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Talking from an efficiency standpoint, do you spend the 1pt togive your sergeants'/equivs' a boltgun? Wrong info: :Wrong info over. You do have to trade the laspistol for it, but there are hardly any games where the laspistol will do more damage than the boltgun. It seems to me the boost to 24" range as well as rapid fire, str4, ap5 bonus is well worth the 1pt. Unless I am missing something big, giving an order doesn't prevent the model nor the unit from shooting, so it isn't like the shots aren't going to be used.

It seems to me that boltguns are kinda an auto-include, unless you plan on that unit never shooting for some reason.

Am I wrong?

Am I missing any other wargear that these models should have?

Thanks in advance!

It's hard to argue one point. But honestly, I don't want to deal with the complication. My sergeants get melta bombs, and sometimes power axes. The squad combines with another squad and is ordered to fire either tons of lasgun shots, or massed heavy weapons. The massed s3 hits usually kill what ever, or the meltabombs do depending on what they are fighting.in melee. They are held together by a priest and a commisar, which usually has a power weapon of some sort.

1pt boltguns are a great way to get a 10th 24" shot from a 10 man team (providing you're not doing heavy weapons or special ones on the rest of the troopers). Doesn't benefit from the orders, sure, and adds a bit of confusion when rolling to hit/wound (but that's easily solved tossing in a different colored die for the sergeant).

I dunno, I never do it because it always seemed silly for a sergeant of random platoon number 2931083457 to have a bolt rifle when his subordinates had las weapons. Then again, i'm in love with chainswords.

 Frankenberry wrote:
I dunno, I never do it because it always seemed silly for a sergeant of random platoon number 2931083457 to have a bolt rifle when his subordinates had las weapons. Then again, i'm in love with chainswords.

I think it goes something like this:
Guardsman: (runs up to sergeant) Hey Sarge, Hey Sarge! Look what I found!
Sergeant: (turns to guardsman who is holding a boltgun) And where did you get that?
Guardsman: (out of breath) Well this space marine over there saw me take on all those Tyranids by myself, he turned to me and nodded and handed it to me! It was so cool I think
Sergeant: (interrupting guardsman) You mean he gave it to me after watching me take on all those Tyranids.
Guardsman: (mouth open in shock) But, but....
Sergeant: (points laspistol to guardsman's head) Heresy! *pew*

 Ryan_A wrote:
Talking from an efficiency standpoint, do you spend the 1pt togive your sergeants'/equivs' a boltgun? I believe the wording lets you keep his other weapons since it says it "may take..." not "replace". It seems to me the boost to 24" range as well as rapid fire, str4, ap5 bonus is well worth the 1pt. Unless I am missing something big, giving an order doesn't prevent the model nor the unit from shooting, so it isn't like the shots aren't going to be used.

On the wargear page, it says replace - so you do need to sacrifice the laspistol to get a boltgun.

 Ryan_A wrote:

It seems to me that boltguns are kinda an auto-include, unless you plan on that unit never shooting for some reason.

Am I wrong?

They're probably worth it, but personally I don't really want the hassle. I dislike faffing around with multiple 1pt uprades, trying to make my list exact. And, I think it's easier to remember that everyone has a las weapon.

So, in terms of power, it's probably worth it. In terms of list-building and remembering, it's likely to be a bit of a pain.

 Ryan_A wrote:

Am I missing any other wargear that these models should have?

Not really. About 90% of our wargear costs twice as much as it should, to the point where I'd hesitate to buy extras for Company Commanders, let alone PCS Sergeants.

For the most part, the same applies to Infantry Squad Sergeants. However, if they're going to form a large combined squad, you could consider melta bombs or power axes. The former might be useful if you face a lot of vehicles, though as IG you should really be taking them down outside of combat (but, having 1 at least means you can't be locked in an unwinnable combat). Power Axes might be worth considering if you include a priest and your squad frequently ends up in combat (voluntarily or otherwise). But, bear in mind that you're increasing the cost of the sergeant by 300%. So, it's not something I'd invest in lightly.

Giving anything to an IG sergeant (that isnt a tempestor) is a waste of points.

Especially melee stuff. Because S3 sucks, powerfists are horrendously overpriced (they already are barely worth it for space marines) and almost always you'll strike last, so you are dead before you know it.

