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2014/12/06 17:29:31
Subject: 1850 Competitive - Jy2's Pentyrant Tyranids vs Eldar w/Tyrannic War Veterans (Completed)
This battle report is not for the squeamish and includes scenes of swearing, foot-stomping, fist-waving and cruelty to mini's. (However, no actual mini's were harmed in the writing of this report.) If you are looking for a report which shows great narrative, fluffy battles, the finer side of gaming and great comraderie, then LEAVE NOW! If you are looking for no-holds-barred, hardcore, stomp-your-opponent-to-the-mud action, then continue. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.
So there's been an influx of material/formations for Tyranids which, in my opinion, have just catapulted them from a middling army all the way up the stratosphere. Tyranids are no longer an afterthought of an army in competitive play. First with the release of the new Forgeworld Tyranid book and accompanying models, then with the release of a plethora of new models (that should have been included with the codex in the very first place!) and now with the release of the Shield of Baal supplement, Tyranids have just shot up the competitive ladder into top-tier territory. Yes, the newest supplement, the Shield of Baal, will be a meta-changing release as it has just injected another top-tier build to the tournament scene.
So why is this book so meta-changing? Because you can run both a normal detachment and the Shield of Baal Hive Fleet Leviathan detachment. What this does is it now allows you to take up to 5 flyrants in tournament play. This is possible for 2 reasons. Firstly, the normal detachment allows you to take 2 HQ's and the Leviathan detachment allows you to take 3 HQ's! Secondly, GW recently released a new troop choice called the Mucolid. This unit satisfies 1 troop slot....for only 15-pts!!! So in a normal + Leviathan detachment, you can fulfill the minimum 5 troop requirements to run this configuration for only a total of 75-pts!!! What the f*ck was GW thinking?!? Only 75-pts to be able to run 5 HQ's (in other words, 5 flyrants)?!?
My hypothesis is that a 5-flyrant list (which I shall call a Pentyrant Tyranid build) is over-powering to most of the armies out there. Tyranids were strong before, but they've always had trouble against the top tournament builds. Well, now the shoe is on the other foot. A pentyrant build is so strong that even other top, tournament armies will have trouble against it. Yes, pentyrant armies will be changing the meta once again. You better bring a lot of skyfire to your Take-All-Comer's tournament list, because if you don't, then you won't be able to handle such an army.
My opponent for this game is my friend and GT-winner, Grant aka "Grant Theft Auto" aka "GTA". He normally runs the seer council, but currently he is testing out a new Eldar army using the Forgeworld super-heavy, the Lynx. He is also trying a new build - he is bringing the Tyrannic War Veterans formation to help shore up a traditional weakness of Eldar, their anti-air. He's only had 2 games so far with his latest army. Both games were against Geoff "InControl" and his triple-flyrant/Swarmlord/Barbed Hierodule tournament Tyranid army. And Grant was able to win both of those games. So I know his list can handle up to 3 flyrants and a gargantuan. However, he's going up against what I feel just may be the quintessential Tyranid build. I hope he's ready for the spanking that I am going to give to his army, because that's what this game is going to be....a rude awakening.
1. Hold Either Objective 1.
2. Hold Either Objective 2.
3. Destroy an enemy unit.
4. Destroy an enemy unit.
5. Have a scoring unit at least partially within the enemy deployment zone.
6. Have at least 3 of your scoring units and no enemy scoring units at least partially within your own deployment zone.
Tertiary Objectives: First Blood, Linebreaker, Slay the Warlord, 1-pt each
I don't even know where to begin with how much problems my pentyrant list will cause for most armies. In my opinion, there's only 2 main armies that can give it problems - Necrons with massed tesla shooting (bargelords, AV13 annihilation barges with 3-4 night scythes) and a more slightly tailored, skyfiring Tau army (too bad most Tau players run ions nowadays in competitive play, but that may soon change). Most other armies really don't have the "tools" to deal with massed flyers and especially, massed FMC's.
While my opponent has respectable anti-air (AA) firepower in his army, he has another problem to deal with - trying to penetrate my void shields. All of his flyers shooting may be able to take down 2 flyrants with normal 3+ save, or 1 flyrant with 2+ shrouded cover, but it'll probably take him at least 2 stormtalons just to get rid of all of my void shields. So that's just 2 talons shooting at a flyrant with 2+ cover....he shouldn't even be able to kill 1! However, that doesn't mean he doesn't have a chance. He's still got his most dangerous weapon - the Lynx.
