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 Paradigm wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Anyone else think that ideal build for 10 tacticals will be:

Heavy Flamer

Melta Gun

Sgt with one hand flamer and one Infernus pistol.

I think I prefer the synergy of all flamers or all meltas, just so everything gets used whenever the unit fires. I'm also leaning towards power Swords on Sergeants; hitting with S5 I5 he should be putting a few models in the ground before they can swing back, and makes a good duellist against other characters of a similar level.

I personally like anti-infantry loadouts in a razor with anti-tank, or vice versa. Although the TL HF razor looks less good now that tacs can get heavy flamers.

If anyone has any ideas of how to make this book work against Eldar, I'm all ears. I still have no idea how I would deal with them.

I disagree, and highly doubt we'll see a Deathstorm FAQ.

Being troops encourages thier use, and sales of Deathstorm.

 Carnage43 wrote:
Just wanted to add, Cassor and the Deathstorm DC squad being troops is either a typo, or is specifically meant for the the Deathstorm missions only. I would not expect GW to allow troop DC and dreads for normal 40k games very long.

FAQ will probably be something like "Cassor and Rahpen's Death Company are a troop choice for Deathstorm scenarios only, when taken in a standard 40k army they are Elite choices".

So I wouldn't get too attached to them as a staple troop going forward.

Except that we are talking about GW here, with their thorough and well updated FAQs.

 unfassbarnathan wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:
Just wanted to add, Cassor and the Deathstorm DC squad being troops is either a typo, or is specifically meant for the the Deathstorm missions only. I would not expect GW to allow troop DC and dreads for normal 40k games very long.

FAQ will probably be something like "Cassor and Rahpen's Death Company are a troop choice for Deathstorm scenarios only, when taken in a standard 40k army they are Elite choices".

So I wouldn't get too attached to them as a staple troop going forward.

Except that we are talking about GW here, with their thorough and well updated FAQs.

Well, my money is on GW 'fixing' them to be Elites and at the same time forget to give Cassor a Strength-value.
They do have their priorities

Not that it really matters, both units are unique and the DC-squad is too expensive.

 unfassbarnathan wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:
Just wanted to add, Cassor and the Deathstorm DC squad being troops is either a typo, or is specifically meant for the the Deathstorm missions only. I would not expect GW to allow troop DC and dreads for normal 40k games very long.

FAQ will probably be something like "Cassor and Rahpen's Death Company are a troop choice for Deathstorm scenarios only, when taken in a standard 40k army they are Elite choices".

So I wouldn't get too attached to them as a staple troop going forward.

Except that we are talking about GW here, with their thorough and well updated FAQs.

Exactly....you expect them to allow people to have fun with non-crap troops!? They will crush that in record time.

And the new BA codex is exactly why I have been pointing out the weakness of tac marines even after the 5th ed BA codex dropped. It's bad for the game and I knew it would eventually affect me.

Martel732 wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Anyone else think that ideal build for 10 tacticals will be:

Heavy Flamer

Melta Gun

Sgt with one hand flamer and one Infernus pistol.

I think I prefer the synergy of all flamers or all meltas, just so everything gets used whenever the unit fires. I'm also leaning towards power Swords on Sergeants; hitting with S5 I5 he should be putting a few models in the ground before they can swing back, and makes a good duellist against other characters of a similar level.

I personally like anti-infantry loadouts in a razor with anti-tank, or vice versa. Although the TL HF razor looks less good now that tacs can get heavy flamers.

If anyone has any ideas of how to make this book work against Eldar, I'm all ears. I still have no idea how I would deal with them.

I was wondering if the new BA book would get you to start posting again. Good to have you back Martel; I always found your POV and opinions interesting.

As for what to do against eldar, nothing leaps out at me from what I’ve seen. I don’t see them doing better against serpent spam then codex marines. You might be able to put together a counter-deathstar if MC/deathstars are what’s bothering you. I suspect that will work better for the BAs then us codex guys.

I love having the heavy flamer as an option, but I really feel like I'm going to get shot before I can use it.