Only melta bombs for dedicated meltavets on AT duty who then have the small chance of assaulting a tank with krak nades and, as you mentioned, boltguns are worth it, but the latter means you have to get about convertin stuff, and that 1 extra point might prevent your armylist getting 5 points left over for...say...a pintle mounted heavy stubber

 vipoid wrote:

 Ryan_A wrote:
Talking from an efficiency standpoint, do you spend the 1pt togive your sergeants'/equivs' a boltgun? I believe the wording lets you keep his other weapons since it says it "may take..." not "replace". It seems to me the boost to 24" range as well as rapid fire, str4, ap5 bonus is well worth the 1pt. Unless I am missing something big, giving an order doesn't prevent the model nor the unit from shooting, so it isn't like the shots aren't going to be used.

On the wargear page, it says replace - so you do need to sacrifice the laspistol to get a boltgun.

 Ryan_A wrote:

It seems to me that boltguns are kinda an auto-include, unless you plan on that unit never shooting for some reason.

Am I wrong?

They're probably worth it, but personally I don't really want the hassle. I dislike faffing around with multiple 1pt uprades, trying to make my list exact. And, I think it's easier to remember that everyone has a las weapon.

So, in terms of power, it's probably worth it. In terms of list-building and remembering, it's likely to be a bit of a pain.

 Ryan_A wrote:

Am I missing any other wargear that these models should have?

Not really. About 90% of our wargear costs twice as much as it should, to the point where I'd hesitate to buy extras for Company Commanders, let alone PCS Sergeants.

For the most part, the same applies to Infantry Squad Sergeants. However, if they're going to form a large combined squad, you could consider melta bombs or power axes. The former might be useful if you face a lot of vehicles, though as IG you should really be taking them down outside of combat (but, having 1 at least means you can't be locked in an unwinnable combat). Power Axes might be worth considering if you include a priest and your squad frequently ends up in combat (voluntarily or otherwise). But, bear in mind that you're increasing the cost of the sergeant by 300%. So, it's not something I'd invest in lightly.

Thanks for pointing out the "replaces laspistol". I amended my original post to reflect the accurate info.

As for the "hassle", if you think about it, its kind-of a trade off with how easy it makes playing the game. With the laspistol, you have to remember it is only 12"; as for the boltgun, you have to remember its str4 ap5 rap fire.

I've noticed that. The first army I played was space marines, and I can't believe that the wargear costs are equal, it doesn't make any sense.

As for melta bombs and power axes, I have a huge amount of anti-AV that is between 48"-72" max distance as well as 3 basilisks and a manticore. On the note of the power axe, my list doesn't have a priest in it at this point in time, and I rarely if ever get into combat and if I do, it is usually to make it so the enemy can't shoot the unit since it is in CC with a friendly unit of theirs, so I want the combat to last as long as possible (that combined with how little the power axe does for IG, I'll pass).

Thanks for the helpful post!

 Ryan_A wrote:
Am I wrong?

Am I missing any other wargear that these models should have?

For melee blob, where you want to give your Sergeant a power axe, that laspistol is +1 AP2 hits. Then you don't want a boltgun.

Zsolt wrote:

 Ryan_A wrote:
Am I wrong?

Am I missing any other wargear that these models should have?

For melee blob, where you want to give your Sergeant a power axe, that laspistol is +1 AP2 hits. Then you don't want a boltgun.

Great point, didn't consider that. Thank you.

Edit: but why not replace the laspistol with a bolt pistol for 1pt?

 Ryan_A wrote:

I've noticed that. The first army I played was space marines, and I can't believe that the wargear costs are equal, it doesn't make any sense.

I can only assume that a lot of SM players were upset that guard got 10pt power weapons and 15pt power fists in 5th.

Because, you know, a 5pt WS3 S3 I3 guardsman should obviously pay just as much for a melee weapon as a 15pt WS4 S4 I4 space marine.

 Ryan_A wrote:

As for melta bombs and power axes, I have a huge amount of anti-AV that is between 48"-72" max distance as well as 3 basilisks and a manticore. On the note of the power axe, my list doesn't have a priest in it at this point in time, and I rarely if ever get into combat and if I do, it is usually to make it so the enemy can't shoot the unit since it is in CC with a friendly unit of theirs, so I want the combat to last as long as possible (that combined with how little the power axe does for IG, I'll pass).