Fortunately, my opponent was able to get 1st turn. That is what will give him a slight chance. This is what he needs to happen. 2 stormtalons will have to wipe out my void shields. My flyrants will be spread out so that large blasts should only hit one. His Lynx then fires. It'll only hit one unless he gets lucky and the other shot scatters onto another one. He then needs to roll 6's on the destroyer table against my flyrant(s) to remove them. Otherwise, I guarantee you that I will be getting 2+ shrouded cover (either in ruins or by jinking). Finally, his other 2 talons and the 2 wave serpents need to focus on and bring down at least 1 flyrant. Best-case scenario, he is able to kill 3 with his 1st turn alpha-strike and then he should be able to win this game. But he needs a lot of favorable "events" to go his way in this situation and that is something I wouldn't bank on. Worst-case scenario is that he won't even be able to bring down 1 flyrant. However, on an average scenario, he just may be able to bring down 1 flyrant. After that, my flyrants take off into the air and shoot down all his anti-air. After that....game over. 4 flyrants is enough to wreck his army. He needs to be able to kill at least 2 flyrants (so only 3 can retaliate) with his initial alpha-strike in order to have any chance at all of a victory in this game.
2 factors may play a role in this game, and both of them are our Warlord traits. We both actually get very good Warlord traits. My opponent got Stealth and Move Through Cover in ruins. Just this alone will cause me to expend double my firepower (exluding my electroshock grubs) to kill any of his Eldar units obscured by ruins, this making his army much harder to kill. However, my Warlord trait is pretty darn good as well. I got the trait which gives me +1 to steal the initiative and to re-roll my reserves. Combine that with the fact that he is running a Lord of War and it means that I can potentially steal the initiative on a 4+!!! Moreover, a large part of my forces is reserves-based. Being able to re-roll reserves is extremely useful to me, especially for bringing in the units that I want and trying to keep the other units that I don't want to come in yet in reserves.
Tactics-wise, I will be ignoring his Lynx initially. That sucker is going to be darn hard to kill, especially on the skyshield. Just to give you an idea of how hard it is go kill it, assuming I fire all 5 flyrants at it:
60 shots, 53 hits, Eldar Titan Holo-fields ignore half of those hits so it then becomes only 27 hits. Being AV11, 9 hits glance/penetrate and then 4.5 is saved by the 4++ Invulnerable of the skypad. So overall, it'll take about 1.5 turns, or 7-8 flyrants shooting at it to be able to kill it. It's much better to just focus on his other units and in particular, the stormtalons as the actual only threats to my flyrants once they are in the air. Once they (the talons) are out of the way, it is just a matter of time before I table, or near-table by opponent.
By the ways, the MSU element of my army - my ground units - will really make it tough for my opponents. Either shoot at my cheapo ground units and let my flyrants continue doing stupendous damage to his forces, or shoot at my flyrants and let my ground forces continue taking objectives/harassing his units. It's a no-win situation for my opponent. Of course the Lynx will be shooting at the ground targets, but that's ok. I really don't mind that he is wasting 2 Destroyer shots a turn in order to kill a 50-pt unit. If his super-heavy does this for 4 turns straight, he's still only killing about half of what his Lynx costs. That, my friends, is the very definition of inefficiency.
One last note, while he can get more troops via Daemon summoning, I have 10 warp dice to his 3. I am going to stuff his attempts. Moreover, he's going to feel the wrath of my Shadows in the Warp. It is very easy to Perils with Malefic powers, and I am going to show his Warlord firsthand what it will be like doing any Summoning while in range of Shadows. I guarantee you, Shadows will get to him in the end (unless he ends up casting Possession).
Tyranids - +1 to Seize the Initiative and may re-roll reserves.
Psychic Powers:
I get 1 Catalyst, 1 Onslaught, 5 Psychic Screams and a mix of other powers for flyrants.
Grant's farseer gets a shooty power, Incursion, Possession and the Summoning.
Eldar deployment, to the right.
My opponent hides his Lynx and Warlord behind BLOS (blocking LOS) terrain (to me left). The model is actually an older, Armorcast Cobra but for this game, he is using it as his Lynx.
My deployment. I spread out all 5 of my flyrants but make sure each and every one is within 6" of the malanthrope and within 12" of the Void Shield Generator (VSG).
