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You mean DC instead of ASM? Je parle Francaise en peu.
ASM have access to special weapons like meltas.
Basically you can run 5 ASM with two meltas.
That's a very good deal.

Anyone have any views on where to run Seth? Previously I had him in a razorback with an ASM, but he was pretty darned underwhelming.

Got the Codex. My jaw dropped when I got to Tycho. Had to read it, reread it, and try and find something elsewhere in the codex. I hope I'm just overlooking it, but...


TYCHO HAS NO CLOSE COMBAT WEAPON. None. No knife, no Deadman's hand, no chainsword, no power weapon... nadda, zip. He does have digital weapons, and a whole bunch of special rules to help him in close combat, but NO CLOSE COMBAT WEAPON.

I'm trying to wrap my head around this. Was it an oversight? Or does Tycho really just wade into close combat swinging Blood Song like an over sized club, gaining extra attacks with it while out numbered,+1 S when he charges, getting rerolls (especially against Orks), and his Death Company version has Fearless and Feel no Pain.

I'm not advocating that he should have some kind of second artifact for close combat, but the model comes with a knife sheathed on his thigh. It would be nice to have some kind of nod to it, or even just list "Combat Knife" that counts as an additional close combat weapon.

Oh, and another thing about Death Company Tycho that I also noticed with Lemartes- they are listed as Independent Characters, but they can only join the Death Company. Does GW even understand it's own rules? Was the idea of a upgrade character in a unit too abhorrent to them, so they had to give these characters Independent status, but then say they can only ever join a DC unit? So let's think about that for a second. If you have only 1 DC unit on the table, Tycho or Lemartes can run around by themselves, and be snipped, or join a DC unit and get a 2+ "Look Out, Sir!" roll, do the Challenge thing, and (in the case of Lemartes) buff the DC up a bit. I'm kinda surprised Astroboy isn't an IC that can only join DC as well.

Are these two things "Codex Breaking"? No, not really. A little in-congruent with the rest of the Codex for sure. Tycho has always been my favorite Blood Angels character. He represented the classic Fallen Protagonist that has a tragic, noble death, but at least finds some succor and honor in it.

Does it feel like GW just concentrates on a few aspects of a new codex, and then inexplicably... stops? Did Tycho and Lemartes get a "first pass" during the codex rewrite, and was never looked at again?

 wuestenfux wrote:
You mean DC instead of ASM? Je parle Francaise en peu.
ASM have access to special weapons like meltas.
Basically you can run 5 ASM with two meltas.
That's a very good deal.

Yeah i was thnking about DC in lieu of ASM; i was not considering 2x melta options...
i'd like the idea of specialised unit, so asm with melta is a good thing; however, it depends on who you are facing... 'cause asm is good against an heavy armored army (i'm thinking about my AM friend) but not sure against a riptide-full or carnifex-full list. On the other side, 2 melta assault can be easily shotted with a bit of luck, good positioning (or bad positioning from ba side) while every dc in the squad got S5 on charge
against a mixed fast moving list like eldar waveserpent+wraithknight (i play a lot against this type of list...) dropping melta against 'serpents on the first turn is good thing, but if they survive, mine asm are totally wasted, while a fast traveling DC seems more flexible to adapt to different situation... or i'm wrong again?

Well, I like to cover all kinds of threats in a competitive setting.
Three small ASM squads with two meltas each is a good deal.
The same goes for a Cmd squad with say three plasma guns.
Variety is key.

DC are good, but FNP only increases a regular save from 66% to
78%. That is nowhere near a 33% or 50% increase.

 Tamwulf wrote:
Got the Codex. My jaw dropped when I got to Tycho. Had to read it, reread it, and try and find something elsewhere in the codex. I hope I'm just overlooking it, but...

Tycho is really weird, he is too hybrid.
I don't want a regular Tycho to get into CC, but I have CC-abilities.
I DO want DC-Tycho to get into CC, but he lacks decent weapons.

He is really weird.

