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I guess when the term competitive comes up we are looking for a larger sample size than 9 games. And it sounds like you played a tournament, but because you said there were homebrew missions it doesn't sound like it was a large sponsored event or anything.

I mean with how random this game is and how varied most armies can be, you can win with almost any list, depending on who you are playing and how the dice fair that day.

But at some point lists begin to get much tighter and the cheese starts to accumulate. And it is at this level that we are looking to see how the Orks fair. What kind of list does it take to make your opponent get frustrated that no matter what they do, they can't seem to win. A list that can take down the Flying circus builds, the triptides, the Tyranid Swarms, the Wave Serpent Spam and so on.

My own ork army did take down the Triple Tide list and did kill the Wave Spam list. It never fought the Daemon Flying Circus (I basically just avoid that army... I mean whats the point?)

Tyranidsi did well against but morale was an issue and he tied me. Still, the battlefield was pretty much empty by games end so i did well there. My war buggies grounded the Flyrants and allowed me to kill one of them, and the other i kinda whittled to death as I tromped across the field towards squishy ground pounders. Just took me too long to get to them basically. Still, a competitive game.

Had a really big win against Space marines and blood angels and the rest fo the cast and crew.

i dunno. it worked. So Thats the only experience i can share. My new list will be different since those orks were ones I was just borrowing. I now actually have orcs of my own. So I'll be working on this very problem quite soon.

Icculus wrote:I guess when the term competitive comes up we are looking for a larger sample size than 9 games. And it sounds like you played a tournament, but because you said there were homebrew missions it doesn't sound like it was a large sponsored event or anything.
But at some point lists begin to get much tighter and the cheese starts to accumulate. And it is at this level that we are looking to see how the Orks fair. What kind of list does it take to make your opponent get frustrated that no matter what they do, they can't seem to win. A list that can take down the Flying circus builds, the triptides, the Tyranid Swarms, the Wave Serpent Spam and so on.

Jancoran wrote:My own ork army did take down the Triple Tide list and did kill the Wave Spam list. It never fought the Daemon Flying Circus (I basically just avoid that army... I mean whats the point?)

Sorry, but I'm agreeing with Icculus here on this one. This all seems a bit iffy. It sounds like you won by praying relentlessly to the dice gods. If you're favourite units are typically high risk ones then the chance that you'll continue to win at tournaments is VERY low.

Basically avoiding an army which causes issues, because "whats the point" isn't how tournaments go. You don't get to choose the fights in tournaments, THAT'S the point. As you said, you won by "being the better player" which, no offense, sounds a bit like bragging without the floor beneith your feet, especailly when your describing the SAG as "the big gun". Maybe that's just me, but the SAG is one of the most iconic weapons in the Ork codex because of it's randomness.

If you were the better player, then I worry how good/bad the people you played against were. I would REALLY love to see one of your lists.

Sketchyfk wrote:
This all seems a bit iffy. It sounds like you won by praying relentlessly to the dice gods. If you're favourite units are typically high risk ones then the chance that you'll continue to win at tournaments is VERY low.

I agree with your statement, but tbh, draigostar works on just as much 'luck' except your attempting to avoid this kind of 'luck'. Most of the competitive/cheese lists basically look to build a unit that has a very low chance of receiving damage, usually through the combination of; high saves, FnP, invis or just high armour and powerful weapons (knights), or spam of something that is totally broken, scythe spam, wave spam.

All those lists do is attempt to remove the element of failure, the deathstars require 'unlucky' rolls, or in reality, simply for you to roll better than average on 3-4 rolls a turn to ensure your entire army is basically unscathed. Its not like statistically you cant kill a deathstar, its just that with them rolling a few extra 2's instead of those ones your statistically promised, they have negated a much larger proportion.

For example:
Draigostar and IG guardsmen with equal points costs. In order to kill draigostar you need some incredible rolls, you could shoot your entire army at it and more than likely still do nothing. Then do the same shooting at those IG guardsmen, likely you'll do a considerable amount of wounds and so forth, but it doesn't matter exactly how much, as the point is; with the draigostar you are basically condensing all those wound saves into 3-4 wounds, of which you are likely to save, but each save simply means more. They are lists that work on extremities, a few bad rolls and its bye bye. They are complete rock, paper, scissors. They will be totally countered by certain lists simply due to the fact that they cannot deal with a certain something, and due to having a huge amount of points sunk into them they usually dont have much other support that is capable of it either.