Grant then infiltrate the 4 stormtalons (pardon the proxies using only their bases) more than 42" from my flyrants.
Overview of our deployment.
Because of his Lord of War granting me +1 to Seize the Initiative, I would be seizing on a 4+ (due to his LoW and my Warlord Trait). So just for sh*ts and Giggles, I roll the dice to steal anyways. And the result is a ....
The Lynx moves. It can barely see the nose of my malanthrope. Uh oh....that might be bad, considering I have one of my flyrants right next to him.
Talons move up to within assault cannon range (24").
Serpents move towards the skyshield landing pad.
Finally, his farseer moves and then turbo-boosts to within my deployment zone to satisfy one of his Maelstrom objectives (a unit in my deployment zone).
Farseer tries to summon daemons but I stuff it.
We then go onto Shooting.
First off, he fires 2 stormtalons at my flyrant. As I predicted, it took 2 talons to knock out all 3 of my void shields.
He then fires the Lynx because he could barely see the face of my malanthrope (should have turned my malan to face the other direction). BAM!!! Direct hit on the malanthrope and the flyrant right next to it.....with both blasts!
He doesn't roll a on the Destroyer chart and I would then go on to pass all 4 of my 2+ schrouded cover saves.
As for the rest of his shooting, 2 talons and 2 wave serpents manage only to put 1W on a flyrant on the ground.
Tyranids 1
Spoiler:
All of my flyrants take off.
I don't even bother to cast any psychic powers.
After my shooting is done, all 4 of his flyers disappear.
Because he has lost the ability to deal with my flyrants, my opponent has no recourse but to concede.
That was too quick. We decided to reset the game to see if there was anything else he could have done.
Eldar 1
Spoiler:
So we start over.
This time, my opponent deploys his Lynx on the skypad.
He hides his Warlord.
My deployment is the same, though this time, I turn my malanthrope the other way.
He then infiltrates his 4 talons.
Once again, I fail to steal.
All 4 talons fly up.
Serpents go the other way this time. He is going to try to take out my malan with them.
This time, it only takes 1 talon to bust my void shields.
Lynx fires at my top flyrant but I make my 2 2+ cover saves.
Once again, his wave serpents could just barely see the nose of my malan. Doh!
They fire at it but my malan makes all of its saves against them.
3 of his talons fire at my top flyrant and he only manages to get 2W through my 2+ cover.
Tyranids 1
Spoiler:
Not wanting this game to end on Turn 1 again. I decide just for fun to go after the Lynx. Note - this WON'T be my normal tactic in tournament play, but since this was only an experimental game, time to test out the resiliency of the Lynx.
The only power that I bother to cast is Catalyst.
It takes 3 flyrants just to do 2 Hull Points of damage to it (out of a total of 6 HP's). Wanting to make sure I can get First Blood, I then fire my other 2 flyrants at his talons....
I don't manage to get it (First Blood) due to good saves by my opponent, though I do take off 1HP each from 2 talons and cause them to jink.
Eldar 2
Spoiler:
Talons continue to go after my flyrants, though 2 of them have to overshoot my flyrants in order to stay in flying mode.
Serpents continue their advance.
His Warlord's head explodes while trying to summon some daemons (rolled a on the Perils chart and then failed his LD test by rolling 11).
That gives me both First Blood and Warlord.
All of his shooting only manage to put 2W on one of my flyrants (though keep in mind that 2 of them jinked last turn and the 2 in front could only fire their turreted assault cannons behind them).
Tyranids 2
Spoiler:
Ok, no more fun and games, boys and girls. Some of my reserves come in, but I use my Warlord trait to keep most of them out.
This turn, I am going in for the kill.
My Warlord takes 1W while casting Catalyst.
And in a heartbeat, all of his talons are gone.
I even had enough firepower afterwards to take down 1 of his wave serpents.
Just as I expected, my list is super-powerful. My opponent just had no answer for it, and he actually brought a list with good anti-air firepower. Other than for him to pray for some good dice or for me to roll poorly, he just couldn't do anything to my army. I could see how frustrating this game was for him, just like how frustrating his seer council was to so many armies, and that shouldn't be how the game is. Therefore, you won't see me running this type of army in tournament play. The game should be about having fun. There really is no fun when one army can literally do nothing against another. You are not playing against someone. That is just using your opponent as a punching bag. Thus, you won't see me running this type of list anymore unless by request from my opponent for practice.
