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I'm realizing that Space Wolves troops choices outdo those offered by any other MEQ army such as vanilla Space Marines, DA, BA or CSM

Why? Simple:

You got 2 types of Troops choices as a Wolf player:

Bloodclaws and Grey Hunters

Let's take a look at Bloodclaws first. These guys are strictly better than Black Templar initiates for the following reasons:

Bloodclaws are cc-oriented units which are only BS and WS 3. The former doesnt matter since... well they'll only ever get to fire boltpistols once or twice per game just like any other melee unit, and the latter only means enemies usually hit them on 3s instead of 4s, but they themselves usually hit enemies on 4+ just like most other cc-guys. They are 2 points cheaper than Initiates, and neither have Adamantium Will, nor can they improve their run moves or add D3 to sweeping advance moves both due to the Crusader USR which Initiates have.

However, they have counter attack and rage, so in the first round of combat, while Initiates have 3 attacks each on the turn they charge and otherwise 2 if they get charged, Bloodclaws have 3 attacks when they get charged and FOUR if they charge.

And while Initiates are limited to 10 power armored guys and 10 neophytes, the space wolf player can have upto 15 power armored Bloodclaws, and if he does that, he can take 2 special weapons instead of 1.

Both Initiates and Bloodclaws can have 1 power weapon in the squad and 1 on the sarge, but it gets even better - the Bloodclaw leader can be upgraded to have terminator armor, and thus easily overpower any Sword Brother (sarge for the Initiates) in a challenge as well - a place where usually BTs shine due to their chapter tactics.


Furthermore, Lukas the Trickster is a damn awesome HQ that could potentially take a Swarmlord down with him if he gets killed.


And then you have the Grey Hunters. Essentially ranged Space Marines who do not have access to a heavy weapon, but can take a special for every 5 guys instead and on top of that, for 2 ppm take ccws, essentially doing everything Bloodclaws are (except rage) and then some due to the higher WS and BS and presence of Bolters.

BA just lost their Assault Marines and Death Company from the Troops slots, so they're out of the picture. And CSM dont even match up as they lack ATSKNF.

PAGKs are bit more complicated to judge... they cost 4 points more per model than a Grey Hunter upgraded to have a cc-weapon as well, and outperform him in that their ranged weapon essentially has twice the firepower beyond 12", their cc-weapon is AP3, and they are psykers either able to boost their S by 2 or active the force on their weapons, and they can deepstrike on top of all this, but they lack counter attack and their special weapons arent particularly useful against MEQ/TEQ or armor, which is the forté of plasmaguns and meltas.

But for some reason GK players say PAGKs suck

Thoughts?

They're still outshone by Battle Sisters, who for a couple points cheaper have the same special weapon advantages, a better transport, more survivability (most AP3 guns don't care if you're T4 or T3, but they sure care if you have an invulnerable save) and greater numbers. Sure, the Sisters can't perform in close combat quite as well (although Preferred Enemy helps), but in a shooting game or a surviving game, and with easy access to Fearless?

Grey Hunters don't hold a candle.

You forgot the banner the grey hunters can take that add +1 cc attack for each unit near it.

30 blood claws and 10 grey hunters is very dangerous as a swarm.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
They're still outshone by Battle Sisters, who for a couple points cheaper have the same special weapon advantages, a better transport, more survivability (most AP3 guns don't care if you're T4 or T3, but they sure care if you have an invulnerable save) and greater numbers. Sure, the Sisters can't perform in close combat quite as well (although Preferred Enemy helps), but in a shooting game or a surviving game, and with easy access to Fearless?

Grey Hunters don't hold a candle.

Agreed, 5 Battle Sisters in a Repressor rocking Flamer/Heavy Flamer or 2 Meltas are some of the best troops in the game simply because of the special weapons they get an AV 13 Repressor being the best armour value in the game points wise. They also horde better because throw a Priest of two in a large unit and you will be getting a 3+ re-rollable save in combat while re-rolling to wound. Cheaper, more special weapons, invulnerable save, Act of Faith, better transport. They are just better everywhere it matters.

Grey Hunters may be able to get 1 power weapon per 5 marines. Other than that they really do not have much going for them, they do not have a chapter tactic. They have counter-attack, but on a non-dedicated assault unit is not that great, they also have acute senses, where most of the time it is useless. The banner may be nice in the fact that gives extra attack, but majority of the time it is just that unit that uses it and even with 1 extra attack they are really meh in assault.

Blood claws it may be nice being able to go to 15 size unit, but still only being bs/ws 3 is a big hit, so special weapons other than flamers it is really a toss up because you will miss 50% of the time if not more. Rage is nice, but if not having a character attached then have to deal with poor leadership. Lukas is nice, but still can only be attached to blood claws, be nice if could attach to something else. Upgrading the sergeant to be in terminator armor is unique, but this stops them from diong sweeping advances and is way to expensive.
Since the new wolves codex came out their troops went from being useful to being more of a tax

Plague Marines! Expensive for sure bit fearless, t5, fnp, and defensive grenades. Add a cheap icon and the cause fear as well. Two special weapons per squad, even with just 5 models and poisoned melee attacks. They come with a boltgun and bolt pistol and Plague knife.