Eldar, from the games I have been observing lately, have evolved beyond pure serpent spam for 7th. However, since most of that book is amazing, it kind of doesn't matter.

 Nevelon wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Anyone else think that ideal build for 10 tacticals will be:

Heavy Flamer

Melta Gun

Sgt with one hand flamer and one Infernus pistol.

I think I prefer the synergy of all flamers or all meltas, just so everything gets used whenever the unit fires. I'm also leaning towards power Swords on Sergeants; hitting with S5 I5 he should be putting a few models in the ground before they can swing back, and makes a good duellist against other characters of a similar level.

I personally like anti-infantry loadouts in a razor with anti-tank, or vice versa. Although the TL HF razor looks less good now that tacs can get heavy flamers.

If anyone has any ideas of how to make this book work against Eldar, I'm all ears. I still have no idea how I would deal with them.

I was wondering if the new BA book would get you to start posting again. Good to have you back Martel; I always found your POV and opinions interesting.

As for what to do against eldar, nothing leaps out at me from what I’ve seen. I don’t see them doing better against serpent spam then codex marines. You might be able to put together a counter-deathstar if MC/deathstars are what’s bothering you. I suspect that will work better for the BAs then us codex guys.

Well, I think it can be said that there's no apparent counter to WS Spam, but the same could be said of any codex out there. Honestly, if there was one in the new BA book I'd probably be alarmed; one build that anomalously powerful is bad for the game, two would be worse.

But against Eldar in general, I think we have a few nice tricks. With Fast Rhinos, we can be in their deployment zone with Flamers and HF on T2, and Assaulting on T3. With permanent Furious Charge most Elder units should crumple even to just Tacticals, and HF/Flamers should do nicely at piling up kills on their squishy Infantry. To deal with the tanks, we have plenty of options for DS Meltas between Assault Marines, Dual-Melta Furiosos and Sternguard (all-melta Command Squads with pods or JP could also fill the role). The mobility they have can be countered by using our own fast units with attached buffing HQs. SangGuard with a Priest or Libby could make nice headhunters, focusing on Elite units that they should be able to catch easily enough.

When dealing with Tau and Eldar, I find 5 is the magic number that gets us wounding on 2s, and with heavy Flamers and FC we should have the measure of them at close range, and with Fast Rhinos and more JP we're better equipped to get there that Codex Marines.

The White Scars would disagree with you, but I get your point. I've been "trying to get there" since 5th ed Necrons and Grey Knights dropped, and it hasn't really worked out.

Honestly, in my few ease-in games to 7th, the ubiquity of rending in the Eldar army killed me more than WS. The jink rule made them non-crazy, merely very strong. Pseudo rending everywhere plus just so much scatter laser firepower. The scatter laser wasn't fair in 5th ed, and has only gotten worse.

True, Scars are probably the best matchup, but I was more meaning that in general, we can get places faster/better than most non-biker SM Armies (maybe Ravens could beat us there, but don't hit as hard once they do).

The pseudo-Rending Everything is an issue that can't really be negated, but on the other hand, with the focus on aggression and damage before retaliation, the short range damage and decent CC ability could again stand BA in better stead than some other SM, although the jury is still out on BA Tacs vs Grey Hunters.

Grey hunters are better. They've always been better. They always will be better. I have accepted this. It's just disappointing to be worse than the SW. Again. And also inferior to the vanilla marines. Really, I'm not sure how many spots up the BA have really moved. It's a much more modern codex to work with, but it's just not clear how it's going to stand up in practice.

I think i'm gonna go with this for 1850:

Furioso Libby Dread- Mastery Level 2, Drop Pod

Furioso- Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod
Furioso- Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod
Furioso- Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod

Mortis Contemptor- 2 Kheres Assault Cannons
Mortis Contemptor- 2 Kheres Assault Cannons

Empty Drop Pod

Imperial Knight Errant
Imperial Knight Errant

Furioso's All drop turn 1, libby and spare pod later on.

Coz, you know, i like having friends

Bear in mind the assault cannon is only 24" so loss of scout means it takes effectively and extra turn to bring those guns to bear. Also Outflank was great for getting onto the rear armour of vehicles, I've wrecked countless tanks through that move.