Seriously, this is the type of list that will make people wonder why they are even playing the game of 40K anyways. Now you may have a small minority of people who will enjoy the challenge of going up against a Pentyrant list, but the majority of the people will hate it. If your goal is to have fun with your opponent, then I would strongly recommend you don't run these types of lists. But if your goal is just to win and you don't care what other people think of your army (and perhaps you!), then you've got a winner on your hands. The Pentyrant build is a serious contender at any tournament you bring it to. As I've said in my disclaimer at the very beginner of the report, you have been warned.
This message was edited 13 times. Last update was at 2014/12/08 17:54:06
This looks like a really rough for the Eldar/SM player to face. The Stormtalons are loaded up with AP4 weapons, so the Hive Tyrants don't even have to jink against them to get good saves (rending from the Assault Cannon is the main danger). The Lynx has good protection (AV11 + holofields + presumable he's sitting on a landing pad?), but those brainleech devourers glance on a 5+, and they're going to have a monstrous number of shots ever turn... makes me wonder if it can survive even a single turn of shooting?
I haven't played against the Lynx before, is it even allowed to shoot at flying units? I know it has that weird flying mode, but I'm not sure if it has skyfire.
2014/12/06 19:07:17
Subject: 1850 Competitive - Jy2's Pentyrant Tyranids vs Eldar w/Tyrannic War Veterans
DanielBeaver wrote: This looks like a really rough for the Eldar/SM player to face. The Stormtalons are loaded up with AP4 weapons, so the Hive Tyrants don't even have to jink against them to get good saves (rending from the Assault Cannon is the main danger). The Lynx has good protection (AV11 + holofields + presumable he's sitting on a landing pad?), but those brainleech devourers glance on a 5+, and they're going to have a monstrous number of shots ever turn... makes me wonder if it can survive even a single turn of shooting?
I haven't played against the Lynx before, is it even allowed to shoot at flying units? I know it has that weird flying mode, but I'm not sure if it has skyfire.
The Lynx on a skyshield is actually pretty darn resilient. Basically, it will ignore 50% of hits if it moves due to Eldar Titan Holo-fields and then it gets its 4++ save on top of that. That's a 75% to ignore the damage effects of any shots. So to put that into perspective, if I fire all 5 flyrants at the Lynx on the skypad:
60 shots, 53 hits, 27 hits get past Holo-fields, 9 hits will glance/pen and only 4.5 gets through the 4++. I'd have to fire all my flyrants at it for almost 2 turns in order to kill it!
No, the Lynx cannot shoot at flying targets, other than with its scatter lasers. Also, when it flies, it cannot shoot.
It's best against ground targets. In other words, my opponent has to knock down my void shields and then he has a chance to fire 2 D-pie plates at my flyrants before they take off into the air. But after that, I don't anticipate the Lynx doing too much.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/06 19:11:29
pinecone77 wrote: In honor of the "schoolin" you gave the Demon Factory with SkyTyrant, I am going to refer to the Formation as "SkyShadow" from now on!
Our gargoyles will block out the sky!
Very excited to see this game, I think that jy2 runs away with this one. I will personally never run 5 Flyrants due to a combination of cheesiness and finances, but I can see it becoming very effective. I will say, however, that I am sold on the SkyTyrant swarm and will be trying it out myself shortly! I think 30 gargs with a ReaperFlyrant can solve a lot of problems for us.
2014/12/06 21:59:56
Subject: 1850 Competitive - Jy2's Pentyrant Tyranids vs Eldar w/Tyrannic War Veterans
pinecone77 wrote: In honor of the "schoolin" you gave the Demon Factory with SkyTyrant, I am going to refer to the Formation as "SkyShadow" from now on!
Let loose the alien birds of war!
But I wouldn't break out any champagne just yet. Playing against my opponent running Daemons is much, much different than, say, playing against the likes of Slaede or yermom running Daemons. Daemon factory run by a really good general is indeed a nightmare to play against.
pinecone77 wrote: In honor of the "schoolin" you gave the Demon Factory with SkyTyrant, I am going to refer to the Formation as "SkyShadow" from now on!
Our gargoyles will block out the sky!
Very excited to see this game, I think that jy2 runs away with this one. I will personally never run 5 Flyrants due to a combination of cheesiness and finances, but I can see it becoming very effective. I will say, however, that I am sold on the SkyTyrant swarm and will be trying it out myself shortly! I think 30 gargs with a ReaperFlyrant can solve a lot of problems for us.
