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 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
His comments are inflammatory to people who don't like him and are looking for a reason to use anything he does/says against him. As annoying as it is, there is no way anyone can deny that is absolutely the reality we live in.


It seems it's the case for each and every president of the US. Whatever he says or does someone will see it as exactly the wrong thing to do. Ofc, complaints about a president speaking about current matter are still (usually) reasonable.

The thread name made me think it would be about some fringe conspiracy theory. Like Obama importing ebola as part of his anti-gun agenda... Once the gun owners are down with the virus he can take their guns!
   
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 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:

Considering most of the time his comments inflame the sitatuation, yes he should stick to : every keep calm and carry on or shut the hell up.
EDIT: I will state that his comments last week after the Ferguson no bill were calm and exactly what was needed. of course no one listened, then he had the meeting with Sharpton. Bad move.
His comments are inflammatory to people who don't like him and are looking for a reason to use anything he does/says against him. As annoying as it is, there is no way anyone can deny that is absolutely the reality we live in.


Sure we can.
Pro-Tip don't make comments saying it could have been your kid when it turns out the kid was a thug trying to kill the other guy.
or Pro-TIp don't call out the cop in some local dispute when it turns out the prof is a douche and the cop was acting like a standard bearer for professionalism.

In other news this admin dropped charges against the New Black Panthers conspiring to blow up the Arch of St. Louis (and had explosives when caught) with mere illegal gun possession.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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I think we can take Zimmerman off the bingo card. And I don't understand the cabinets thing. There's only one thread with anything like that and it's in the DCM forum so most people never saw it.


 
   
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 Breotan wrote:
I think we can take Zimmerman off the bingo card. And I don't understand the cabinets thing. There's only one thread with anything like that and it's in the DCM forum so most people never saw it.



Kitchen Spam was a daily thing for quite a while here in the OT, but it has been gone for quite a while.

Zimmerman was mentioned a couple days ago though.
   
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 d-usa wrote:
Kitchen Spam was a daily thing for quite a while here in the OT, but it has been gone for quite a while.
Really? How did I ever miss that? o.O


 
   
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No idea, it got so bad that Legoburner literally banned the word "kitchen" from appearing in a thread title. Go ahead, go create a new thread with Kitchen in the title, see what happens.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
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 hotsauceman1 wrote:
All I'm saying is this thread is going to no end well.


Actually most religion and politics threads end peacefully. They may start with "In B4 lock (huh huh are'nt I clever)" but continue with valid well intended discussions.



On Obama, I am not a fan but he has a right indeed you could say a duty to speak about race violence. Everything Obama says though is linked to who he is, and it wont be seen on its own merit but as part of his legacy and how that is assessed so far,

Its not unfair to say he won his '08 election on the back of his ethnicity and the hope/change that brought to US politics. He won again in '12 on his own merits, or more precisely the total lack of merit of the opposition. Since that time he has become a 'useless' president, however when you scratch the surface it is because he cant get any legislation through.

You have to filter all he says and does through the above. Obama's race relations comments are well meaning, and overall he is positive in this regards. However the USA is a deeply racially divided country, and that won't change in a hurry as the power structures are too entrenched, particularly in the commercial sector.

One advantage you do have over there is that the race division doesn't have any notable separatist leanings beyond a few no-hope fringe nuts.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

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 Ouze wrote:
No idea, it got so bad that Legoburner literally banned the word "kitchen" from appearing in a thread title. Go ahead, go create a new thread with Kitchen in the title, see what happens.


Wait, what? Have I missed something?

What's wrong with 'kitchen'?

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 Ashiraya wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
No idea, it got so bad that Legoburner literally banned the word "kitchen" from appearing in a thread title. Go ahead, go create a new thread with Kitchen in the title, see what happens.


Wait, what? Have I missed something?

What's wrong with 'kitchen'?


All the post bots selling kitchen thingamabobs.