Fair enough. My guard blob seems to end up in combat every single match.

Anyway, I just thought I'd mention those items since they do add a bit of combat-versatility to infantry squads, but it sounds like your shooting is good enough to make such things pretty redundant.

 Ryan_A wrote:

Edit: but why not replace the laspistol with a bolt pistol for 1pt?

A bolt pistol is pretty lacking, compared to a bolter. For a start, one of the main advantages of the bolter is the extra range - which the bolt pistol lacks entirely. Then, a single shot at 12" doesn't seem particularly useful. If you use 'First Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire!', a Las pistol will equal or outperform a bolt pistol against most enemies. Basically, it just lacks the range and punch of a bolter.

 vipoid wrote:

A bolt pistol is pretty lacking, compared to a bolter. For a start, one of the main advantages of the bolter is the extra range - which the bolt pistol lacks entirely. Then, a single shot at 12" doesn't seem particularly useful. If you use 'First Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire!', a Las pistol will equal or outperform a bolt pistol against most enemies. Basically, it just lacks the range and punch of a bolter.

I totally forgot about voice of command! I havn't played in too long Thanks for reminding me!


EDIT!!!!: FRFSRF only applies to lasguns, not lasweapons, so the laspistol doesn't help! "all models firing with lasguns or hot-shot lasguns fire one additional shot."

 vipoid wrote:
If you use 'First Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire!', a Las pistol will equal or outperform a bolt pistol against most enemies. Basically, it just lacks the range and punch of a bolter.

Minor quibble: that order doesn't work on pistol - only lasguns and hot-shot lasguns.

Mallich wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
If you use 'First Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire!', a Las pistol will equal or outperform a bolt pistol against most enemies. Basically, it just lacks the range and punch of a bolter.

Minor quibble: that order doesn't work on pistol - only lasguns and hot-shot lasguns.

Lol, you beat me to posting that by 30 seconds. My edit was 11:21:09 and your post was 11:20:39 lol.

Mallich wrote:
Minor quibble: that order doesn't work on pistol - only lasguns and hot-shot lasguns.

Huh, so it doesn't. Oops.

I guess getting those extra las pistol shots was considered too powerful...?

 Ryan_A wrote:
Lol, you beat me to posting that by 30 seconds. My edit was 11:21:09 and your post was 11:20:39 lol.

Makes sense - I rolled up the "Thread Ninja" USR when I was born. It comes in handy.
As for what I would give IG/AM sergeants:
Life insurance. Always buy IG/AM sergeants this.
Boltgun, laspistol, or bolt pistol. From an entirely mathhammer based perspective, the bolt pistol probably isn't worth it... but they do look nice and they're easier for me to get hold of compared to laspistols. On bolt pistols:
Everything else costs too much for my taste and doesn't fit my vision of the guard. For the cost of a powerfist you could add a priest to the unit, and the priest's boosts can often help you deal damage in combat anyway.

To the OP. It depends on your play style, whether to equip Sgts and Sqds with extra stuff. I'm not sure how strict WYSIWYG your player base is. It may be worth your while to play some games and proxy before commiting.

I tend to play aggressively with my Guardsmen. I try to advance whenever possible. So if I have an Infantry Platoon, I will likely blob the two squads and put them ahead of my command squad, and march forward for board control. The PCS just hangs back to give out whatever order is most useful and add a few shots to the mix.

Depending on the table set-up you could have 130pts worth of models able to affect 1/3 to 1/2 of a 4'x6' table with small arms fire. As well as giving cover to other units, able to intercept and tarpit threats.... you get the idea.

Of course lasguns suck, but most opponents do stop and consider 18 lasguns with FRFSRF. Depending on the range you could have between 36-54 shots.

So for me... cheap cheap cheap!

I would say it could be well worth it. However keep in mind that the AM codex is really well structured around 5 pts increments so those 1 point upgrades often times mean you end up with 4 pts you need to account for. I also like to play both ranged AM and melee blobbs (there are actually about 3-4 really good ways to pull off melee blobbs). Thus my models need to be reasonably equipped for both.

As for other worthwhile wargear. The melta bombs are awesome now. The prevalence of waveserpents, wraithknights, and imperial knights makes melta bombs very effective. Combine this with maelstorm style score as you go missions and you will often get into melee with various vehicles.