Personally, I wouldn't run 5 flyrants either. It really won't be any fun to most opponents, like bringing a fire hose to a water gun fight, and that's not what this game is about. I did this report because what I really wanted to show was how much Tyranids have changed and how stupid-good a build like this can be. A lot of people will just hate it, just like they did against the seer council last edition. I'm hoping this battle will serve as a cautionary tale....but I am afraid that at the end of the day, people will abuse it just the same. In any case, this battle report is meant to inform. It's not really to show off my new army because honestly, I won't be running it in competitive play.
I am really liking Skytyrant, even only after 1 game with it. The skytyrant is turning out to be better than I thought. In the future, for tournament play, I may probably go with 3 flyrants + Skytyrant. Either that or 3 flyrants + Skyblight. 4 flyrants is probably the most I would ever run in tournament play.
Dozer Blades wrote: This reminds me of my discussion this morning about unbound lists.
It's going to be a trend that you will see more and more. With the release of each new codex, it's no longer just Primary + allies. Now, we're trending towards Primary + formation or 2+ formations. Pretty soon, dual-CAD would seem tame in comparison.
The 40K landscape has been and will continue to be changing. Better get used to it.
Ratius wrote: I forsee much pain for the Eldar. 3 scoring troops at 1850 just dosent cut it.
Ironically, my bugs only have 2 ObSec troops and even less scoring bodies on the table as flyrants should almost always be flying. Scoring-wise, it really shouldn't be a problem for Eldar. Stormtalons can go into Hover mode and they are low enough to still be able to score objectives on the ground.
And then there is Daemon summoning from the farseer.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/12/06 23:00:43
Dozer Blades wrote: This reminds me of my discussion this morning about unbound lists.
It's going to be a trend that you will see more and more. With the release of each new codex, it's no longer just Primary + allies. Now, we're trending towards Primary + formation or 2+ formations. Pretty soon, dual-CAD would seem tame in comparison.
The 40K landscape has been and will continue to be changing. Better get used to it.
At some point we will reach a tipping point where some Tourneys fix the FOC in some way, and the vast majority of players adopt it. You can see early signs of that with the Adepticon point limit (Percentage based) for LOW. Something similar expanded to each FOC category and formations is an easy fix.
Alternatively, a strategy based on Highlander could work, or a penalty for Spam like 'Da Boyz, or some other solution could emerge that fixes the increasing crazyness, and returns us to a more rational, fun, and competitive game.
2014/12/07 03:47:52
Subject: 1850 Competitive - Jy2's Pentyrant Tyranids vs Eldar w/Tyrannic War Veterans
I am all for multi cad and formations but I like to think people respect my armies. Already some tournies in my area are banning Come the Apocalypse and Lance formation - they are not good for the game.
I agree that a percentage limit is coming. 40k will cycle back to what is was at the beginning of 3rd edition when I started playing with percentage limits in all catagories except troops who had a percentage minimum.
2014/12/07 04:34:33
Subject: 1850 Competitive - Jy2's Pentyrant Tyranids vs Eldar w/Tyrannic War Veterans
I don't think the game will totally go back to 3rd edition which was obviously more simple. Percentages for tournaments sounds like it could be a good idea and is more attractive to me than Highlander. Overall I really seventh edition a lot more than sixth but don't like the really crazy armies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/07 04:49:54
Dozer Blades wrote: I don't think the game will totally go back to 3rd edition which was obviously more simple. Percentages for tournaments sounds like it could be a good idea and is more attractive to me than Highlander. Overall I really seventh edition a lot more than sixth but don't like the really crazy armies.
I think you sentiment is share by most players. I agree that Highlander is mainly a novelty, but let me offer a way to expand Highlander that you might be ok with that we've been kicking around our gaming group. The key is the highlander mechanic that allows you to unlock multiple troops, only applying that to FOC slots. The numbers are all preliminary, and we haven't yet included Legion of the Damned, Imperial Knights, Assassins or Formations that are essentially an entire detachment by themselves, for instance the Storm Trooper Formations.