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Another Obama fact:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/24/barack-obama-executive-orders-immigration_n_6213800.html

Is now a myth:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2014/12/16/obama-presidential-memoranda-executive-orders/20191805/
Obama issues 'executive orders by another name'

By issuing his directives as "memoranda" rather than executive orders, Obama has downplayed the extent of his executive actions.

WASHINGTON — President Obama has issued a form of executive action known as the presidential memorandum more often than any other president in history — using it to take unilateral action even as he has signed fewer executive orders.

When these two forms of directives are taken together, Obama is on track to take more high-level executive actions than any president since Harry Truman battled the "Do Nothing Congress" almost seven decades ago, according to a USA TODAY review of presidential documents.

Obama has issued executive orders to give federal employees the day after Christmas off, to impose economic sanctions and to determine how national secrets are classified. He's used presidential memoranda to make policy on gun control, immigration and labor regulations. Tuesday, he used a memorandum to declare Bristol Bay, Alaska, off-limits to oil and gas exploration.

Like executive orders, presidential memoranda don't require action by Congress. They have the same force of law as executive orders and often have consequences just as far-reaching. And some of the most significant actions of the Obama presidency have come not by executive order but by presidential memoranda.

Obama has made prolific use of memoranda despite his own claims that he's used his executive power less than other presidents. "The truth is, even with all the actions I've taken this year, I'm issuing executive orders at the lowest rate in more than 100 years," Obama said in a speech in Austin last July. "So it's not clear how it is that Republicans didn't seem to mind when President Bush took more executive actions than I did."

Obama has issued 195 executive orders as of Tuesday. Published alongside them in the Federal Register are 198 presidential memoranda — all of which carry the same legal force as executive orders.



He's already signed 33% more presidential memoranda in less than six years than Bush did in eight. He's also issued 45% more than the last Democratic president, Bill Clinton, who assertively used memoranda to signal what kinds of regulations he wanted federal agencies to adopt.

Obama is not the first president to use memoranda to accomplish policy aims. But at this point in his presidency, he's the first to use them more often than executive orders.

"There's been a lot of discussion about executive orders in his presidency, and of course by sheer numbers he's had fewer than other presidents. So the White House and its defenders can say, 'He can't be abusing his executive authority; he's hardly using any orders," said Andrew Rudalevige, a presidency scholar at Bowdoin College. "But if you look at these other vehicles, he has been aggressive in his use of executive power."

So even as he's quietly used memoranda to signal policy changes to federal agencies, Obama and his allies have claimed he's been more restrained in his use of that power.

In a Senate floor speech in July, Majority Leader Harry Reid said, "While Republicans accuse President Obama of executive overreach, they neglect the fact that he has issued far fewer executive orders than any two-term president in the last 50 years."

The White House would not comment on how it uses memoranda and executive orders but has previously said Obama's executive actions "advance an agenda that expands opportunity and rewards hard work and responsibility."

"There is no question that this president has been judicious in his use of executive action, executive orders, and I think those numbers thus far have come in below what President George W. Bush and President Bill Clinton did," said Jay Carney, then the White House press secretary, in February.

Carney, while critical of Bush's executive actions, also said it wasn't the number of executive actions that was important but rather "the quality and the type."

"It is funny to hear Republicans get upset about the suggestion that the president might use legally available authorities to advance an agenda that expands opportunity and rewards hard work and responsibility, when obviously they supported a president who used executive authorities quite widely," he said.

While executive orders have become a kind of Washington shorthand for unilateral presidential action, presidential memoranda have gone largely unexamined. And yet memoranda are often as significant to everyday Americans than executive orders. For example:

• In his State of the Union Address in January, Obama proposed a new retirement savings account for low-income workers called a MyRA. The next week, he issued a presidential memorandum to the Treasury Department instructing it to develop a pilot program.

• In April, Obama directed the Department of Labor to collect salary data from federal contractors and subcontractors to monitor whether they're paying women and minorities fairly.

