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I think anyone who reads the 40k segment of these forums have noticed a lot of discussion around some of the higher end Monstrous Creatures, particularly powerhouse units like the Nemesis Dreadknight, the Riptide and the Wraithknight.

These, and other units like them, are not just potent Monstrous Creatures, but are high toughness models with several wounds and extremely good saves, making them almost impossible to kill with ordinary weapons. Typically, they carry the firepower or melee capability (often both) to effectively eliminate units unsupported.

Putting one of these models on the table alters the way way the game is played. Placing 2, 3 or even more in play creates an imbalanced fight where one player can find large portions of their army essentially negated before play starts.

So, here is my proposal. These super Monstrous Creatures get moved into the Lords of War slot. This does not stop them from being played, but makes spamming them in Battle Forged armies uneconomical by forcing players to field additional weaker units to get them into play. Being in the Lords of War slot also recognizes the way they can change the nature of the battle simply by being present.

So what does everybody think? Would a change in FOC slot solve any of the contentious points about these units? Are their other units that deserve to be declared a Lord of War due to their battlefield impact?


EDIT: Also, as similar arguments could be made about Imperium Knights, perhaps an end to separate Knight detachments and Knights instead become a Lord of War choice for all Imperium armies (and Forgeworld's Chaos Knights from IA13 the same for Chaos forces).

im an ork player, the only thing super heavy mc we have is the forgeworld gargantuan squigoth, and its already listed as a lord of war. as for this rule change, i cant say i agree with it or not since i havent encountered this in my own games (i play mainly against tau and imp guard). i would say this is a house rule for other players, but be willing to give them trade offs. as far as tournaments go, you cant realy argue with them, but while many players go for waac (thus seeing more super heavy mc spam), there are plenty of others that play for the fun of it (themed lists), and my 1st tournament i want to go to sounds like its supports and rewards both types of players.

if people you play with dont want to take the hit to their stratagems, then you can refuse to play those lists until they concede, maybe suggest a type of downgrade to your own codex or bring lists designed for killing super heavy mcs. try anything that has "instant death," or force his mcs to take leadership tests (scare them off the board). i was playing my tau friend, and he almost always brings his riptide. one time to just put the tau "gundam" in its place i equipped my bigmek with mega armor and the telyport blasta and stuck him in a wagon. as soon as he got close enough to use his bit of orky tech, my big mek hit the riptide with the telyport blast and rolled a six, thus makeing it instant death (i also gave him plenty of ammo runts so he could make sure he hit). it was a humbling experience for the tau, especially since the game before i crushed that same riptide by ramming it with a trukk (another stratagem, tank shok those mcs, and watch as they eventually fail a "death or glory" check, instantly getting squished).

Not abad house-rule for local meta. Not LOW, however. Why not just limit it or make a specific FOC for such things. So that an eldar player will be able to take both a WK and Phantom-mega-game-breaker, for example cause it'd just leave WK out in huge games with LOW.

 koooaei wrote:
Not abad house-rule for local meta. Not LOW, however. Why not just limit it or make a specific FOC for such things. So that an eldar player will be able to take both a WK and Phantom-mega-game-breaker, for example cause it'd just leave WK out in huge games with LOW.

In bigger games the points would be there for you to run multiple detachments and thus multiple Lords of War.

This rule has a bigger effect on smaller games in which a two or three of these types of units can have an extremely disproportionate effect.


Geargutz, in regards to the solutions you mentioned, having to list tailor to beat a single Riptide more or less proves my point. What would you have done against two or three Riptides? Also, you managed to roll a lucky 6 there, counting on 6s from a single model is not exactly a sound strategy.

As for Tank Shocking and hoping he fails Death or Glory - Death or Glory is an optional rather than required attack. If my Riptide was being Tank Shocked by something with good front Armour, I'd not Death or Glory, I'd wait until he drove past for an easy shot at the rear armour. Being able to fire all my weapon's shots and use all my melee attacks is a lot more likely to get the kill than just doing a one-off. Now if you were tank shocking a unit with EMP Grenades or Melta Bombs, or something that would make easy meat of the front AV, then I might risk the lone infantry model who would die if I fail.

 koooaei wrote:
Not abad house-rule for local meta. Not LOW, however. Why not just limit it or make a specific FOC for such things. So that an eldar player will be able to take both a WK and Phantom-mega-game-breaker, for example cause it'd just leave WK out in huge games with LOW.

...Because the Lord of War slot is already a specific FOC for such things?

The problem becomes defining what is a super monster or whatever.

Is a Dreadknight?
What about a Daemon Prince?
A Tyranofex?
A Talos?

Of course a Dreadknight is one, that's the most broken MC around, followed by the Riptide and then Wraithknight.