Detachment Level 1
1-1 HQ 0-1 Elite
2-3 Troops
0-1 Fast
0-1 Heavy
0-1 Dedicated Transports
0-0 Formation
0-0 Fortification
0-0 Lord of War
Detachment Level 2
1-1 HQ 1-2 Elite
3-4 Troops
1-2 Fast
1-2 Heavy
0-2 Dedicated Transports
0-1 Formation (Max 350 Points)
0-0 Fortification
0-0 Lord of War
Detachment Level 3
1-2 HQ 2-3 Elite
4-6 Troops
2-3 Fast
2-3 Heavy
0-3 Dedicated Transports
0-1 Formation (Max 650 Points)
0-1 Fortification (Max 250 Points)
0-1 Lord of War (Max 650 Points)
Detachment Level 4
2-3 HQ 3-4 Elite
6-8 Troops
3-4 Fast
3-4 Heavy
0-5 Dedicated Transports
0-2 Formation (Max 1000 Points total)
0-1 Fortification (Max 500 Points)
0-1 Lord of War (Max 1000 Points)
Take as many Detachments as you want, but you must pick from this list, and you are limited to one detachment per Faction.
2014/12/07 16:20:40
Subject: Re:1850 Competitive - Jy2's Pentyrant Tyranids vs Eldar w/Tyrannic War Veterans
DarthDiggler wrote: I agree that a percentage limit is coming. 40k will cycle back to what is was at the beginning of 3rd edition when I started playing with percentage limits in all catagories except troops who had a percentage minimum.
It's going to be harder and harder to do that as the game is going more and more towards formation-based armies. I mean, how do limit an army that is running formations like Skyblight, where almost all the units there are Fast Attacks, or the Corpsethief Claw, where you are running 5 Heavy Support units? I'm sure there are many more formations like that and also more coming out in the future as well.
If there are any limits, it will be those imposed by local tournaments. GW on the whole is going more towards an open-structured system where you can almost bring whatever the heck you like.
Dozer Blades wrote: This reminds me of my discussion this morning about unbound lists.
It's going to be a trend that you will see more and more. With the release of each new codex, it's no longer just Primary + allies. Now, we're trending towards Primary + formation or 2+ formations. Pretty soon, dual-CAD would seem tame in comparison.
The 40K landscape has been and will continue to be changing. Better get used to it.
At some point we will reach a tipping point where some Tourneys fix the FOC in some way, and the vast majority of players adopt it. You can see early signs of that with the Adepticon point limit (Percentage based) for LOW. Something similar expanded to each FOC category and formations is an easy fix.
Alternatively, a strategy based on Highlander could work, or a penalty for Spam like 'Da Boyz, or some other solution could emerge that fixes the increasing crazyness, and returns us to a more rational, fun, and competitive game.
I'd be curious to see how they will "fix" it. Personally, I really don't care how they do it as long as everyone is following the same restrictions. Unfortunately, people will always find ways around it as they build the most powerful army they can under any type of self-imposed comp.
BTW, I really like the Highlander format, but it won't be the tournament for everyone. I am liking how the larger GT's are handling it. Most larger GT's allow 2 or even 3 formats - a "Championship" type main event, a narrative or No-holds-barred type event and/or a more casual/friendly comped even (like the Highlander). I think that is the way to go. You force players to do just 1 type of event and you lose potential players. You allow for multiple events and now you not only satisfy a wider range of audience, but you have the potential to generate more revenue as well by offering more "products" (from a TO perspective).
Dozer Blades wrote: I am all for multi cad and formations but I like to think people respect my armies. Already some tournies in my area are banning Come the Apocalypse and Lance formation - they are not good for the game.
"Respect" is really subjective. Some will respect your army as a challenge or even a fun army to play against. Other people may think it is too much even for them to handle and therefore, "cheesy".
BTW, the West Coast tournaments running the BAO format have banned Come the Apocalypse allies ever since 7th came out.
herpguy wrote: All I can muster is a very sad chuckle when looking at what "legal" lists are nowadays.
It's scary how the game is progressing in an environment that is getting less and less structured than before. And the saddest part is that this is actually being encouraged by the very people who made the game.
Dozer Blades wrote: I don't think the game will totally go back to 3rd edition which was obviously more simple. Percentages for tournaments sounds like it could be a good idea and is more attractive to me than Highlander. Overall I really seventh edition a lot more than sixth but don't like the really crazy armies.
The signs were there from the very beginning. I mean, come on, allowing Super-heavies, unlimited CAD and the taking of any allies into regular games of 40K? How can things NOT get crazy? It is only due to the hard work of TO's across the world that we still maintain some semblance of sanity in competitive gaming...and yet people are still griping about not playing the game as GW intended. To that, I say, f*ck how the game was intended.