If you dont realise that these units are completely High Risk units (as they pin all there hopes on not getting a few 'bad' rolls), So for example in a tournament scene, these types of lists typically might go really strong and go like 8-0, then hit the knockout rounds, where through a few bad rolls they lose. The 'general' will then be like 'oh well i rolled badly', when in fact he was just gambling with a high risk strategy that involved praying to the dice gods to get invis off, or not to get 1's. These types of lists actually lower the skill cap required to play them, as your removing as much of your own ability to make mistakes, but when you do make a mistake it will probably be a real big balls up.

Plus someone has to win a tournament, so one of these high risk lists will probably be it, was probably a good day for his rolls.

Sketchyfk wrote:

Sorry, but I'm agreeing with Icculus here on this one. This all seems a bit iffy. It sounds like you won by praying relentlessly to the dice gods. If you're favourite units are typically high risk ones then the chance that you'll continue to win at tournaments is VERY low.

Basically avoiding an army which causes issues, because "whats the point" isn't how tournaments go. You don't get to choose the fights in tournaments, THAT'S the point. As you said, you won by "being the better player" which, no offense, sounds a bit like bragging without the floor beneith your feet, especailly when your describing the SAG as "the big gun". Maybe that's just me, but the SAG is one of the most iconic weapons in the Ork codex because of it's randomness.

If you were the better player, then I worry how good/bad the people you played against were. I would REALLY love to see one of your lists.

Im sorry... This was pretty insulting, uncalled for and baseless. Especially coming from someone whose never stepped foot to a table I was at even once, let alone multiple times. Whats iffy? It happened. That's it. What are you even talking about? I BORROWED the pieces to play the army from the guy who got me into the hobby. I used them and did it to have fun. I didn't own an ork, nor there codex beforehand. I just wanted to try them. I did. It was great fun.

I avoided THE army I hate playing against. Like the plague. Because its no fun and i was new with orks. And that's that. At the tournament I took it to, there were no Daemons to fight. Thankfully. but yes, if forced, i would play them. And lose. But then did i really care? I was playing orks, a joy unto itself.

As for seeing the list, that's REALLY easy because I posted it on my blog. I played it a few more times after the blog but whatevs.

Time stamped and dated article for your perusal

Not only that but you can even see other battle reports Ive done.

I'm not normally an ork player so i dont give a RIP what the big gun was called. Thats the great thing about orks. If its a thingee with the thingee, close enough.

 Jancoran wrote:
If its a thingee with the thingee, close enough.

Dat's how i run my big gunz.

Here is the list I use for 1k. So far it's been undefeated since the codex came out, and I play just about once a week.

Warboss w/mega armour, lucky stikk, bosspole

5x nobs w/ shoota and big choppa, 'eavy armour, trukk w/rokkit launcha, painboy

2x squads of trukk boyz. 11 boyz, boss nob with pk and bosspole, 'eavy armour, trukk w/rokkit launcha

Boss Zagstruk (warlord)
15x Stormboyz

3x warbuggies w/rokkit launcha.

Warbuggies offer a screen for the trukks so my opponent either has to clear the buggies, which wastes firepower, or let me take a cover save if they target trukks. Due to the speed of the trukks I'll be in CC on turn 2. Stormboyz either advance behind the cover of the trukks, or if their is enough LOS blocking terrain they use that. I always keep Zagstruk close enough to allow the squads to benefit from his warlord trait, and that long with the boss poles mean I pretty much never run, and it's also helped me against mindshackle scarabs. Zagstuk is also AMAZING at killing warlords with his S8 AP2 HoW attack, also getting 6 attacks on the charge with his high str helps as well. Warboss with mega armour and lucky stikk is next to impossible to kill with shooting, so he's always up front and soaking up fire.

It's not the most competitive 1k list, but I just LOVE stormboys and buggies, they're my favorite models. In addition the meta in my LGS is very defensive oriented so I'm the only player with a 100% assault-oriented army.

Does Zaggy allow to WAAAGH if he's your warlord?

 koooaei wrote:
Does Zaggy allow to WAAAGH if he's your warlord?

Sadly no, he doesn't have the WAAAGH! rule. I think the only IC that does have it is Ghazhghkull :(

 Jancoran wrote:

Sketchyfk wrote:

Sorry, but I'm agreeing with Icculus here on this one. This all seems a bit iffy. It sounds like you won by praying relentlessly to the dice gods....