Power axes + laspistols are well worth it on a melee blob. As for bolt pistols in a melee blob. Keep in mind that you don't actually want to kill or shoot something you are going to charge with a melee blob. Anything that makes the charge harder (aka killing the closest model) is a bad thing. You want to make the charges at all cost with a melee blob as it 1) protects from shooting and 2) gives you 2d6+consolidation extra movement (and if running a Isodon or Cypher blob you get the hit and run if you want).

Power fists are not great. 25 pts is horribly expensive and taking a power axe and melta bombs usually vastly out performs.

power axes suck because characters can be challenged.

 Sir Arun wrote:
power axes suck because characters can be challenged.

So deny the challenge with 1 of the 6+ characters in the unit and let them eat the return attacks. You can only make 1 challenge per combat.

 ansacs wrote:
(there are actually about 3-4 really good ways to pull off melee blobbs).

Please share!

Zsolt wrote:

 ansacs wrote:
(there are actually about 3-4 really good ways to pull off melee blobbs).

Please share!

I second that.

Okay I will share my opinions and tricks to make melee blobbs good and then share some example combinations and lists. Keep in mind I have not played at a GT with any of these but I have put them against copies of those lists (though with players less seasoned). I also make all my lists with a BAO or NOVA style game play in mind. So there is scoring during the game but also a final objective/KP mechanism.

The important part to make melee blobbs work is 1) to either increase mobility and thus reduce damage to the blobb before it can charge or to increase durability and 2) support the blobb properly with an army that can cover it's weaknesses.

One of the great things about an infantry blobb army is that there aren't really any flyers anymore that you have to worry about. The heldrake was pretty much it before but with the nerf to the weapon it only gets 1-2 shots a game on the blobb now so you can ignore them. This means you can mostly ignore AA needs and just concentrate scoring and killing serpents and knights. In fact due to the melee blobb being very good at controlling the center board and killing infantry you can almost exclusively focus the rest of your list on 1) quick mobile scoring, 2) killing imperial knights, 3) killing waveserpent, 4) targeted killing of important models in that order.

There are a few key independent characters that make power blobbs work. Their special abilities layered are what make the magic work.
1) Mobility enhancers
*A) Lias Issodon http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/B/badabupdate-v2.pdf from the Raptors. When you make him your warlord you automatically get Master of Ambush which allows you to infiltrate himself and 3 non vehicle units. If your meta allows you to infiltrate units due to the IC having infiltrate then you can do some amazing things with this. If not then you will burn through all the infiltrate choices just getting the blobb and attaches into position. Also has shrouded so the unit becomes pretty resilient to most shooting. I recommend taking 2 minimum units of scouts w/ combi weapon sarge. They can help with MC or vehicles and having more infiltrators just amplifies the tactic. If your meta allows IC to infiltrate units then you can pull some amazing tricks where you don't deploy a single unit and infiltrate the whole army, in this type of army I will take a unit or two or conscripts + priest so infiltrate in my opponents way or on forward objectives.
*B) Xenos Inquistior w/ liber, ML1, servo skulls, and full set of grenades. This guy can give his unit scout which is best when combined with infiltrate but is still helpful even alone. Also the hammer hands and inquisition grenades are god like when combined with 50+ models going into combat. The servo skulls are useful for keeping infiltrators off of your backfield units as you may lack your own bubble wrap units (seeing how you are scouting and possibly infiltrating 50 infantry already).
*C) Cypher. He only works if your meta allows IC to infiltrate units. He is a very expensive way to infiltrate the unit but he does give perhaps the best USR in the game called hit and run. Being able to bounce out of combat into the unit behind the front line is amazing and it can really help the blobb make up for it's slow movement speed.