Also it's pretty full in the HS slots, are Baals going to be top of my list for the slot? I need to see the dex first but suspect I'll be fielding my dual Baal less than before.

D

 evildrcheese wrote:
Bear in mind the assault cannon is only 24" so loss of scout means it takes effectively and extra turn to bring those guns to bear. Also Outflank was great for getting onto the rear armour of vehicles, I've wrecked countless tanks through that move.

Also it's pretty full in the HS slots, are Baals going to be top of my list for the slot? I need to see the dex first but suspect I'll be fielding my dual Baal less than before.

D

Bearing in mind it can move 12" and still fire two weapons at full BS, I'm still not convinced that the loss is an issue. It can still hit a foot into the enemy DZ on the first turn, the only way it would be losing out on a turn would be in enemy literally deployed as far away as possible, and frankly, they're not scary enough to warrant that.

 mixer86 wrote:
I think i'm gonna go with this for 1850:

Furioso Libby Dread- Mastery Level 2, Drop Pod

Furioso- Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod
Furioso- Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod
Furioso- Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod

Mortis Contemptor- 2 Kheres Assault Cannons
Mortis Contemptor- 2 Kheres Assault Cannons

Empty Drop Pod

Imperial Knight Errant
Imperial Knight Errant

Furioso's All drop turn 1, libby and spare pod later on.

Coz, you know, i like having friends

Very boring to Play against

Well, furious charge means that instead of making a single S6 grenade attack in melee per marine, you can make their full complement at S5 when charging WS or other vehicles. So, you also have that vs. codex marines.

A 5 man scout squad should be able to drop a serpent on a charge, meaning a couple of those plus some guys in pods can become a sizable nuisance if you get more into the enemy's zone than he can comfortably kill turn 1.

The importance of the +1I cannot be overstated IMO. Now BA units can kills other MEQ before they even attack, and even if they aren't wiped out, there will be too few left to do any meaningful damage to the BA squad.

I also think giving a BA Sgt a power sword is a must. That I5 is just too good to pass up.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
The importance of the +1I cannot be overstated IMO. Now BA units can kills other MEQ before they even attack, and even if they aren't wiped out, there will be too few left to do any meaningful damage to the BA squad.

I also think giving a BA Sgt a power sword is a must. That I5 is just too good to pass up.

Agreed. A Vet Sarge with a Sword is putting 2-3 MEQ in the ground before they swing back. Not a big deal against Tacticals, but that robbing GH with CCW of 3 Attacks per model he kills, and that's before you consider what that same roll would do against Vanguard Vets, Death Co, hell, he even puts down 40+ points of Thunderwolf on average!

The key will be ensuring you always get the charge, but that isn't all that hard to arrange.

As an eldar player following with mild interest: Dem DC tho. I've been trying to see what the base points cost is on them, and haven't found it. But if comparable to last codex 22ish points for T4 3+ FnP Fearless furious charge I5 Rage monsters with jet packs. Yes, please and thank you. People were mentioning earlier about WS spam and how to deal with it, you're answer's right there. A WS can kill ~2 DC a turn after armor and FnP, and you're only going to have 5 or so WS in a list maximum. Pack in some melta on your DC to force the jink on the turn they DS, then charge next turn. Jinking will drastically reduce the dmg output of the WS, so the option is to Flat out (losing a turn of shooting) to get away, or move 12 shoot and end up assaulted. If they run, take your hidden TH/PF/Dante in the squad and go after the now abandoned WK's.

Outside of DC, I'm actually pretty disappointed in the rest of the codex. 4 melta suicide AMs is cool I suppose, but I don't see them seeing much outside of that. Cool dreads, to bad dreads aren't good. Not sure if Meph gets access to biomancy or not, but either way getting to hide in a unit is a sideways change to his durability. Sang guard are probably too expensive for what they do, Dante might be worth it if you're DS'ng a lot of Jump units. Priests getting pushed into HQ and being 0-1 for the slot was moronic, one or the other would have been fine. Will be interesting to see if the FnP from priests/Corbulo is BA only (I suspect it is) or not, would make for interesting allies if not. Hi thundrwolf Cav with BA priest on a bike.

