Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

NauticalKendall wrote:
The Russ seems like a simple, strong, tank that gets the job done, and done well.

When compared to the Hammerhead, Fire Prism, and whatever it is Necrons use can we really assume that it's even meant to be on par?

Hammerheads for the large part are off on the Eastern fringe, Eldar like to pick and choose their battles as they see fit. I'm sure Fire Prisms aren't that common of an enemy for the Russ crews. Same with Necrons, they pop up every once in awhile and thats that.

The Russ was designed for general combat, and it does it's job well. To compare its experiences against rarer tanks in the fluff would just be unfair.

From a rules perspective only, the standard Leman Russ is an infantry support weapon rather than a tank killer. Its S8 AP3 isn't powerful enough to reliably kill tanks (only able to immobilise if it penetrates) though it will obliterate heavy infantry unless they have cover.

Though the point people were making by comparing it to Hammerheads or Fire Prisms is that these are the standard tanks (in the Hammerheads case, at least, don't know about the Fire Prism) of their respective armies. So whilst they may not be as common on a galaxy wide scale they are what the Leman Russ will come up against in any confrontation with that respective species. So you're comparing the baseline tank of both armies.

The russ has Anti-Tank shells for its battle-cannon to. It mentions them in Imperial Armour Volume 1 (Second Edition). Specifically the " Leman Russ Mk12 G4 Anti-Tank Round".

 EmpNortonII wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:


Its also implied in the Taros Campaign books that a Manta wouldnt neccessarily win in a confrontation with an imperial titan. As Imperial Armor Vol 3 (2nd edition) states in the Tigersharks entry

Due to its vital role as a transport craft for the Tau's highly mobile Hunter Cadres, Tau commanders were reluctant to risk their Mantas in direct confrontation with the Imperium's Titans. Even if the Mantas were able to successfully destroy their gargantuan prey, they would likely be so damaged after the encounter that they would be unable to continue their role as transports, leaving Tau ground forces unable to redeploy in the face of an enemy's continued advance.

Also the Manta is a liability at times in general when confronting large targets like a titan . Im unsure of if the lore supports this, but on the tabletop when targeting the manta it has this rule attatched to it:

AA Fire - Due to its size, any enemy units that target the manta do not need to make Snap Shots when it is zooming and roll To Hit using their normal BS score even if they do not possess the Skyfire special rule.

... the other side to the rules is that, while it is vulnerable to a lot of fire, it's still a flier, and thus immune in game to blasts, large blasts, and torrents- you know, most Imperial titan weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
The Imperium actually does innovate. It's just that every innovation has to be carefully tested to ensure that it works properly and the AdMech likes to be very thorough when it comes to their testing. Otherwise, you may end up with disastrous results.

In six thousand years, they couldn't figure out how to solder some anti-aircraft missiles and a radar onto a Rhino.

It's not as simple as that. Imperial technology is not well understood by it's users so any modifications they make could seriously mess with the machine. Soldering a guidance system to a Rhino could've overtaxed it's power systems causing the thing to explode violently or maybe the machine spirit would've been angered making the missiles blow up friendly targets. Every modification to their crap has to be meticulously tested by the AdMech to make sure it'll perform it's function reliably enough.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:


Its also implied in the Taros Campaign books that a Manta wouldnt neccessarily win in a confrontation with an imperial titan. As Imperial Armor Vol 3 (2nd edition) states in the Tigersharks entry

Due to its vital role as a transport craft for the Tau's highly mobile Hunter Cadres, Tau commanders were reluctant to risk their Mantas in direct confrontation with the Imperium's Titans. Even if the Mantas were able to successfully destroy their gargantuan prey, they would likely be so damaged after the encounter that they would be unable to continue their role as transports, leaving Tau ground forces unable to redeploy in the face of an enemy's continued advance.

Also the Manta is a liability at times in general when confronting large targets like a titan . Im unsure of if the lore supports this, but on the tabletop when targeting the manta it has this rule attatched to it:

AA Fire - Due to its size, any enemy units that target the manta do not need to make Snap Shots when it is zooming and roll To Hit using their normal BS score even if they do not possess the Skyfire special rule.