2) Durability enhancers
*A) Azrael Chapter Master of Dark Angels. He gives the unit a 4++ invulnerable. He absolutely needs to be combined with a mobility enhancer and you should take at least 1 additional priest. Thus allowing rerolls of the 4++ in close combat. Another fun character to combine him with is a sanctic psyker to increase the invulnerable save by +1 for a 3++ or a null rod liber inquisitor to scout the unit and make it invulnerable to psyker stuff. If you take him I take him as primary so I can take 3 man ravenwing bike units with double melta as troops, they are good anti tank and good mobile scoring.
*B) Sevrin Loth can be used to make two entirely different types of power blobbs. The first is using telepathy for invisibility and shrouding. Makes the blobb very hard to kill and combined with a mobility enhancer can make this blobb very threatening. With the addition of culexus assassins and 30 power dice lists this is open to some uphill matchups. The second method is to add HWTs to the blobb and use endurance to let them fire the weapons as they move (not to mention the 4+ FnP). Loth also becomes pretty nasty with iron army and warp speed on him and can tank wound incredibly with endurance and his 2++ invulnerable ability. The great thing about the endurance blobb is that it has very good anti tank and decent anti MC even as it moves into position so it doesn't necessarily need a mobility enhancer to work. Either way you will need to get to at least 10 warp charges in this list or you will almost assuredly loose against high WC generating armies (10+d6 (13 average) WC needs an opponents with 36+ WC to consistently block you out).

3) Damage enhancers
*A) Priest. Normally zealot and the reroll wounds hymn are the only part that matters. If you take Azzy or take enough psykers to try and get fore warning then the reroll save can be worthwhile.
*B) Yarrick. He fulfills your mandatory HQ, can be attached to your artillery or your blobb depending on opponent and his orders make your blobb a flexible nightmare to deal with. Opponent DS a unit just behind the blobb to distract it? Forwards for the emperor and shoot the unit while still running forward. Out of position? Run run run. Fail that critical charge in front of a fire warrior gunline? GtG and get back into the fight next turn. or snipe the ethereal out with ~50 precision shots. He is flexible and can accept most challengers and have a fair shot to at least survive.
*C) Xenos Inquistior as listed above. He is just that good.

I use 3 different builds for my power blobbs.
1) My usual build is; 5 Infantry Squads, 5 flamers, 5 sarges w/ power axe and meltabombs, and 1 priest (reroll wounds hymn)
*essentially the flamers are to help when I get charged. The wall of death ability of 5 flamers can be a helpful addition especially when you go up against our greentide counterpart.
2) 5 Infantry Squads, 5 meltaguns, 5 sarges w/ power axe and meltabombs, and 1 priest (reroll wounds hymn)
*This is what I use if I can get both infiltrate and scout into the bolbb at the same time. ie when I take inquisitor w/ book and one of the infiltration options. This allows a nice little alpha strike.
3) 5 Infantry Squads, 5 plasmaguns, 5 lascannon HWTs, 5 sarges w/ power axe and meltabombs, and 1 priest (reroll wounds hymn)
*This is only used when I am taking Loth and Yarrick. Essentially Loth uses endurance and Yarrick gives the unit his variety of orders. The army needs a number of extra psykers though and can be open to bad matches where the opponent brings too many power dice. Still this army can be incredibly powerful when you get prescience, forewarning, perfect timing, and endurance off on the blobb all at the same time and you start applying orders. Still suffers from the stars aligning symptoms.

IMO the list balance is even more important than the exact composition of the power blobb. Essentially I never use more than 50% of my points on the blobb and I will take 1 mobility or durability option and a damage enhancer or two. If you go with the endurance blobb you can afford to put a bit more points into the blobb as it can contribute to your ranged output too. The important units that make my lists work are;
1) Fast early game scoring is very important if you play score as you go missions. Even infiltrating you will struggle to score those early turn back field objectives. Thus there are a few units that can help greatly.
*A) Ravenwing 3 man biker units. With scout these are great turn 1 scoring and can be outflanked if you don't need it. They can also help run down vehicles and kill imperial knights.
*B) Red Scorpion drop pod SM TAC squads w/ meltagun and combi melta on apothecary. Drop on objective and you can both do some damage and have a relatively hard to kill unit.
*C) Raptors 5 man SM scout squad w/ combi grav. A nice little MC hunter and if you need extra speed you can add a landspeeder storm. Remember they get infiltrate and scout standard as well as having heavy 1 rending bolters if they don't move.
*D) Inquistion Henchmen; psyker + 2 crudaders or 4 bolter henchmen in a psiback. Decent firepower and gives an extra WC. Alternatively you can take just the psyker + 2 henchmen.

Overall these units are dependent on your choice of forces you use for your blobb. Unfortunately AM has no good early game scoring options worth speaking of.