• In June, Obama told the Department of Education to allow certain borrowers to cap their student loan payments at 10% of income.

They can also be controversial.



AVOIDING 'IMPERIAL OVERREACH'

Obama issued three presidential memoranda after the Sandy Hook school shooting two years ago. They ordered federal law enforcement agencies to trace any firearm that's part of a federal investigation, expanded the data available to the national background check system, and instructed federal agencies to conduct research into the causes and possible solutions to gun violence.

Two more recent memos directed the administration to coordinate an overhaul of the nation's immigration system — a move that congressional Republicans say exceeded his authority. Of the dozens of steps Obama announced as part of his immigration plan last month, none was accomplished by executive order.

Executive orders are numbered — the most recent, Executive Order 13683, modified three previous executive orders. Memoranda are not numbered, not indexed and, until recently, difficult to quantify.

Kenneth Lowande, a political science doctoral student at the University of Virginia, counted up memoranda published in the Code of Federal Regulations since 1945. In an article published in the December issue of Presidential Studies Quarterly, he found that memoranda appear to be replacing executive orders.

Indeed, many of Obama's memoranda do the kinds of things previous presidents did by executive order.

• In 1970, President Nixon issued an executive order on unneeded federal properties. Forty years later, Obama issued a similar policy by memorandum.

• President George W. Bush established the Bob Hope American Patriot Award by executive order in 2003. Obama created the Richard C. Holbrooke Award for Diplomacy by memorandum in 2012.

• President Bush issued Executive Order 13392 in 2005, directing agencies to report on their compliance with the Freedom of Information Act. On his week in office, Obama directed the attorney general to revisit those reports — but did so in a memorandum.

"If you look at some of the titles of memoranda recently, they do look like and mirror executive orders," Lowande said.

The difference may be one of political messaging, he said. An "executive order," he said, "immediately evokes potentially damaging questions of 'imperial overreach.'" Memorandum sounds less threatening.

Though they're just getting attention from some presidential scholars, White House insiders have known about the power of memoranda for some time. In a footnote to her 1999 article in the Harvard Law Review, former Clinton associate White House counsel Elena Kagan — now an Obama appointee to the U.S. Supreme Court — said scholars focused too much on executive orders rather than presidential memoranda.

Kagan said Clinton considered memoranda "a central part of his governing strategy," using them to spur agencies to write regulations restricting tobacco advertising to children, allowing unemployment insurance for paid family leave and requiring agencies to collect racial profiling data.

"The memoranda became, ever increasingly over the course of eight years, Clinton's primary means, self-consciously undertaken, both of setting an administrative agenda that reflected and advanced his policy and political preferences and of ensuring the execution of this program," Kagan wrote.

WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE?

Presidential scholar Phillip Cooper calls presidential memoranda "executive orders by another name, and yet unique."

The law does not define the difference between an executive order and a memorandum, but it does say that the president should publish in the Federal Register executive orders and other documents that "have general applicability and legal effect."

"Something that's in a presidential memorandum in one administration might be captured in an executive order in another," said Jim Hemphill, the special assistant to the director for the government's legal notice publication. "There's no guidance that says, 'Mr. President, here's what needs to be in an executive order.' "

There are subtle differences. Executive orders are numbered; memoranda are not. Memoranda are always published in the Federal Register after proclamations and executive orders. And under Executive Order 11030, signed by President Kennedy in 1962, an executive order must contain a "citation of authority," saying what law it's based on. Memoranda have no such requirement.

Obama, like other presidents, has used memoranda for more routine operations of the executive branch, delegating certain mundane tasks to subordinates. About half of the memoranda published on the White House website are deemed so inconsequential that they're not counted as memoranda in the Federal Register.

Sometimes, there are subtle differences. President Eisenhower signed Executive Order 10789 in 1958 giving emergency contracting authority to the Department of Defense and other Cabinet departments. President Bush added other departments in 2001 and 2003, but he and Obama both used memoranda to give temporary authority to the U.S. Agency for International Development to respond to crises in Iraq and western Africa.