... the other side to the rules is that, while it is vulnerable to a lot of fire, it's still a flier, and thus immune in game to blasts, large blasts, and torrents- you know, most Imperial titan weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
The Imperium actually does innovate. It's just that every innovation has to be carefully tested to ensure that it works properly and the AdMech likes to be very thorough when it comes to their testing. Otherwise, you may end up with disastrous results.

In six thousand years, they couldn't figure out how to solder some anti-aircraft missiles and a radar onto a Rhino.

It's not as simple as that. Imperial technology is not well understood by it's users so any modifications they make could seriously mess with the machine. Soldering a guidance system to a Rhino could've overtaxed it's power systems causing the thing to explode violently or maybe the machine spirit would've been angered making the missiles blow up friendly targets. Every modification to their crap has to be meticulously tested by the AdMech to make sure it'll perform it's function reliably enough.

For the record, they never did figure out how to do it. Someone dug up an STC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
Yeah I have pointed out that rule a few times..but it always defaults to fluff vs. rules vs. realisim.

thats why the tigershark is so scary...Titans hate fliers..lol

we discovered this in a mega battle..as my pait of A-X Tigersharks bagged 3 warhounds... the anti flyer rule boned them.

A-yup! Kill any AA the first round they enter, and then go to town. Watch your opponent cry when you hit his Vendettas with D-strength weapons.

Id like to see how that "kill any AA" works on the Praetor Armored Launcher. Its a super-heavy AA missile launcher that fires 2 Str 8, Ap 3 missles with Twin-Linked, Sky Fire and Interceptor rules. In addition where the Tigershark seems to be 660 points, the Praetor Armored Launcher is only 250 points which makes it about the cost of a land raider.

Sigh..yes we can play that game...suicide crisis suits with melta weapons..in single model groups..deep striking blowing up Praetor..or drawing fire...blah blah..the never ending one upmanship from a endless toybox..in a vacuum...that way leads to madness..lol

The point is to emphasize that you may not be able to destroy the enemy AA as it may survive your attacks and or be out of reach, at which point it is free to retaliate and or disrupt your flyer.

By the rules... the heavy railgun outranges the Praetor 108" to 72." Surviving the attacks isn't likely.

Besides, who the crap brings heavy support anti-air? It only gets two stinking shots. It's not like it could handle 'Cron air force.

The mechanicus is also diligent in testing any STCs they recover. One example is the Centurion War-Armor. There are far more powerful warsuits than the Centurion it mentions, however after mechanicus testing, they realized these were simply too dangerous and destructive (which is saying something for the imperium) to be implemented and left them buried.

So in that 6000 years it took to arrive to develop said AA platform, they may have came across numerous, perhaps better variants, but chose the current one because it was the least tainted, dangerous or horrifically destructive at the current time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:


Its also implied in the Taros Campaign books that a Manta wouldnt neccessarily win in a confrontation with an imperial titan. As Imperial Armor Vol 3 (2nd edition) states in the Tigersharks entry

Due to its vital role as a transport craft for the Tau's highly mobile Hunter Cadres, Tau commanders were reluctant to risk their Mantas in direct confrontation with the Imperium's Titans. Even if the Mantas were able to successfully destroy their gargantuan prey, they would likely be so damaged after the encounter that they would be unable to continue their role as transports, leaving Tau ground forces unable to redeploy in the face of an enemy's continued advance.

Also the Manta is a liability at times in general when confronting large targets like a titan . Im unsure of if the lore supports this, but on the tabletop when targeting the manta it has this rule attatched to it:

AA Fire - Due to its size, any enemy units that target the manta do not need to make Snap Shots when it is zooming and roll To Hit using their normal BS score even if they do not possess the Skyfire special rule.

... the other side to the rules is that, while it is vulnerable to a lot of fire, it's still a flier, and thus immune in game to blasts, large blasts, and torrents- you know, most Imperial titan weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
The Imperium actually does innovate. It's just that every innovation has to be carefully tested to ensure that it works properly and the AdMech likes to be very thorough when it comes to their testing. Otherwise, you may end up with disastrous results.

In six thousand years, they couldn't figure out how to solder some anti-aircraft missiles and a radar onto a Rhino.

It's not as simple as that. Imperial technology is not well understood by it's users so any modifications they make could seriously mess with the machine. Soldering a guidance system to a Rhino could've overtaxed it's power systems causing the thing to explode violently or maybe the machine spirit would've been angered making the missiles blow up friendly targets. Every modification to their crap has to be meticulously tested by the AdMech to make sure it'll perform it's function reliably enough.