Im sorry... This was pretty insulting, uncalled for and baseless. Especially coming from someone whose never stepped foot to a table I was at even once, let alone multiple times. Whats iffy? It happened. That's it. What are you even talking about? I BORROWED the pieces to play the army from the guy who got me into the hobby. I used them and did it to have fun. I didn't own an ork, nor there codex beforehand. I just wanted to try them. I did. It was great fun...
As for seeing the list, that's REALLY easy because I posted it on my blog. I played it a few more times after the blog but whatevs.
Time stamped and dated article for your perusal

Not only that but you can even see other battle reports Ive done.

I'm really sorry, I tried to word that in the least insulting way possible. I read your blog yesterday afternoon and i didn't see that list. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. That list IS pre-7th ed though, and unfortunately I can't see any battle reports on your blog. Specifically i see:
"Well I won't bore you with Batreps on it. it went 7-1 and I felt suddenly a lot better. The loss was in a tournament at the top table. And do you know what? While the Meganobz were the MVP's, the Gretchin were the main catalyst and were SURPRISINGLY useful."

I know i'll just be missing them. The battle reports would be awesome to judge the kinds of lists you went up against as I didn't think sperent spam was around back in September of last year. As your list is pre-7th ed, it would be good to see how it survived in 7th these days.

 Grimskul wrote:
Sadly no, he doesn't have the WAAAGH! rule. I think the only IC that does have it is Ghazhghkull :(

He does have the Waaagh! special rule (p17 Forge World Dred Mob Update PDF). In fact, almost all of the characters in the Dred Mob listing still have it, including the Painboss. Note however that not all of these units can be taken by a standard Orks army... most notably the Painboss. Also note that not a single one of these units have 'Ere We Go!, which is required to benefit from a Waaagh!. So, if Zaggy is joined to a squad of regular Ork Codex Boyz, they can't charge after running in a Waaagh!.
Misread! Sorry guys.

 Dilt wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Sadly no, he doesn't have the WAAAGH! rule. I think the only IC that does have it is Ghazhghkull :(

He does have the Waaagh! special rule (p17 Forge World Dred Mob Update PDF). In fact, almost all of the characters in the Dred Mob listing still have it, including the Painboss. Note however that not all of these units can be taken by a standard Orks army... most notably the Painboss.

Um...don't know where you thought where me and Koooaei were referring to Zhadsnark but we were talking about Zaggy as in Boss Zagstruk, in the main Ork codex not the Dred Mob detachment/army. So no, he doesn't.

Derp! Sorry about that, 2AM syndrome!

Boss Zagstruk indeed lacks Waaagh!.

Sketchyfk wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Sketchyfk wrote:

Sorry, but I'm agreeing with Icculus here on this one. This all seems a bit iffy. It sounds like you won by praying relentlessly to the dice gods....

Im sorry... This was pretty insulting, uncalled for and baseless. Especially coming from someone whose never stepped foot to a table I was at even once, let alone multiple times. Whats iffy? It happened. That's it. What are you even talking about? I BORROWED the pieces to play the army from the guy who got me into the hobby. I used them and did it to have fun. I didn't own an ork, nor there codex beforehand. I just wanted to try them. I did. It was great fun...
As for seeing the list, that's REALLY easy because I posted it on my blog. I played it a few more times after the blog but whatevs.
Time stamped and dated article for your perusal

Not only that but you can even see other battle reports Ive done.

I'm really sorry, I tried to word that in the least insulting way possible. I read your blog yesterday afternoon and i didn't see that list. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. That list IS pre-7th ed though, and unfortunately I can't see any battle reports on your blog. Specifically i see:
"Well I won't bore you with Batreps on it. it went 7-1 and I felt suddenly a lot better. The loss was in a tournament at the top table. And do you know what? While the Meganobz were the MVP's, the Gretchin were the main catalyst and were SURPRISINGLY useful."

I know i'll just be missing them. The battle reports would be awesome to judge the kinds of lists you went up against as I didn't think sperent spam was around back in September of last year. As your list is pre-7th ed, it would be good to see how it survived in 7th these days.

Serpent spam was DEFINITELY around in 6E! the Eldar codex came out for 6E. So did Tau Empire. As I am primarily a Tau general, defeating Triple Tide wasnt nearly as challenging as Wave Spam, but it was tough, especially when it was new.