When the president determines the order of succession in a Cabinet-level department — that is, who would take over in the case of the death or resignation of the secretary — he does so by executive order. For other agencies, he uses a memorandum.

Both executive orders and memoranda can vary in importance. One executive order this year changed the name of the National Security Staff to the National Security Council Staff. Both instruments have been used to delegate routine tasks to other federal officials.

'THE FUNCTIONAL EQUIVALENT'

Whatever they're called, those executive actions are binding on future administrations unless explicitly revoked by a future president, according to legal opinion from the Justice Department.

The Office of Legal Counsel — which is responsible for advising the president on executive orders and memoranda — says there's no difference between the two. "It has been our consistent view that it is the substance of a presidential determination or directive that is controlling and not whether the document is styled in a particular manner," said a 2000 memo from Acting Assistant Attorney General Randolph Moss to the Clinton White House. He cited a 1945 opinion that said a letter from President Franklin Roosevelt carried the same weight as an executive order.

The Office of Legal Counsel signs off on the legality of executive orders and memoranda. During the first year of Obama's presidency, the Office of Legal Counsel asked Congress for a 14.5% budget increase, justifying its request in part by noting "the large number of executive orders and presidential memoranda that has been issued."

Other classifications of presidential orders carry similar weight. Obama has issued at least 28 presidential policy directives in the area of national security. In a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit last year, a federal court ruled that these, too, are "the functional equivalent of an executive order."

Even the White House sometimes gets tripped up on the distinction. Explaining Obama's memoranda on immigration last month, Press Secretary Josh Earnest said the president would happily "tear up his own executive order" if Congress passes an immigration bill.

Obama had issued no such executive order. Earnest later corrected himself. "I must have misspoke. I meant executive actions. So I apologize," he said.









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I didn't read all that 'cause I'm at work (that's the excuse I'm going with) care to summarize?

I don't think the President makes or breaks this kind of stuff. As much as the left leaning lemmings and the right leaning lemmings like to fly off the cliff when the Prez that leans to the other side makes a comment about something controversial, I don't think that rioters are taking to the streets or staying home based on what he says.

He has a right to his opinion. It's in the constitution. It might hurt him or his party politically. It might be mind blowingly stupid, but it's still just words. If he takes action, that is a different story.

As I said before, Law Enforcement accountability IS a legitamate issue and has been for years. (google Ruby Ridge) The fact that more of these incidents happen to people of color and the president is also a person of color is only relevant if you are an idiot and/or a Republican.


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 WellSpokenMan wrote:

He has a right to his opinion. It's in the constitution. It might hurt him or his party politically. It might be mind blowingly stupid, but it's still just words. If he takes action, that is a different story.

As I said before, Law Enforcement accountability IS a legitamate issue and has been for years. (google Ruby Ridge) The fact that more of these incidents happen to people of color and the president is also a person of color is only relevant if you are an idiot and/or a Republican.




Basically... the Pres. can issue Executive Orders, or he can issue Presidential Memoranda, both carry the same weight in a legal sense.

While people are bitching and moaning about how many executive orders he's used (really not that many compared to other presidents), he has issued more Memoranda than any president previously.


In either case, using an EO, or a Memo is taking action to "enforce" his opinion. (which is basically your first point there)

As to the second line of yours, I do agree that LEO accountability and oversight is needing reform and should be looked at more heavily (perhaps it is being looked at, but no action being taken... etc)
   
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 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
 WellSpokenMan wrote:

He has a right to his opinion. It's in the constitution. It might hurt him or his party politically. It might be mind blowingly stupid, but it's still just words. If he takes action, that is a different story.

As I said before, Law Enforcement accountability IS a legitamate issue and has been for years. (google Ruby Ridge) The fact that more of these incidents happen to people of color and the president is also a person of color is only relevant if you are an idiot and/or a Republican.