For the record, they never did figure out how to do it. Someone dug up an STC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
Yeah I have pointed out that rule a few times..but it always defaults to fluff vs. rules vs. realisim.

thats why the tigershark is so scary...Titans hate fliers..lol

we discovered this in a mega battle..as my pait of A-X Tigersharks bagged 3 warhounds... the anti flyer rule boned them.

A-yup! Kill any AA the first round they enter, and then go to town. Watch your opponent cry when you hit his Vendettas with D-strength weapons.

Id like to see how that "kill any AA" works on the Praetor Armored Launcher. Its a super-heavy AA missile launcher that fires 2 Str 8, Ap 3 missles with Twin-Linked, Sky Fire and Interceptor rules. In addition where the Tigershark seems to be 660 points, the Praetor Armored Launcher is only 250 points which makes it about the cost of a land raider.

Sigh..yes we can play that game...suicide crisis suits with melta weapons..in single model groups..deep striking blowing up Praetor..or drawing fire...blah blah..the never ending one upmanship from a endless toybox..in a vacuum...that way leads to madness..lol

The point is to emphasize that you may not be able to destroy the enemy AA as it may survive your attacks and or be out of reach, at which point it is free to retaliate and or disrupt your flyer.

By the rules... the heavy railgun outranges the Praetor 108" to 72." Surviving the attacks isn't likely.

Besides, who the crap brings heavy support anti-air? It only gets two stinking shots. It's not like it could handle 'Cron air force.

On its own maybe not. But ideally it will be shooting at Super-Heavy flyers, which cannot jink if I recall. Also for the cost of a super-heavy flyer like the Ork Bommer, The Tiger-Shark or anything else, you can bring more than one launcher, meaning they would out-number the target they would be engaging.

The Imperial Answer wrote:
The mechanicus is also diligent in testing any STCs they recover. One example is the Centurion War-Armor. There are far more powerful warsuits than the Centurion it mentions, however after mechanicus testing, they realized these were simply too dangerous and destructive (which is saying something for the imperium) to be implemented and left them buried.

So in that 6000 years it took to arrive to develop said AA platform, they may have came across numerous, perhaps better variants, but chose the current one because it was the least tainted, dangerous or horrifically destructive at the current time.

Which speaks volumes about their lack of innovation.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
The mechanicus is also diligent in testing any STCs they recover. One example is the Centurion War-Armor. There are far more powerful warsuits than the Centurion it mentions, however after mechanicus testing, they realized these were simply too dangerous and destructive (which is saying something for the imperium) to be implemented and left them buried.

So in that 6000 years it took to arrive to develop said AA platform, they may have came across numerous, perhaps better variants, but chose the current one because it was the least tainted, dangerous or horrifically destructive at the current time.

Which speaks volumes about their lack of innovation.

I think the priority of the Machine Cult is to re-discover lost technology. Innovation is probably a secondary concern. Also the Mechanicus understands how dangerous technology can be. The wrong kind of innovation can lead to dire consequences, the Men of Iron, and the creations of Hereteks and Warpsmith's being some of the most extreme examples.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

On its own maybe not. But ideally it will be shooting at Super-Heavy flyers, which cannot jink if I recall. Also for the cost of a super-heavy flyer like the Ork Bommer, The Tiger-Shark or anything else, you can bring more than one launcher, meaning they would out-number the target they would be engaging.

We could quibble about rules and stuff all day, but in the end, it all comes down to one thing.

In order to face one of these on the tabletop, you have to meet someone who asked themselves, "Do I want to spend my hard-earned money and time assembling and painting a new Titan, a Baneblade... or do I want an anti-aircraft platform?" and answers with the third, over the first two. Titans and giant tanks look cool.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
The mechanicus is also diligent in testing any STCs they recover. One example is the Centurion War-Armor. There are far more powerful warsuits than the Centurion it mentions, however after mechanicus testing, they realized these were simply too dangerous and destructive (which is saying something for the imperium) to be implemented and left them buried.

So in that 6000 years it took to arrive to develop said AA platform, they may have came across numerous, perhaps better variants, but chose the current one because it was the least tainted, dangerous or horrifically destructive at the current time.