A 10 man strike squad with 2 psycannons would probably beat any other marine power armor squads in a simulated 24 inch engagement. I don't think that means strike squads are better than Grey Hunters. Because for similar pointage you can have a drop pod with your plasma spam GH for more aggressive drops. Also the ability to take meltas. Don't knock cannons though - extremely versatile weapon. Personally I don't take Strike squads. I start all GK armies around 2 5 man terms. It's been working for me fielding 0 power armor units as GK. Why? cause power armor is bad.

I'm having fun taking the Wolves back to 5th edition with 5 man Blood Claw packs hiding in Razorbacks. You can't beat 135 points for 5 power armored ObSec bodies with ATSKNF who come with an ObSec LasBack.

Grey Hunters were amazing back when damn near everything else in the codex was overpriced. The new book made them more expensive and took away the two upgrades that made them really good in combat.

SW troops have always been tacticals+1 and assault marines +1. That being said, I'm hardly worried if my UM drop force or my White Scars have to deal with SW.

 Lobukia wrote:
SW troops have always been tacticals+1 and assault marines +1. That being said, I'm hardly worried if my UM drop force or my White Scars have to deal with SW.

I think the fairest comparison is CSM+1. They're basically the same base price, but ATSKNF alone makes them so much better.

They are much fairer since the 7th ed update, although they were definitely broken for their 5th ed launch. Without CCWs, they're Tacticals who trade out potential shooting buffs for counter-attack. With CCWs, they cost more, but have more utility for shooting and assault. This makes them better than Assault Marines in every manner but the most important - mobility.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
They're still outshone by Battle Sisters, who for a couple points cheaper have the same special weapon advantages, a better transport, more survivability (most AP3 guns don't care if you're T4 or T3, but they sure care if you have an invulnerable save) and greater numbers. Sure, the Sisters can't perform in close combat quite as well (although Preferred Enemy helps), but in a shooting game or a surviving game, and with easy access to Fearless?

Grey Hunters don't hold a candle.

Sister and Grey Hunter durability against common anti-infantry weapons:

vs Lasguns - it takes 6 hits to kill a Sister, 9 hits to kill a Grey Hunter
vs Boltguns - it takes 4.5 hits to kill a Sister, 6 hits to kill a Grey Hunter
vs Heavy Bolters - it takes 3.6 hits to kill a Sister, 4.5 hits to kill a Grey Hunter.

So, against weapons far more commonly encountered than plasmaguns, the Sister is notably more fragile than the Grey Hunter. The sister has a durability advantage against special weapons, sure, but being more durable in the minority of cases doesn't make them more survivable overall.

I think bikers are better. They're relentless, T5, fast and can carry a nice array of weapons.

... basically, IRT the OP... no, Space Wolves are *not*, hands down, the best power armor Troops.

Arguable, maybe, but there's valid arguments for other choices.

 Sir Arun wrote:

And CSM dont even match up as they lack ATSKNF.

CSM have access to ini 5 and FNP with Slaaneshits or s5 and 4 attacks on the charge with Khornates or s6 if you go nuts with Fabius Bile.
They have access to Fearless. Can get ATSKNF, H&R and Shrowded with Cypher.
And have access to infiltrate.
Have much easier access to invisibility. And can counter it themselves if Kharn's involved. He's also killing knights dead.

tompaj wrote:
Plague Marines! Expensive for sure bit fearless, t5, fnp, and defensive grenades. Add a cheap icon and the cause fear as well. Two special weapons per squad, even with just 5 models and poisoned melee attacks. They come with a boltgun and bolt pistol and Plague knife.

/thread
(Except is it blasphemy to take a Plague Marine squad in any other number than 7!)

Jefffar wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
They're still outshone by Battle Sisters, who for a couple points cheaper have the same special weapon advantages, a better transport, more survivability (most AP3 guns don't care if you're T4 or T3, but they sure care if you have an invulnerable save) and greater numbers. Sure, the Sisters can't perform in close combat quite as well (although Preferred Enemy helps), but in a shooting game or a surviving game, and with easy access to Fearless?

Grey Hunters don't hold a candle.

Sister and Grey Hunter durability against common anti-infantry weapons:

vs Lasguns - it takes 6 hits to kill a Sister, 9 hits to kill a Grey Hunter
vs Boltguns - it takes 4.5 hits to kill a Sister, 6 hits to kill a Grey Hunter
vs Heavy Bolters - it takes 3.6 hits to kill a Sister, 4.5 hits to kill a Grey Hunter.