The game is getting comped....and that, to me, is actually a good thing.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/12/07 17:07:20
So while talons may not be the ideal platform from which to challenge flyrants.. it still seems like they would have been better served in reserve.
Clearly attempting to shoot into 2+ cover is futile unless you ignore it so I just dont understand why you'd ever try. Instead you simply start in reserve in 2x2 pairs and hope you can hold out against their shooting until then (which, admittedly in this instance may be dicey, but just keeping only the lynx/skyshield on the board and reserving everything else wouldnt have been a terrible option).
just my 02cents.
Also JY2 are you gonna be in LA for games testing at all soon? I really need a good test vs this type of list for LVO practice, as I suspect (along with you clearly) that nids will be in the meta in a big way, so I need to see how i do against them. In theory I have a list that can at least handle 4 flyrants, but I do need practice against it.
Yeah, not sure the thinking on either game. Hmm. Shooting through 2+ cover didn't work the first time; let's try it again!
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2014/12/08 18:39:17
Subject: Re:1850 Competitive - Jy2's Pentyrant Tyranids vs Eldar w/Tyrannic War Veterans (Completed)
I completely agree that your Pentyrant list is super tough. From your opponent's perspective however, why not reserve the Stormtalons and have them come in once your Flyrants are no longer shrouded and under Void Shield protection? Your list is set up to stay safe from an Alpha Strike, but once airborne other flyers can come on and have a better chance of outmaneuvering the Flyrants. There's no way your 5 Flyrants were going to do TOO much damage right away, particularly if he kept everything on/near the Skyshield. Just my two cents.
2014/12/08 18:40:34
Subject: 1850 Competitive - Jy2's Pentyrant Tyranids vs Eldar w/Tyrannic War Veterans (Completed)
Yeah, not to harsh the eldar guy, but I'd love to see skytyrant against a harder player.
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2014/12/08 18:58:39
Subject: Re:1850 Competitive - Jy2's Pentyrant Tyranids vs Eldar w/Tyrannic War Veterans (Completed)
Homeskillet wrote: I completely agree that your Pentyrant list is super tough. From your opponent's perspective however, why not reserve the Stormtalons and have them come in once your Flyrants are no longer shrouded and under Void Shield protection? Your list is set up to stay safe from an Alpha Strike, but once airborne other flyers can come on and have a better chance of outmaneuvering the Flyrants. There's no way your 5 Flyrants were going to do TOO much damage right away, particularly if he kept everything on/near the Skyshield. Just my two cents.
First off, that is an awesome username.
The problem with reserving the talons is that you run two risks:
1) the (presumably two) squadrons will come in piecemeal. This risk is even greater when you split them up into four individual units, and if they don't all come in at once it's a sad, sad day
2) either of the (presumably two) squadrons would come in on turn three or four (even if they both did this, it would be really really bad). Basically, you need as many chances to kill the Flyrants as possible
That being said, they basically are flying rhinos. It would be interesting to see fire raptors or storm ravens kitted out against the Flyrants. I've found that they are much tougher to kill (av 12 4 hp) and of course their guns are natively ap 3 or better (or at least can be). This is a much bigger issue that will force a Flyrant to jink. Rending ap 4? I might just take my chances with my 3+
Also, it goes without saying that a super heavy tank with a blast weapon is going to be a huge handicap against a list like this. There are definitely bigger challenges to Flyrant spam (or Flyrant Council as Gigasnail has apparently coined it). I'm ok with Pentyrant too FWIW.
I agree that this will probably be the new top tier Tyranid build (or some variant of this) and its a little bit sad. No Tyranid player really wanted our own version of wave serpent spam, but here we have it. I would also definitely be interested to see how Leviathan + Skyblight does
2014/12/08 19:06:30
Subject: 1850 Competitive - Jy2's Pentyrant Tyranids vs Eldar w/Tyrannic War Veterans (Completed)
pretre wrote: Yeah, not to harsh the eldar guy, but I'd love to see skytyrant against a harder player.
I don't think it's the player at all. There is no scenario barring a dice miracle that lets Eldar win this game. None at all. I want to see this list against a ground force personally, like a bikestar. If you try to outshoot a pentyrant list you will lose, no questions asked. But, a fast list that can zoom past and hit the enemy backfield... that may have a chance. Drop Pod lists, SW ThunderCalv, WS Bike lists, Daemon screamerstars, etc. A Tau list bristling with skyfire and ignores cover could also be nasty here. I think this list is a super hard counter to Eldar, and gunlines in general, but everything has weaknesses. THe lack of ground presence here stands out, but it will be hard to exploit since Flyrants are so versatile.