Which speaks volumes about their lack of innovation.

I think the priority of the Machine Cult is to re-discover lost technology. Innovation is probably a secondary concern. Also the Mechanicus understands how dangerous technology can be. The wrong kind of innovation can lead to dire consequences, the Men of Iron, and the creations of Hereteks and Warpsmith's being some of the most extreme examples.

It's just taking already-existing parts and assembling them in a new way.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

On its own maybe not. But ideally it will be shooting at Super-Heavy flyers, which cannot jink if I recall. Also for the cost of a super-heavy flyer like the Ork Bommer, The Tiger-Shark or anything else, you can bring more than one launcher, meaning they would out-number the target they would be engaging.

We could quibble about rules and stuff all day, but in the end, it all comes down to one thing.

In order to face one of these on the tabletop, you have to meet someone who asked themselves, "Do I want to spend my hard-earned money and time assembling and painting a new Titan, a Baneblade... or do I want an anti-aircraft platform?" and answers with the third, over the first two. Titans and giant tanks look cool.

You can scratch build one at a cost cheaper than buying it out-right. All they are is a large missile launcher on a large tank chassis. Plenty of cheap options for conversions there. Would actually be neat to see all the different ways to represent a Praetor.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
The mechanicus is also diligent in testing any STCs they recover. One example is the Centurion War-Armor. There are far more powerful warsuits than the Centurion it mentions, however after mechanicus testing, they realized these were simply too dangerous and destructive (which is saying something for the imperium) to be implemented and left them buried.

So in that 6000 years it took to arrive to develop said AA platform, they may have came across numerous, perhaps better variants, but chose the current one because it was the least tainted, dangerous or horrifically destructive at the current time.

Which speaks volumes about their lack of innovation.

I think the priority of the Machine Cult is to re-discover lost technology. Innovation is probably a secondary concern. Also the Mechanicus understands how dangerous technology can be. The wrong kind of innovation can lead to dire consequences, the Men of Iron, and the creations of Hereteks and Warpsmith's being some of the most extreme examples.

It's just taking already-existing parts and assembling them in a new way.

Which can still lead to disaster if it is assembled incorrectly or in a way that displeases the Machine god or the technologies sentience or machine-spirit.

This Thread is still stuck in silly " but my guys can beat your guys" nonsense?

Fact is:

1) 40k happens in a Galaxy, with Humans and Orks everywhere, some Eldar cruising around, an unknown number of worlds which may turn out to be tomb worlds of the Necrons, Tyranids showing up for dinner here and there, plus chaos and its minions not caring for limits where to go.
Additionally the Humans have to deal with their own inner problems, like secessionists, so basically the Opponent a Leman Russ would drive into is most likely Humans or Orks. Blue skinned upstarts from the east are not relevant at all.
2) its a GW design. It is not realistic, it got a rather comic or toy style and the fluff and rules may change on a whim.
3) Mankinds vehicles tend to be built from a template ( chassis ) plus more turrets and more guns...
4) GW offered Tank crew as Citadel Miniatures.
5) the Leman Russ is a "work horse". Its your "everyday ride", not the car you may wish to own , maybe.

The Leman Russ offers seval different armaments. Isn't hard to keep going and some repairs are done by its crew. Further assistance is done by the Ad Mech ( Engineseers ). Its possible to survive a hit ( crew may escape ) and the common reason a Tank isn't on active duty is not : has xploded and is all over the place now... Recovery of armor is possible and FW showed vehicles for exactly that. Front armor is in-game at the max value, side armor isn't bad either.
The typical USR of the IG applies too: brings a lot of friends to the field of battle.

So we have a lot of variants to deal with different targets, usually the LR isn't alone, Humans and Orks ( looted ) use it, the Tank is resilient enough against many foes, the crew may escape death, its never a "black boxed" system and finally GW isn't good at balancing.

The chance of survival of Joe average guardsman based on rules is: irrelevant, cause you get vehicles with crew included. I doubt many editions of 40k didn't take the vehicle and the crew out of play. ( IIRC there was one where the crew could escape death ). But basically if you let the LR crew manage to surivive, you have to offer the same to every vehicle crew in the game that isn't hardwired into the chassis.
The chance of survival of Joe average guardsman based on the Background is: not bad, the armor of the Tank should do its job against the majority of opponents he may have to fight, lots of guns to deal out damage before you receive it, good target saturation because IG, he could repair it to move on, the departemento munitorum isn't known to let him run out of fuel or ammo or rations, and there are reported cases of giving up a disabled Tank without beeing shot by a comissar.