Also, the OP already mentioned the Dreadknight being one.

SGTPozy wrote:
Of course a Dreadknight is one, that's the most broken MC around, followed by the Riptide and then Wraithknight.

Also, the OP already mentioned the Dreadknight being one.

Well you ignored the first and more important part of the post, and you got one of the four questions out of the second. That's what, 13%?

Here's your award:

raverrn wrote:
The problem becomes defining what is a super monster or whatever.

Is a Dreadknight?
What about a Daemon Prince?
A Tyranofex?
A Talos?

I'd say anything on the giant oval base, but the 'Nids have things on that base that aren't nearly so silly.

I'm talking about the really top tier ones. Stuff in the same league as the Dreadknight, Riptide and Wraithknight. Stuff that is also supposed to be incredibly rare.

There's also the fact that this is Proposed Rules. We don't have to come up with a consistent logical principle here, all we have to do is list off stuff that ought to be a Lord of War but isn't.

Dreadknight, Riptide, Wraithknight, and restricting Knights to Lords of War instead of their own detachment I'm hearing; as to other Monstrous Creatures Greater Daemons/Daemon Princes/most TMCs don't work since those are their armies' equivalent of tanks and restricting them puts them on an unfair footing against actual armour. That covers most MCs, am I missing any?

Jefffar wrote:
I'm talking about the really top tier ones. Stuff in the same league as the Dreadknight, Riptide and Wraithknight. Stuff that is also supposed to be incredibly rare.

Is it just those three? What about Flying Hive Tyrants or Fateweaver or the Throne of Judgement?

Is your only criteria "What Jefffar thinks is broken because reasons"?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
There's also the fact that this is Proposed Rules. We don't have to come up with a consistent logical principle here, all we have to do is list off stuff that ought to be a Lord of War but isn't.

You don't HAVE to do anything, but a logica, reasonable framework for what breaks the game would be nice.

Dreadknight, Riptide, Wraithknight, and restricting Knights to Lords of War instead of their own detachment I'm hearing; as to other Monstrous Creatures Greater Daemons/Daemon Princes/most TMCs don't work since those are their armies' equivalent of tanks and restricting them puts them on an unfair footing against actual armour. That covers most MCs, am I missing any?

Also: lol at Chaos needing daemon princes to pop tanks, but Grey Knights of all people are fine because they...have...other...methods...?

Did you even read that as you typed?

I'm of the opinion that when Eldar and Tau get new codecies, you'll hopefully see Wraithknights and Riptides in the LOW slot, so moving those two specifically to the LOW slot until their coddcies are re-done sounds pretty reasonable.

As for Dreadknights, I don't think they're too bad. The main thing is that they "fit" better in the GK army than either the Wraithknight or the Riptide.

Besides, I think they where put in to present a symmetry with Chaos Greater Daemons.

To be honest, grey areas are GW's specialty .
So, how would they define the properties of a LOW class model?

Also, keep in mind profit. (since this would be their first thought)

They would lose a fair chunk straight away.




However, (and this is my personal opinion) i really dont struggle with the big critters than walk the board now.
Yes, they are nasty and cause damage.
However, every army has the ability to put the same points into something else thats equally as damaging and not a LOW-esque model.

GW just have a poor time balancing books as they go.
Infact, internal balance of the dex's is pretty poor at the moment.

All in all though, people will complain about large monsters/walkers constantly.
Yet when you throw these points into something smaller (like a unit or tank) then you still have the same issue.


I rather face something big as i know its a fair chunk of points and i know it can be brought down when shot with the right weapons.

making them almost impossible to kill with ordinary weapons

This bit got me though.
You shoot a tank with a basic assault rifle you expect it to do anything?
Same applies here.
40k and WHFB for that matter has always been a case of using the right tool for the right job, its part of the strategy.

Anyone can line up an army of infantry, but that shouldnt mean that those models can kill off things like that.


Thats my thinking anyway.

raverrn wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Of course a Dreadknight is one, that's the most broken MC around, followed by the Riptide and then Wraithknight.

Also, the OP already mentioned the Dreadknight being one.

Well you ignored the first and more important part of the post, and you got one of the four questions out of the second. That's what, 13%?

Here's your award:

I only wanted to answer the Dreadknight part since that is in the top three for annoying MCs, the others are fine in my opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hunam0001 wrote:
I'm of the opinion that when Eldar and Tau get new codecies, you'll hopefully see Wraithknights and Riptides in the LOW slot, so moving those two specifically to the LOW slot until their coddcies are re-done sounds pretty reasonable.

As for Dreadknights, I don't think they're too bad. The main thing is that they "fit" better in the GK army than either the Wraithknight or the Riptide.

Besides, I think they where put in to present a symmetry with Chaos Greater Daemons.