Yes Tycho is like the worst points you could spend in the book. It'd be better to just make your own captain.
2nd place has to go to blood talons. 10 points to gain shred on already s10 attacks... That's another meltagun that could be somewhere, or two melta bombs.

Or a sarge promotion!

Tycho should have at least got ap3. Going from ignoring all armour to not even ignoring 6+ is just an extreme change.
Blood talons should have granted rampage to be 1. Worth their points and 2. Still fluffy.

I wanted to hit home the point of the power the furious charge really brings to the table against T6 MCs. I played a game yesterday against Tau and had a situation where a lone regular assault marine charged a riptide. He ended up inflicting 1 unsaved wound and survived the return attacks. The riptide failed his morale and I ran him down (extra initiative bonus helped). Probable, definitely not. Awesome? Hell yes!

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I like to cover all kinds of threats in a competitive setting.
Three small ASM squads with two meltas each is a good deal.
The same goes for a Cmd squad with say three plasma guns.
Variety is key.

I would counter-intuitively have it the other way around. Command squad have no abalitive wounds, so a casualty is 5pt loss more if armed with plasma, plus with their +1a id rather they be in combat. Whilst an assault squad can put down 6 plasma shots for 125pts, placed anywhere on the board - then they don't need to get in combat as only 2 members have bp&ccw, so rapidfire isn't too bad for them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw has anyone noticed...


With the loss of the reclusiarch - BA can now only ever have 1 relic unit!

Did not realise that at all, I don't really get why the Super Chaplain was removed, it was a pretty decent HQ choice and fit the fluff really well.

I did notice this, so let's hope FW fixes this.

niv-mizzet wrote:
Yes Tycho is like the worst points you could spend in the book. It'd be better to just make your own captain.
2nd place has to go to blood talons. 10 points to gain shred on already s10 attacks... That's another meltagun that could be somewhere, or two melta bombs.

Or a sarge promotion!

Yeah, but if you get to reroll a 1 on even one of those attacks, you're probably going to kill more than 10 points. Also the DC Dread gets, what 6 attacks on the charge? You're going to roll a 1 if it's in melee for two turns. Now, granted, if you're charging vehicles or weakened squads, you're probably over-killing them.

Martel732 wrote:
DC are good, but FNP only increases a regular save from 66% to
78%. That is nowhere near a 33% or 50% increase.

sorry but... fnp is'nt rolled after regular save failed?
so far 6 unsaved wound for asm is 6 asm dead; 6 unsaved wound for dc means 4 dc death, thus increasing survivability of the squad (ok maybe % is not really correct, but for just 6 point more the fnp, rage and relentless give dc more advantages. did'nt count the 2x special weapon asm get in the new codex, btw...)

i see there are some viable options then; mostly based on "put squad on pod for fast assault with special weapons".
but what for JP equipped marines? 2-3 JP squad for fast approach?

Its because the chances of an ASM passing a save is 2/3 (66.7%) whilst a DC passing one of their saves is 2/3 + 1/3 x 1/3 which equals 77.8%. So an increase of 11.1% with fnp.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Its because the chances of an ASM passing a save is 2/3 (66.7%) whilst a DC passing one of their saves is 2/3 + 1/3 x 1/3 which equals 77.8%. So an increase of 11.1% with fnp.

Yeah, but that 11.1% is going to cause you to take 33% fewer losses to S7 or lower attacks.

Mavnas wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Its because the chances of an ASM passing a save is 2/3 (66.7%) whilst a DC passing one of their saves is 2/3 + 1/3 x 1/3 which equals 77.8%. So an increase of 11.1% with fnp.

Yeah, but that 11.1% is going to cause you to take 33% fewer losses to S7 or lower attacks.

that's my point
and mostly what kill your marine is not a single multi-melta shot but hundred of lasgun...

Here's a question: combi-flamer or a single hand flamer on Tactical Sergeants? In other words, better burning ability more attacks in CC?

 Paradigm wrote:
Here's a question: combi-flamer or a single hand flamer on Tactical Sergeants? In other words, better burning ability more attacks in CC?

It is also one-shot flamer/normal boltgun or multiple shot Hand-flamer + Wall of Death.