So, against weapons far more commonly encountered than plasmaguns, the Sister is notably more fragile than the Grey Hunter. The sister has a durability advantage against special weapons, sure, but being more durable in the minority of cases doesn't make them more survivable overall.

Yes. And a battle sister costs 86% as much as a marine, has the SW special weapons access and has a better dedicated transport.

If you're talking about the "best power armored infantry" in terms of just strength, you have to look at Thousand Sons, Plague Marines, even things like Wolf Guard and Chosen and Death Company.

If you're talking about the best value for points, I'm afraid the girls beat the boys on that front hands down.

Previous SW codex I would have said that grey hunters were easily one of the best. 2 cheap special weapons, one of them being free, and 2 cc attacks at the same cost as a normal marine.

Now however they have lost the cheap specials, and have to pay more for their extra attack, meaning they are not as great as they used to be.

But sisters dont have access to plasma, which IMO is one of the better specials, given how its harder to one-shot tanks this edition with meltas than it ever was before

 Rippy wrote:

tompaj wrote:
Plague Marines! Expensive for sure bit fearless, t5, fnp, and defensive grenades. Add a cheap icon and the cause fear as well. Two special weapons per squad, even with just 5 models and poisoned melee attacks. They come with a boltgun and bolt pistol and Plague knife.

/thread
(Except is it blasphemy to take a Plague Marine squad in any other number than 7!)

Yeah I like how Chaos is so chaotic that it has to stick to specific numbers. Also nearly all demons are humanoid. Even the great unclean one.

I would say hands down the best troop choice would be toss up between IF/clan rauken marines on bikes or sisters. Space wolves are not even close.

 Sir Arun wrote:

BA just lost their Assault Marines and Death Company from the Troops slots, so they're out of the picture. And CSM dont even match up as they lack ATSKNF.

I'm PRETTY sure DC are still troops.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:

BA just lost their Assault Marines and Death Company from the Troops slots, so they're out of the picture. And CSM dont even match up as they lack ATSKNF.

I'm PRETTY sure DC are still troops.

They're still Troops until Friday.

oz of the north wrote:
I would say hands down the best troop choice would be toss up between IF/clan rauken marines on bikes or sisters. Space wolves are not even close.

Totally agree with you on SM bikes, though I prefer Whitescar bikes with khan in the list over iron hands.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

oz of the north wrote:
I would say hands down the best troop choice would be toss up between IF/clan rauken marines on bikes or sisters. Space wolves are not even close.

Totally agree with you on SM bikes, though I prefer Whitescar bikes with khan in the list over iron hands.

I was just going based on survivability.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:

BA just lost their Assault Marines and Death Company from the Troops slots, so they're out of the picture. And CSM dont even match up as they lack ATSKNF.

I'm PRETTY sure DC are still troops.

They're still Troops until Friday.

Why? they have the troop symbol in deathstorm. I find it hard to believe the codex and deathstorm will be different.

 BoomWolf wrote:

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:

BA just lost their Assault Marines and Death Company from the Troops slots, so they're out of the picture. And CSM dont even match up as they lack ATSKNF.

I'm PRETTY sure DC are still troops.

They're still Troops until Friday.

Why? they have the troop symbol in deathstorm. I find it hard to believe the codex and deathstorm will be different.

Now would be a good time to start believing. DC and Assaults have been moved to Elites and FA respectively.

On topic, I think it's hard to pick best, but if I has access to any of them to build an army, I think GH would be my first pick, CSM my second and IF/UM/RG Tacticals third. Buff then, Sisters are very nice too.

That makes zero sense.
We got troop DC in deathstorm and elite DC in codex, despite the two being practically simultaneous releases?

Where did you bring that from?

I wont believe it until I see a picture of the codex with DC as elites.

Can't BA tacticals take a heavy flamer? I'd say that puts them right up there.

 BoomWolf wrote:
That makes zero sense.
We got troop DC in deathstorm and elite DC in codex, despite the two being practically simultaneous releases?

Where did you bring that from?

I wont believe it until I see a picture of the codex with DC as elites.

Several people who have the codex have confirmed it in the N&R thread, and they are in the Elites section on the GW site. It is stupid, but this is GW we're dealing with here..

Zsolt wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

tompaj wrote:
Plague Marines! Expensive for sure bit fearless, t5, fnp, and defensive grenades. Add a cheap icon and the cause fear as well. Two special weapons per squad, even with just 5 models and poisoned melee attacks. They come with a boltgun and bolt pistol and Plague knife.

/thread
(Except is it blasphemy to take a Plague Marine squad in any other number than 7!)

Yeah I like how Chaos is so chaotic that it has to stick to specific numbers. Also nearly all demons are humanoid. Even the great unclean one.

That IS chaotic. The number 7 makes no sense! It has no logic. Also, they are humanoid because sentient emotions power the Chaos gods and therefore their Daemons. Humans emotions make up the vast majority of empowerment for the dark gods. It makes more sense for Daemons to appear humanoid for this reason.

Sorry off topic above.