2014/12/08 19:12:26
Subject: 1850 Competitive - Jy2's Pentyrant Tyranids vs Eldar w/Tyrannic War Veterans (Completed)
So how does pentyrant deal with a landraider or 2? How does it deal with triple burst tides? how does it deal with add lance with AM for anti air? Basically, how do you handle any army that is capable of surviving your shooting (which in theory should be a few) and only has to murder your squishy troops on turn 4 and five and win the game?.
2014/12/08 19:12:28
Subject: 1850 Competitive - Jy2's Pentyrant Tyranids vs Eldar w/Tyrannic War Veterans (Completed)
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2014/12/08 19:15:51
Subject: 1850 Competitive - Jy2's Pentyrant Tyranids vs Eldar w/Tyrannic War Veterans (Completed)
pretre wrote: Yeah, not to harsh the eldar guy, but I'd love to see skytyrant against a harder player.
Grant's a GT winner and a regular at top tables, so it isn't as though Jim was clubbing a baby seal here. I'm sure the thought was to lay it all out trying to gib the malanthrope, and down a few tyrants. I agree that Eldar's normal strategy of dealing with enemies they can't hurt is to cat and mouse all game until you either A) have no other targets or B) you force your opponent to make a mistake, is probably the better call here. However, at the end of the day it's just delaying the inevitable in this scenario.
I'd have put the Lynx in max range of the ground targets on the sky shield in my back corner, Farseer w/in guide range behind some BLOS. Everything else in reserve, roll hard for the reserve manipulation WL trait. Take first turn just to make sure that you're talons come on after he's out of the bubble when they arrive. Once the flyrants are out, bring in the talons and play man to man D. One talon per flyrant, forcing them to spend the rest of the game jinking. Depending on how you play Psychic Shriek the Farseer could help out here or there. Once a Flyrant is down a few wounds put a couple talons on them to get the kill.
So that's my best case arm chair quarterbacking in this scenario. Problem is, Jy2 can just sit in his bubble all day playing musical chairs flying the tyrants in circles around the Mal. While he'd give up maelstrom, you are too because you're hiding in the corner. Best case scenario is that you start nabbing objectives with your warlord and tyranids send 2-3 tyrants to kill him. Then you can bring in talons and pick those off. But a smart opponent knows that primary is his as long as he hits second, so they'd just give you secondary and grab Primary/First Blood/Line Breaker for the easy win.
Jy2's point stands, Grant was hosed before they decided which table to play on. 5 Flyrants is easily a GT winning list, just like necron air used to be, just like seer council used to be. It's a list that takes 0 skill to play (which is one of the main points of this batrep), and forces you to either tailor to it (and get destroyed by every other army in a tournament) or try to minimize how badly you lose. In a strategy game (as 40k purports to be), being able to put a list on autopilot and come back to collect your win is very poor design. The worst part is, this isn't LoW or Forge World or anything of that nature. This list is acceptable at just about any tournament around the country, no questions asked. Between this, IK's forcing LoW's to be accepted, and ignorance like Deamon factories it seems like GW is really pushing the community to accept unbound as a thing. By releasing so many broken items/units in so many different forms (codex/data slates/formations) it's becoming nigh to impossible to police what is clearly lazy/bad rules writing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pony_law wrote: So how does pentyrant deal with a landraider or 2? How does it deal with triple burst tides? how does it deal with add lance with AM for anti air? Basically, how do you handle any army that is capable of surviving your shooting (which in theory should be a few) and only has to murder your squishy troops on turn 4 and five and win the game?.
Electro Shock Grubs for anything with armor, Catalyst to survive Riptides. 5 tyrants should only take 1-2 turns per IK, 1 turn per Riptide. Only issue with riptides is not getting killed before you're in range, but 3+ and FnP should make that easy enough.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/08 19:21:31
It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.
Voltaire
2014/12/08 19:25:19
Subject: 1850 Competitive - Jy2's Pentyrant Tyranids vs Eldar w/Tyrannic War Veterans (Completed)
To be fair, I should have said harder player / different list.
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on the Destroyer chart and I would then go on to pass all 4 of my 2+ schrouded cover saves.
on the Perils chart and then failed his 
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