As for more recent games, the only one I think I did a kind of sort of report on was this one: Orks orks orks orks

There were others on various forums...

 Jancoran wrote:

Sketchyfk wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Sketchyfk wrote:

Sorry, but I'm agreeing with Icculus here on this one. This all seems a bit iffy. It sounds like you won by praying relentlessly to the dice gods....

Im sorry... This was pretty insulting, uncalled for and baseless. Especially coming from someone whose never stepped foot to a table I was at even once, let alone multiple times. Whats iffy? It happened. That's it. What are you even talking about? I BORROWED the pieces to play the army from the guy who got me into the hobby. I used them and did it to have fun. I didn't own an ork, nor there codex beforehand. I just wanted to try them. I did. It was great fun...
As for seeing the list, that's REALLY easy because I posted it on my blog. I played it a few more times after the blog but whatevs.
Time stamped and dated article for your perusal
Not only that but you can even see other battle reports Ive done.

I'm really sorry, I tried to word that in the least insulting way possible. I read your blog yesterday afternoon and i didn't see that list. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. That list IS pre-7th ed though, and unfortunately I can't see any battle reports on your blog. Specifically i see:
"Well I won't bore you with Batreps on it. it went 7-1 and I felt suddenly a lot better. The loss was in a tournament at the top table. And do you know what? While the Meganobz were the MVP's, the Gretchin were the main catalyst and were SURPRISINGLY useful."

I know i'll just be missing them. The battle reports would be awesome to judge the kinds of lists you went up against as I didn't think sperent spam was around back in September of last year. As your list is pre-7th ed, it would be good to see how it survived in 7th these days.

Serpent spam was DEFINITELY around in 6E! the Eldar codex came out for 6E. So did Tau Empire. As I am primarily a Tau general, defeating Triple Tide wasnt nearly as challenging as Wave Spam, but it was tough, especially when it was new.

As for more recent games, the only one I think I did a kind of sort of report on was this one: Orks orks orks orks
There were others on various forums...

Ah, from my experience of 6th ed was that most people I knew were running Tau and Eldar allies (or vice versa) and so triple tides and wave spam weren't common place, as people would typically run Wraithknigths and Riptide combos. Most people in 6th seemed to prefer those lists rather than serpent spam.

Thought I had replied to this, but maybe not....

I give orks a low rating, but I guess I really don't have much experience with them. I'm just daunted by the actual cost of running a horde army like that, so I'll stick with my low count elite armies!

Though I can say that Nobz are not as wimpy as everyone makes out. They are probably the best cheap assault troops in the game, especially when supported properly by a wave of boys

darkcloak wrote:
Thought I had replied to this, but maybe not....

I give orks a low rating, but I guess I really don't have much experience with them. I'm just daunted by the actual cost of running a horde army like that, so I'll stick with my low count elite armies!

Though I can say that Nobz are not as wimpy as everyone makes out. They are probably the best cheap assault troops in the game, especially when supported properly by a wave of boys

Yeah, the use of Nobz has been debated extensively. They CAN be useful, but they are usually just overshadowed by the other Elite choices we have. (Namely, their bigger cousins, Mega Nobz for a bit of a premium for more survivability and killiness) But they CAN be used cleverly if your opponent just overlooks them, or gets nervous and focus fires on em (since other stuff lives in this case). Their main problem is just that they are 2 wounds, which is awesome...but T4...so they insta splat to the special weapon spam in most Tac Marine squads and they have no reliable way to stay alive to do their job...which is to pretty much strictly swing axes and klaws around.

Sketchyfk wrote:

Ah, from my experience of 6th ed was that most people I knew were running Tau and Eldar allies (or vice versa) and so triple tides and wave spam weren't common place, as people would typically run Wraithknigths and Riptide combos. Most people in 6th seemed to prefer those lists rather than serpent spam.

Perhaps but our General pool here is DEEP. Like REALLY deep. Within 2 hours of us are a ridiculous cavalcade of Warhammer 40K superstars, in my opinion. I think part of the gravitation to wave spam was simply the fact that some of our good generals already played that way and the ones who took up Tau were new to it and so they latched on to the 'Tides because they didn't already own a large force. I was the lone Tau general around here for a pretty long time, with an occasional dabbler here or there. So when Tau became a "thing" i think most of the players who tried it, did so with both money and efficacy in mind.

