Hey guys, you know what the gamer's really want? No! Not a plastic Sisters of Battle kit, you oaf! How about we shrink the codex down a bit and sell it for $9 less than the regular priced ones!' 'Let's get some tea and biscuits!' Scene.

 troa wrote:

And so you would say they hit the mark when they have reduced price to match other companies, yes? With that attitude (you're not the only one to display it) people will not stop complaining until GW actually starts reducing prices on new releases compared to the last ones. Without some serious shake ups that will not happen. Hence, it is unrealistic when you look at the issue of price through the lens of those who set the price. Calling it realistic to expect them to do that when history has proven they won't is like expecting them to call me personally and ask what price I would have them set. We both know those things will not happen. Thus, it shifts from "will it raise" to "how much will it raise?" I'm not arguing it's a good practice, simply that you may as well stop arguing anything GW if all you (meaning whoever is so inclined to argue in this fashion) is going to do is say "well, that is unreasonable" every time they make any decision. Once a group is at that point they are past discussion, and merely dragging others down through their jaded views.

From a business perspective, you charge what the market will bear. For rule bookso the majority of manufacturers charge in the $30-$40 range. GW charges significantly more and so is understandablyour losing market share. A normal organization would accept the past two, negative financial reports and glean from that some measure of the market'share expectations. You are correct in your statement that GW management will not, if outgoing CEO Kirby's statements are anything to go by which is sad in the long term for anyone who enjoys GW's products.

Now, reasonableness. Is it reasonable for consumers to expect some parity in pricing between GW and it's competitors? In real world business terms, yes. Let's use Apple as an example since Kirby likes to compare himself to Steve Jobs and GW to Apple. Apple is seen as a premium brand yet subsidized phone prices in the US market between the iPhone and it's next largest competition, the Samsung Galaxy are the same. Consumers expect to pay about $200 for a top-end, subsidized smart phone and Apple meets that expectation.

The market sets prices but consumers have some price elasticity for brands they value. When a company's prices break that threshold for a large portion of its clientele, the result is reduced sales volume. The good news is that a company that is watching the market has ample warning to turn things around before the bottom line takes a hit because some consumer's spending habits are more "elastic" than others. Unfortunately, GW was asleep at the wheel and will have to take stronger course correction measures to draw disaffected customers back. Compound this with a lack of entry mechanism since GW got rid of anything resembling a skirmish-level game and you see a reduced amount of new customers being drawn in. Additionally, since GW does no real advertising or marketing and more veterans and disaffected FLGSs turn potential new players to other games, the picture becomes a bit more dire.