I can't see 6thed codices being updated in a long time, and even when they will be I doubt it'll happen as why didn't they do it to the Dreadknight?

How do they 'fit' better? The Wraithknight is a bigger Wraithlord and the Riptide is a bigger Crisis suit, but what's the Dreadknight? A bigger Terminator? It doesn't look like a bigger Terminator...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Also: lol at Chaos needing daemon princes to pop tanks, but Grey Knights of all people are fine because they...have...other...methods...?

Did you even read that as you typed?

raverrn wrote:
Also: lol at Chaos needing daemon princes to pop tanks, but Grey Knights of all people are fine because they...have...other...methods...?

Did you even read that as you typed?

If you'd read what I typed you might notice that "their equivalent of tanks" is not the same thing as "their only tank-hunting tool", it also references the durability aspect, which GK have Land Raiders, Dreadnaughts, and such for. There's also the fact that the GK have Daemonhammers and can Deep Strike psycannons behind things, neither of which is an option available to Chaos Daemons.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

raverrn wrote:
Also: lol at Chaos needing daemon princes to pop tanks, but Grey Knights of all people are fine because they...have...other...methods...?

Did you even read that as you typed?

If you'd read what I typed you might notice that "their equivalent of tanks" is not the same thing as "their only tank-hunting tool", it also references the durability aspect, which GK have Land Raiders, Dreadnaughts, and such for. There's also the fact that the GK have Daemonhammers and can Deep Strike psycannons behind things, neither of which is an option available to Chaos Daemons.

Yeah man, Dreadnoughts are so super tough to kill. It's amazing how much fire an AV 12 6" move 6++ box can soak up.

Fantasy world.

raverrn wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

raverrn wrote:
Also: lol at Chaos needing daemon princes to pop tanks, but Grey Knights of all people are fine because they...have...other...methods...?

Did you even read that as you typed?

If you'd read what I typed you might notice that "their equivalent of tanks" is not the same thing as "their only tank-hunting tool", it also references the durability aspect, which GK have Land Raiders, Dreadnaughts, and such for. There's also the fact that the GK have Daemonhammers and can Deep Strike psycannons behind things, neither of which is an option available to Chaos Daemons.

Yeah man, Dreadnoughts are so super tough to kill. It's amazing how much fire an AV 12 6" move 6++ box can soak up.

Fantasy world.

Rather tougher to kill than T3/5++ Daemon infantry or T4/3+ PAGK, wouldn't you say?

The point of my remark was that without Dreadknights you're still facing a variety of different sorts of targets in a GK list (Flyers, heavy infantry, walkers, Land Raiders) but if you take the Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons out of the Daemons book the Soul Grinder is the only thing left that isn't hard-countered by bolters is the Soul Grinder.

 AnomanderRake wrote:


Rather tougher to kill than T3/5++ Daemon infantry or T4/3+ PAGK, wouldn't you say?

The point of my remark was that without Dreadknights you're still facing a variety of different sorts of targets in a GK list (Flyers, heavy infantry, walkers, Land Raiders) but if you take the Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons out of the Daemons book the Soul Grinder is the only thing left that isn't hard-countered by bolters is the Soul Grinder.

Soul Grinder, Seeker Chariot/Hellflayer, Skull Cannon and basically any Nurgle unit in cover.

And that's not even pointing out CSM has access to 'raiders and dreads AND Daemon Princes but that's okay somehow I suppose?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

I'd say anything on the giant oval base, but the 'Nids have things on that base that aren't nearly so silly.

You mean Dorkanaught will now occupy the same slot as a stompa? As if we're seeing an overdose of overpowered naughts.

It's a bit more complex task. Basically, it's making a list of what's overpowered. No matter the size. And if we're going in for trouble of making such list, we can also make a floating hardcap that's not 1.

For example:

Wraithknight - 1 per detachment
Riptide - 1 per detachment
Flyrant - 1 per detachment
Wave serpent - 2 per detachment
Imperial knight - 1 per detachment

 koooaei wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

I'd say anything on the giant oval base, but the 'Nids have things on that base that aren't nearly so silly.

You mean Dorkanaught will now occupy the same slot as a stompa? As if we're seeing an overdose of overpowered naughts.

It's a bit more complex task. Basically, it's making a list of what's overpowered. No matter the size. And if we're going in for trouble of making such list, we can also make a floating hardcap that's not 1.

For example:

Wraithknight - 1 per detachment
Riptide - 1 per detachment
Flyrant - 1 per detachment
Wave serpent - 2 per detachment
Imperial knight - 1 per detachment

You forgot Dreadknight - 1 per detachment

That was an example - not a full list

Okay, I just felt that you needed to include the Dreadknight as it is horribly broken