So as for Orks, I now have my own force of them and will be trying out things but Meganobz were such INCREDIBLE MVP's that I definitely have them in my future plans.

I preface my opinion with the fact that I have only played Orks with this Codex, and I've played a single five round single elimination tournament with them, as well as a league (10-12 games I think). Without trying to create a 'perfect list', these were my observations:

1) Variety is your friend. Quality ork units are relatively cheap (Standard nobz, ttankbustas, sorta flash gitz). One of these will die. Possibly/probably two. But if you play it right, one of your big punches should be able to crunch an enemy and put a serious hurt on him. Orks have ironically been one of the trickier and more 'tactical ' armies I've ever played. Deployment and timing are critical.

2) I played against the green tide. It wasn't fun, but in the end I broke them because of outflankers that gave me extra VP's for linebreaker and seizing objectives. The outflanks ability of Trukks and buggies has proved VERY useful. 5 TL Rokkits showing up behind enemy armor is loads of fun, and distracts shooting from your quality ladz (as per above)

3) Nobz are friggin nasty. I haven't run Mega Nobz yet, but just my block of 10 with 'eavy armor and a pain boy have crunched the living hell out of most of my opponents. They usually ride in a trukk or battlewagon behind some cover until they can whip out and tear into something. I run 2 PK's in the a nd the rest as Big Choppas. Most opponents forget they have two wound a piece until it's too late.

4) Pain Boys are your friend. Or maybe I just get insanely lucky with these rolls, but they make the boyz just a tad tougher, and this tends to wreck with a lot of lists I've seen.

So to answer your question, I've found a few key ingredients, but not a single list. A huge amount of it depends on the ork player being able to properly deploy and predict what he's gonna face. Once one or two things go wrong, most of it tends to go to hell.

As was stated earlier Ork units are very specialized. But what about taking smaller squads of Burnas? In a squad of 6 you could have half burnas and half meks with megablastas? Seems like there is some room there to build a more general purpose squad. Maybe it doesn't work though. Has anyone tried? I took a squad like this in a kill team game against the IG and it paid off.

 Makinit wrote:
As was stated earlier Ork units are very specialized. But what about taking smaller squads of Burnas? In a squad of 6 you could have half burnas and half meks with megablastas? Seems like there is some room there to build a more general purpose squad. Maybe it doesn't work though. Has anyone tried? I took a squad like this in a kill team game against the IG and it paid off.

I've generally found that after taking casualties, mixed squads rarely have enough firepower to make a difference. BS 2 for orks is the reason this doesn't work as well as it might have with say, space Marines. Generally if I run something I spam it, so that I can take the inevitable casualties and still be combat effective.

 Kajaki War Pig wrote:

 Makinit wrote:
As was stated earlier Ork units are very specialized. But what about taking smaller squads of Burnas? In a squad of 6 you could have half burnas and half meks with megablastas? Seems like there is some room there to build a more general purpose squad. Maybe it doesn't work though. Has anyone tried? I took a squad like this in a kill team game against the IG and it paid off.

I've generally found that after taking casualties, mixed squads rarely have enough firepower to make a difference. BS 2 for orks is the reason this doesn't work as well as it might have with say, space Marines. Generally if I run something I spam it, so that I can take the inevitable casualties and still be combat effective.

Hmm this is an interesting idea, I get your concern that once you've taken a few wounds your dramstically reduced in firepower, But what about the idea of spammed MSU's with multi-roles. So 5 burnas, 3 KMB's in a trukk x3. That way you've got 3 units that can put out plenty of firepower towards armour as they advance, then lay down the hurt with flamers when close.

Advantages;
Orks are a little lackluster when you only take 1 unit, for example a single unit of lootas is likely to recieve quite a bit of attention, so by taking 2+ your increasing threat saturation and allowing multiple targets. If I was to say take a unit of burna boys in a trukk I imagine it would be pretty quickly that their footslogging, with probably a couple casualties. But with 2 trukks and 2 half units, you can effectively decide which weapon to lose.

Solar Shock wrote:


Advantages;
Orks are a little lackluster when you only take 1 unit, for example a single unit of lootas is likely to recieve quite a bit of attention, so by taking 2+ your increasing threat saturation and allowing multiple targets. If I was to say take a unit of burna boys in a trukk I imagine it would be pretty quickly that their footslogging, with probably a couple casualties. But with 2 trukks and 2 half units, you can effectively decide which weapon to lose.