Basically... the Pres. can issue Executive Orders, or he can issue Presidential Memoranda, both carry the same weight in a legal sense.

While people are bitching and moaning about how many executive orders he's used (really not that many compared to other presidents), he has issued more Memoranda than any president previously.


In either case, using an EO, or a Memo is taking action to "enforce" his opinion. (which is basically your first point there)

As to the second line of yours, I do agree that LEO accountability and oversight is needing reform and should be looked at more heavily (perhaps it is being looked at, but no action being taken... etc)


What he says to cameras is not automatically memoranda. Judging him on his Executive Orders or Executive Memoranda is legitimate and neccessary. Judging sound clips is not.

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 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

Basically... the Pres. can issue Executive Orders, or he can issue Presidential Memoranda, both carry the same weight in a legal sense.


That's not really true, no matter how much the noise machine wants it to be. Executive Orders have been historically given legal weight, Presidential Memoranda have not. The number is also misleading as it includes all Memoranda, not just Hortatory Memoranda.

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I have to confess, "presidential memoranda" is a creature new to me, I've never really heard the phrase before and certainly didn't know they held the legal weight of an executive order.

 dogma wrote:
Executive Orders have been historically given legal weight, Presidential Memoranda have not. The number is also misleading as it includes all Memoranda, not just Hortatory Memoranda.


If you can expand on this I'm all ears. Can a memoranda be overturned by Congress in the way an EO can?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/17 19:48:58


 lord_blackfang wrote:
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Pres. Memos? Are those like signing statements?

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I think Obama has been "less than cautious" in regards to what he says about race related issues.



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 Ouze wrote:

If you can expand on this I'm all ears. Can a memoranda be overturned by Congress in the way an EO can?


Yes. Any Executive Action can be overturned by Congress, even the ones Congress empowers the Executive to take.

However, that does not mean all Executive Actions are the same. The Court, Congress, and the Executive have historically treated Executive Orders with legal weight, whereas the same is not true of Memoranda. I don't know how to better explain that, at least without writing an essay, it just hasn't happened.

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MWHistorian wrote:I think Obama has been "less than cautious" in regards to what he says about race related issues.


Most minorities I have heard from would say the opposite as well as complaining about him not saying enough. There is a disconnect between groups, which is part of the problem. There was an episode of some show where there was a panel of white people that said we talk to much about race and in another room a panel of black people were saying that we didn't talk enough about it.

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 Ahtman wrote:
MWHistorian wrote:I think Obama has been "less than cautious" in regards to what he says about race related issues.


Most minorities I have heard from would say the opposite as well as complaining about him not saying enough. There is a disconnect between groups, which is part of the problem. There was an episode of some show where there was a panel of white people that said we talk to much about race and in another room a panel of black people were saying that we didn't talk enough about it.


That sound hilarious.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

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 Desubot wrote:
 Ahtman wrote:
MWHistorian wrote:I think Obama has been "less than cautious" in regards to what he says about race related issues.


Most minorities I have heard from would say the opposite as well as complaining about him not saying enough. There is a disconnect between groups, which is part of the problem. There was an episode of some show where there was a panel of white people that said we talk to much about race and in another room a panel of black people were saying that we didn't talk enough about it.


That sound hilarious.

I think race issues need to be talked about, but it needs to be done in a way that brings everyone together, not divides them.



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 Ahtman wrote:
MWHistorian wrote:I think Obama has been "less than cautious" in regards to what he says about race related issues.


Most minorities I have heard from would say the opposite as well as complaining about him not saying enough. There is a disconnect between groups, which is part of the problem. There was an episode of some show where there was a panel of white people that said we talk to much about race and in another room a panel of black people were saying that we didn't talk enough about it.


There is talking about it, and there is talking about it intelligently.