The chance of survival of joe average guardsmen based on GW's ( and BL , FW ) usual stories: depends if he is the protagonist or the "red shirt". In a Leman Russ or not is irrelevant in this case.


10 millenia of service. And the Leman Russ is going to add another 10.

Plus, it will drive me closer so I can hit them with my sword.

 1hadhq wrote:
This Thread is still stuck in silly " but my guys can beat your guys" nonsense?

Fact is:

1) 40k happens in a Galaxy, with Humans and Orks everywhere, some Eldar cruising around, an unknown number of worlds which may turn out to be tomb worlds of the Necrons, Tyranids showing up for dinner here and there, plus chaos and its minions not caring for limits where to go.
Additionally the Humans have to deal with their own inner problems, like secessionists, so basically the Opponent a Leman Russ would drive into is most likely Humans or Orks. Blue skinned upstarts from the east are not relevant at all.
2) its a GW design. It is not realistic, it got a rather comic or toy style and the fluff and rules may change on a whim.
3) Mankinds vehicles tend to be built from a template ( chassis ) plus more turrets and more guns...
4) GW offered Tank crew as Citadel Miniatures.
5) the Leman Russ is a "work horse". Its your "everyday ride", not the car you may wish to own , maybe.

The Leman Russ offers seval different armaments. Isn't hard to keep going and some repairs are done by its crew. Further assistance is done by the Ad Mech ( Engineseers ). Its possible to survive a hit ( crew may escape ) and the common reason a Tank isn't on active duty is not : has xploded and is all over the place now... Recovery of armor is possible and FW showed vehicles for exactly that. Front armor is in-game at the max value, side armor isn't bad either.
The typical USR of the IG applies too: brings a lot of friends to the field of battle.

So we have a lot of variants to deal with different targets, usually the LR isn't alone, Humans and Orks ( looted ) use it, the Tank is resilient enough against many foes, the crew may escape death, its never a "black boxed" system and finally GW isn't good at balancing.

The chance of survival of Joe average guardsman based on rules is: irrelevant, cause you get vehicles with crew included. I doubt many editions of 40k didn't take the vehicle and the crew out of play. ( IIRC there was one where the crew could escape death ). But basically if you let the LR crew manage to surivive, you have to offer the same to every vehicle crew in the game that isn't hardwired into the chassis.
The chance of survival of Joe average guardsman based on the Background is: not bad, the armor of the Tank should do its job against the majority of opponents he may have to fight, lots of guns to deal out damage before you receive it, good target saturation because IG, he could repair it to move on, the departemento munitorum isn't known to let him run out of fuel or ammo or rations, and there are reported cases of giving up a disabled Tank without beeing shot by a comissar.

The chance of survival of joe average guardsmen based on GW's ( and BL , FW ) usual stories: depends if he is the protagonist or the "red shirt". In a Leman Russ or not is irrelevant in this case.


10 millenia of service. And the Leman Russ is going to add another 10.

Plus, it will drive me closer so I can hit them with my sword.

So with all of that in mind how tough is it?

As tough as it is written in the story in which it is presented.

The Imperial Answer wrote:
It seems like the Hammerhead was actually built to engage enemy armor threats from afar with as little risk to the tank itself as possible.

It seems like the Russ was made to be a mobile bunker as much as a tank to support grinding offensives.

Lemans are assault vehicles. They are moving bunkers to provide fire support to taker downa cariety of targets, and are built to take heavy punishment.
Think WWII assault shermans.

Hammerheads aren't. They are effectively attack helicopters. Different use. Different purpose.
You should compare a hammerhead to a vulture gunship, not a Leman Russ.

You should compare Lemans to other assault vehicles-landraiders, other land tanks, super heavies, and even Necron "armor" that serve a similar purpose of heavy assault and supporting infantry. In this capacity they shine quite well, given their cost of manufacture. They are exceedingly rugged, easily manufactured and supported logistically, and can be given to crews with limited skill sets.