I'd rephrase a bit:
Orks are a little lackluster when you loose focus.

There are some units that work better when there are more of them like when you're got a wagon, you always want a second one. And even better a third one for simultanious threat saturation. Or when you have 1 footslogging squad, you want a second one to cover the other part of the board or support the 1-st one. They shouldn't necesserely be identical - you can have a squad of choppas supported by shootas or shootas supported by, say, nobz or flash gitz.

But there are also some units that work best when there are fewer of them. For example, a single truck in a footslogging army. 1 is easy to hide. When you take multiples, you're risking to just get 1 hidden and 1 exposed truck. Same goes to stormboyz.

The trick is to stick to the theme. Not necesserely spam, but rather find synergy. Once again, timing is important. Sometimes it's more benefical to have 2 squads of truckboyz.Sometimes it's better to have 1 squad of truckboyz and a MANz missile. But it's almost never worth it to have half your army footslogging and halfyour army rushing forward. If you go half-way here and half-way there, you're getting nowhere. But a little trick will only add to flexibility and won't do much harm if it doesn't work. Like a truck of tankbustas or manz in a greentide list. Or a squad of grots in a speed freak list for scoring and bauble-wrapping purposes.

I can agree with the above, seeing it on the opposite side of the table damn near weekly. My wife ALWAYS begins list building with two Battlewagons, one with full Tankbustas, and one with 3-5 MANZ.

Even though I should know to focus one of those down... how do you deal with that Sophie's Choice? Either one making it into threat-range is going to ruin something in your army.

I play Tyranids often, and the same goes there... no matter what I THOUGHT 40k was when I started playing, I have found in reality it is a game about...

1. Mobility
2. Target Priority/Saturation

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I can agree with the above, seeing it on the opposite side of the table damn near weekly. My wife ALWAYS begins list building with two Battlewagons, one with full Tankbustas, and one with 3-5 MANZ.

Even though I should know to focus one of those down... how do you deal with that Sophie's Choice? Either one making it into threat-range is going to ruin something in your army.

I play Tyranids often, and the same goes there... no matter what I THOUGHT 40k was when I started playing, I have found in reality it is a game about...

1. Mobility
2. Target Priority/Saturation

This is so true. It seems that especially this edition so much of winning or losing revolves around trying to force your opponent into making tough decisions. Just look at the list from the dude who won nova. Sure at its base it's serpent spam, but there are other elements such as swooping hawks, wraithknight, etc. that force the opponent to make tough commitments to different aspects of the list as opposed to a more pure serpent spam where you basically have only one option. I think a lot of units, like swooping hawks, are overlooked because they aren't super tough or killy, but they still play a very vital role in the army whether it's as a distraction, grabbing objectives, or just throwing another unit into the mix that messes with your opponents strategy.

I play GK when I am not playing my 'Nids, and I often gripe about the fact that I drop in Purifiers for the Cleansing Flame tricks, and then they get utterly destroyed... maybe just earning back their points if all goes well.

Thing is, I always forget that that one turn where my opponents entirely army was shooting them off the table, was the one where everything else rush advanced on them in complete safety.

So it isn't a zero-sum... I controlled the pace and table and set up the rest of my game. Net win for me.

Orks are like that. Opponents frequently get analysis paralysis because they can't afford to let any of your not terribly durable but very deadly options into their lines.

And if placed well, Battlewagon's double-down on highlighting this. Its can be damn hard to shift AV14 before it gets to you, so having multiples means they focus down one, or do insignificant damage to several. In either case you've forced a miserable decision on an opponent.

Yeah I will agree that multiple Battle wagons seems to be a strong play for orks. really the upgrades on it are unnecesary. Just need the AV 14 to annoy people with.

How do orks deal with Adamantium Lance?

How are Warbikers? I want to build a biker themed army since the idea of a bunch of screaming, obnoxious and bald aliens on extremely loud motorcycles is both hilarious and awesome.

 doktor_g wrote:
How do orks deal with Adamantium Lance?

I would say assaulting with a blob of boyz is the probably the ideal way to go. Just keep the pk's towards the back and you should be good to go. Blob of grots could probably do this too for even cheaper, so long as there's a pk/killsaw boss or mek in there to smack it around.