2) Imperial Knight killers. Imperial Knights can wipe out a power blobb shockingly fast and most of the blobbs (excluding Azzy 4++ blobb) will at best be double KOed by a single imperial knight due to the stomps and explosion. Not to mention knights are fast enough to kite you if they need to. Also may the dice gods help you if you go against an acheron or castigator... Thus the first addition to any of my lists is a unit that can kill an imperial knight in a single turn (at least if they don't center the shield on them). My favorite options are;
*A) A unit of 3 Medusa Heavy Artillery Carriages with bastion breacher shells. The unit will usually average almost 6 HP on the AV13 facing if the knight doesn't put it's shield there. This also has a 48" range. With the ignore cover order this unit can HP strip a waveserpent every turn. Very effective anti tank and pretty decent anti MC. The unit is also extremely durable. The only problem with the unit is that it is immobile. A fun trick is to use Issodon's ability can be used to infiltrate the artillery into the opponent's deployment zone behind your power blobb so you can have 2 anti tank weapons at a 90 degree angle from each other (assuming you keep something in your deployment zone).
*B) Rapier las destroyer batteries they are cheapish and when combined with ignore cover orders are very effective against serpents as well. The 36" range is an issue.
*C) CCS w/ plasma giving themselves tank hunters (you will need a stormraven or vendetta to deliver them).
*D) Demolition vets w/ 3 meltaguns. Essentially you stuff them into a stormraven or you can even just infiltrate them if you face an all imperial knight army. They shoot and charge whatever vehicle or poor melee MC you need dead and most targets die.

3) The other necessary thing is something to kill fast skimmers with good cover saves. ie waveserpents. You may have noticed that most of the above options are also good against waveserpents with the addition of orders to ignore cover. This is by design (in fact this is why the list is so short). Another option that really stands out of it's use against serpents is the sicaran with schism of mars. This unit can actually be pretty effective against imperial knights as part of a 1-2 combination with one of the above units to draw the knights AV13 side and shield. Also the fast speed allows you to maneouvre to better positions. The sicaran is unbelievably effective against serpents though and will essentially kill a serpent a turn if allowed to. Don't forget the dozer blade so you don't immobilize it out of LoS of those witch xenos vehicles.

4) Targeted killing of important models can take games you will loose and make them cake walks. Whether this is kill Be'Lakor who is sneaking around behind a building or a grimoire herald out of a unit. The important part is usually this needs to be a barrage weapon that can stack a bunch of wounds.
*A) Thudd guns.
*B) Wyvern. Interesting note about a unit of wyverns is that if you use them right you have a fair shot to kill a thunderfire cannon in a single turn. Shred is awesome.
*C) Thunderfire cannon

I will post up some example lists later. They are just combinations of these elements into a cohesive whole and honestly they need optimizing to the meta and mission types. The major "archtype" melee blobbs in this list that are really good are; Azzy Inquisition blobb, Issodon Multiple blobbs, Loth Endurance blobb, and Cypher Loth Invisibile blobb. There are also some combination and variations of these which is why I said 4-5.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wow, sorry for the length of that...I didn't realize it was that long.

Honestly, If I have the points, I give out power axes where I can. At I3 my guard are swinging last anyway, and S4/AP2 might actually do something if he does survive. If I get challenged, I just send in one of the sarges that I couldn't afford anything for, and use the rest to cut down the opposing unit.

As for the opening post, I usually don't upgrade their ranged weapon. If I could I'd give my sarges las guns.

I give them nothing typically for the following reasons

1: I don't have them modeled with anything

2: their stats are so bad they usually don't make good enough use of anything to warrant the cost

3: they don't usually live long enough once close to the enemy to warrant anything

4: the cost of most upgrades is often a significant portion of the units base cost (e.g. a powerweapon ins 25% of the units base cost), and as such, not taking them means I can take lots more units relative to most other armies.

Ig sarges with power axes are killin' stuff. Especially when there's a priest left. And let's face it, there's alwayz a priest. 3-4 s4 ap2 attacks with hatred ain't nothing to sniff at.

I've seen ig blobz with Azrael, Priest and Xeno inquisitor roll over mellee units like no big deal. The guyz are also killing MC and wrecking tanks if you get a bunch of krak nades for cheapo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You can go for Tigurius instead of Azrael and hope to roll 4++, invisibility or fnp and relentless but he's less reliable than Azrael. However, Tig's more versatile and helps with reserves. Especially useful if you've got a few flyers or deepstriking scions. And he can net you other useful stuff too.