How much is both vs. the combi weapon? That should be the main comparison IMHO

 wuestenfux wrote:
The elite section looks quite congested:
Termies, Dreads, Cmd squad, Vanguard, Sternguard, DC.
I'd take DC in the first place.

The formation gives you an extra elite slot.

Razerous wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
Here's a question: combi-flamer or a single hand flamer on Tactical Sergeants? In other words, better burning ability more attacks in CC?

It is also one-shot flamer/normal boltgun or multiple shot Hand-flamer + Wall of Death.

How much is both vs. the combi weapon? That should be the main comparison IMHO

It's 10 points for a combi or a single Hand Flamer, so 20 for two. The thing is, your only realistically going to be firing a flamer of any kind once or twice anyway, so I'm not sure how much the one shot nature is a hinderance, and also if you're out of template range then a bolter I'd better than nothing. WOD is also not something I'm too worried about, if things go as planned I'll be charging more than being charged.

So at this point I'm leaning towards Combi.

Not sure how sanguinary guard are bad. Theyre appropriately costed for terminators but trade a 5++ for jump packs. The added mobility means that cover is easy to find, and throwing a priest into the mix increases their durability even more.

Cant kill monsters? I had a 5 man unit with a priest take on a 2 man squad of dakkafexs and come out on top. Str5 on the charge (or 6 with axes) means that anything below t7 is meat.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Not sure how sanguinary guard are bad. Theyre appropriately costed for terminators but trade a 5++ for jump packs. The added mobility means that cover is easy to find, and throwing a priest into the mix increases their durability even more.

Cant kill monsters? I had a 5 man unit with a priest take on a 2 man squad of dakkafexs and come out on top. Str5 on the charge (or 6 with axes) means that anything below t7 is meat.

Throw in the banner on a 10 man squad and you have 40 attacks on the charge which you should get off due to the jump packs, with a priest this squad is gonna mince most units. Sanguinary Guard just seem like an auto include to me.

Yeah, too much math hammer going on in here as proof that a unit is bad.

The amount of games I have played where the rules of probability have been totally discarded by the dice makes me ignore it to a certain extent.

Also, if my sang guard are drawing the enemies wrath then so be it, my death company and dreadnaught are going to be hitting their lines, along with tactical and scout squads who are very good at combat in their own right.

In fact, yeah, I would be happy if my sang guard didn't kill a singly thing if they are making 400pts+ of the enemy fire at them for a turn or two, or manoeuvre their whole army around avoiding them. And if they aren't shooting at them as they are worried about my DC, then my sang guard will clear up on most things they assault.

each-uisge wrote:

Mavnas wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Its because the chances of an ASM passing a save is 2/3 (66.7%) whilst a DC passing one of their saves is 2/3 + 1/3 x 1/3 which equals 77.8%. So an increase of 11.1% with fnp.

Yeah, but that 11.1% is going to cause you to take 33% fewer losses to S7 or lower attacks.

that's my point
and mostly what kill your marine is not a single multi-melta shot but hundred of lasgun...

Both points also true.

Thing is the majority of BA players have been saying Sang Guard needed a 7 to 8 pt decrease to be effective. We have got just that. We shouldn't discount it now that DC jps got even cheaper than we expected.

If you run a full 10man SG squad with 2 fists and priest you are looking at 425pts. A lot of points, but they will be able to decimate much more than termis due to their speed and have better durability due to FNP against ap3 or worse. If also running a big 'shoot me, shoot me' target, such as a knight, 2-3 vindis, 2-3 flamestorm baals or a typhon, those anti-tank shots probably won't be mostly flying at the SG.

HandofMars wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
The elite section looks quite congested:
Termies, Dreads, Cmd squad, Vanguard, Sternguard, DC.
I'd take DC in the first place.

The formation gives you an extra elite slot.

Atm, I think I'll not need a fourth elite slot.
Two times ten DC Marines is a good starting point.

Is the frag cannon the same?

Yes, frag cannon still rocks.

 Carnage43 wrote:
The relics are mediocre to poor. The sword is over priced

Wat...?