Here's hoping you all have some hidden gems in there that aren't being released/appreciated by the leakers. As is, nothing I've seen is blowing up my skirt.

Subbed. DC are looking VERY scary. Librarian dreadnought should be awesome with new powers. Increased initiative and attacks is all dreadnoughts needed to take 'em out before they get hit back. Librarian dreadnought and DC in a Stormraven.

I'm thinking a BA captain with Angel's Wing, Veritus Vitae, and the AP2 sword would make for a pretty boss warlord. Decently punchy and survivable and good at buffing the army with double traits and good at getting a death company or a terminator unit into position via deep strike.

I'm really liking the rumors for a drop pod based BA army with deep striking DC or terminators in support. I think this army would be a great fit for a Damocles command rhino too.

 Kavish wrote:
Subbed. DC are looking VERY scary. Librarian dreadnought should be awesome with new powers. Increased initiative and attacks is all dreadnoughts needed to take 'em out before they get hit back. Librarian dreadnought and DC in a Stormraven.

Lacking grenades make me sad for the dread though..

Man, my Salamanders look like chumps compared to all the burny goodness BA tac squads can bring now. 4 template weapons in one squad is no joke (especially now that this thread has convinced me that you fire and resolve wounds for mixed template weapons all at once). I'm thinking there's no need to go with the Heavy Flamer - I would rather run 5 mans in fast laspas razorbacks. That seems like a really cute little bundle of firepower to flesh out your troops.

I'm feeling pretty meh about ASM and Vanguards, but I'm assuming BA bikes are now basically identical to vanilla marines? Running gravbikes alongside Death Company and Furiouso Dreads sounds delicious. I also really like the Sanguinary Priest as an HQ choice. I've never much cared for the cheap vanilla marine HQs, I always ended up just hiding them to avoid losing points to warlord kills. He seems like a good choice to embed in a Terminator or Sangunary Guard squad.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
Man, my Salamanders look like chumps compared to all the burny goodness BA tac squads can bring now. 4 template weapons in one squad is no joke (especially now that this thread has convinced me that you fire and resolve wounds for mixed template weapons all at once). I'm thinking there's no need to go with the Heavy Flamer - I would rather run 5 mans in fast laspas razorbacks. That seems like a really cute little bundle of firepower to flesh out your troops.

I'm feeling pretty meh about ASM and Vanguards, but I'm assuming BA bikes are now basically identical to vanilla marines? Running gravbikes alongside Death Company and Furiouso Dreads sounds delicious. I also really like the Sanguinary Priest as an HQ choice. I've never much cared for the cheap vanilla marine HQs, I always ended up just hiding them to avoid losing points to warlord kills. He seems like a good choice to embed in a Terminator or Sangunary Guard squad.

Apparently the bikes cannot have grav guns. They also don't benefit from vanilla chapter tactics that make bikes top notch.

Here's a thing. If your opponent is cool with unbound (I haven't come across anyone who is opposed to it, but I don't play power lists) just use as many elites and HQ as you want! Sure, you'll lose I5, but a sang priest in every squad? Yes please.

Grav bikers with sang priest on bike. Nice!

sang guard with Dante and sang priest with jump pack. *drool*


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aww no grav bikers. :(

If only the Chapter Master could be fielded by BA, I've always wanted to field Castellan Zargo (CM of Angels Encarmine).

Never the less anyone else think a BA Captain with the Ap2 sword Relic, the Relic Jumpack, Artificier Armor and Inferno Pistol is a solid HQ? You get 5 S5 Ap2 attacks on the charge at I6, and if he somehow doesn't kill what you charge (not gonna be stupid and charge a Bloodthirster or Swarmlord), he should be able to survive when they strike back.

You have to ask yourself what the point cost of the captain compared to Dante is at that point. Dante brings all the same stats plus some as well as bunch of other special rules.

BA bikers can have grav guns. I just saw the dex.

But can Bikers be troops with Captain help?