President Obama is the President of all Americans. Though the only time I've ever heard him speak on racial issues is when it came to black Americans, and then only to voice opinions before facts were known. Now I'm not saying he's all bad on the topic. I was pleased when he called for calm before the Ferguson grand trial verdict was announced, and all that. It would be nice though that if he was going to step in on the topic, he did it a bit more carefully.

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If you have been the victim of descrimination for x, you tend to see it everywhere. Absent some other explanation you wonder if that x is why something happend or why something didn't go your way. It's very frustrating. On the other hand, if you don't actively descriminate for x, you think that people making that assumption is ridiculous. This all feeds into more misunderstanings and stereotypes.

Numbers don't lie, and the numbers indicate there is a problem here.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/17 21:01:57


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 dogma wrote:
 Ouze wrote:

If you can expand on this I'm all ears. Can a memoranda be overturned by Congress in the way an EO can?


Yes. Any Executive Action can be overturned by Congress, even the ones Congress empowers the Executive to take.

However, that does not mean all Executive Actions are the same. The Court, Congress, and the Executive have historically treated Executive Orders with legal weight, whereas the same is not true of Memoranda. I don't know how to better explain that, at least without writing an essay, it just hasn't happened.

Not quite... for all practical purposes, they're legal actions employed by the Presidential Office.

There's actually 3 types.
A presidential determination (or finding) is essentially a policy definition. The best example given is that the President may have to clarify the status of a nation (ie, Iran) before Congress can impose sanctions on them.

A memorandum of disapproval appears to be pretty much the same as a signing statement which is issued when some bills are signed into law, except they are released when a bill is vetoed.

The third and final type is the hortatory memorandum, and that is where Obama has really been busy. This is an order which is issued as a broad policy statement, but unlike a Presidential Proclamation is directed to executive agencies.

So... legally, they're basically same thing, but used in different manner.

So when you add up all of of these hortatory memoranda and the actual executive orders, Prez Obama goes from issuing the fewest executive orders in the last century to being the guy who issued the most since Carter.

Yes, Congress can "overturn" each of them by passing laws... but, with the current stalement, Congress haven't been able to.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/17 21:02:42


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 djones520 wrote:
There is talking about it, and there is talking about it intelligently.


I imagine both sides say that about the other.

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 Ahtman wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
There is talking about it, and there is talking about it intelligently.


I imagine both sides say that about the other.



Not universally though, no. IIRC, Morgan Freeman has repeatedly said, in the public sphere that he's rather tired of "race" discussions. Perhaps he is only referencing the whining aspect, and would in fact, like to see real dialogue between "leading" members of society, but as it stands, this is what I recall of him talking about race.
   
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 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
IIRC, Morgan Freeman has repeatedly said


One man doesn't get to be the voice of any trend, and trotting out outliers doesn't change a trend, it just reinforces something people already know i.e. there are outliers.

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 whembly wrote:

Not quite... for all practical purposes, they're legal actions employed by the Presidential Office.


Yes, the President of the US employs many Executive Tools which Congress and the Courts empower him to. And no, they are not the same "..for all practical purposes...". Contending otherwise is mere laziness.

 whembly wrote:

There's actually 3 types.


Of Memoranda? Yes, I am aware.

 whembly wrote:

So... legally, they're basically same thing, but used in different manner.


Legally they are very different things, and they are used in a different manner Administratively.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/17 22:22:01


Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
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 Ahtman wrote:
 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
IIRC, Morgan Freeman has repeatedly said


One man doesn't get to be the voice of any trend, and trotting out outliers doesn't change a trend, it just reinforces something people already know i.e. there are outliers.



While true, I think that more people have a greater respect for him than, say.... Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton.
   
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 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
While true, I think that more people have a greater respect for him than, say.... Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton.


Which isn't exactly a high bar to hurdle. Most of the black people (let alone any other ethnicity) I have talked to aren't fans of the latter two either, but if there is a camera nearby you can bet one of the two will be there. I suppose it shows how little support one actually has to have to get political clout.

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
 
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