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Martel732 wrote:
I'm still not sold on BA as a drop list at all.

No, neither am I. Reminds me of all those DoA (Dead on Arrival) lists I used to see when the 5th ed codex was released.

I've spent £0 on my Blood Angels since the release, and after seeing the Necron codex it's going to continue to be £0 unless a formation or detachment changes that

 th3maninblak wrote:

The Deer Hunter wrote:
Just to come back to BA.
Someone put Gk and Ba on the same level, but I think that an army that can get quite easily 15+ warp charges, has an advantage BA cannot match.
Chaos marines or DA, have both a codex very similar to BA, but they have Telepathy (and more WC CSM). Invisibility or Shroud could make the difference, while BA have no means to get Ignore cover(aside from template weapons or a lucky dice on Divination).
Heldrake could do a mess of a DC, our best unit.
SoB, Darkeldar, and maybe Orks are our equal.

Except helldrakes arent the terror they once were, since they now have firing arcs. Not sure why we need psychic death stars, or invisibility, as our own psychic powers are good enough if we want to go that route. Lost of armies get by with no ignores cover shenanigans, and that being said the frag cannon is awesome as always for that. The fact that you think orks are bad shows me you've been out of the loop for a while.

Tell me, what kind of list are you playing? Or have you actually not played the new codex yet?

heldrake is no longer the OP unit it was, but imo is still effective against an army like BA. BTW, I were not saying that CSM is a codex definetively more powerful than BA, but that is not weaker.
About Orks, I added a maybe before them, since I think that it's a very good codex even though I haven't had yet the opportunity to play against.

I played the new codex, but the feeling is that none of the units could stand outside of fluffy game, and thats why I'm searching a way to close the gap

The Deer Hunter wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:

The Deer Hunter wrote:
Just to come back to BA.
Someone put Gk and Ba on the same level, but I think that an army that can get quite easily 15+ warp charges, has an advantage BA cannot match.
Chaos marines or DA, have both a codex very similar to BA, but they have Telepathy (and more WC CSM). Invisibility or Shroud could make the difference, while BA have no means to get Ignore cover(aside from template weapons or a lucky dice on Divination).
Heldrake could do a mess of a DC, our best unit.
SoB, Darkeldar, and maybe Orks are our equal.

Except helldrakes arent the terror they once were, since they now have firing arcs. Not sure why we need psychic death stars, or invisibility, as our own psychic powers are good enough if we want to go that route. Lost of armies get by with no ignores cover shenanigans, and that being said the frag cannon is awesome as always for that. The fact that you think orks are bad shows me you've been out of the loop for a while.

Tell me, what kind of list are you playing? Or have you actually not played the new codex yet?

heldrake is no longer the OP unit it was, but imo is still effective against an army like BA. BTW, I were not saying that CSM is a codex definetively more powerful than BA, but that is not weaker.
About Orks, I added a maybe before them, since I think that it's a very good codex even though I haven't had yet the opportunity to play against.

I played the new codex, but the feeling is that none of the units could stand outside of fluffy game, and thats why I'm searching a way to close the gap

None of the units? Have you tried Jump Pack Death Company? They're very efficent overall.
And in the end, Blood Angels are still Space Marines. And Tactcial Squads or Sternguard for example are hardly a fluffy-games-only option.

Bartali wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm still not sold on BA as a drop list at all.

No, neither am I. Reminds me of all those DoA (Dead on Arrival) lists I used to see when the 5th ed codex was released.

I've spent £0 on my Blood Angels since the release, and after seeing the Necron codex it's going to continue to be £0 unless a formation or detachment changes that

I bought the new tactical kits to use as Sternguards.

I dont think i ever actually lost to a heldrake heavy chaos army, even with the 5th ed book.

Also, sanguinary guard are all but immune to them, and we can outmaneuver their lanes of fire very easily.

Im not trying to say that Blood Angels are top tier. Im trying to say theyre upper/middle of the pack.

The Sanguinary Guard can take the hits well, but most of our army is still 3+ armor and now that our Troops aren't as mobile, they will be easy targets.
The Drake has been a problem for me, not sure how you've manage to ignore the perfect unit to kill Marines.

competitively, BA armies should look towards bikes. you get T5, (FnP vs str8) 4+jink, relentless, HoW, and some decent shooting for a good price. MSU assault oriented I feel is the best way to go. When you have 2-3 7 man bike units with grav weaponry, 2 7 man DC units, a sang guard unit, and drop poding melta marines and or heavy flamer tacs/fragioso's/lib dreads (gotta take the pick, not gonna fit all of that into one list unfortunately, I dislike dreadnoughts, so I go for infantry based) that is a lot of threats to take out, not only that, but you can move 12" then charge with most. so far its worked the best for me. Dante is a good buy strong, fast, and durable with his sang guard body guard.



Honestly I feel like we have a really good dex, want AV 13 spam? we can do it, fast too, and still bring pyschic powers with it.

want the power drop pod? sure thing bud, tacs for anti-horde, stern for those "that must die" units, ASM for low point tank hunters.

The Blood Angels codex seems to be able to play in very varied ways and altough there's the obvious rules encouragement towards CC, there's not a single playstyle that steps forward.
Hard to say wether this is good versatility or lack of dedication.

But nontheless, the codex offers different ways of playing and that's pretty great.

 soomemafia wrote:
The Blood Angels codex seems to be able to play in very varied ways and altough there's the obvious rules encouragement towards CC, there's not a single playstyle that steps forward.
Hard to say wether this is good versatility or lack of dedication.

But nontheless, the codex offers different ways of playing and that's pretty great.

I'd agree with that. I just wish there was at least one power choice.

There is. It's called all JP DC with stormravens and Drop pod Furiosos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ps: I've had my thunderwolf Death Star charged by DC and they where wiped out. All they need is a few power fists and it's over.

I think a point should be made, that every army is stronger and weaker than another, if you look at only one aspect of it. I feel like there are strong builds in the codex. I face White Scars with a Knight Ally on a regular basis. I feel they can be handled, and they're one of the best armies I've ever faced in any edition of the game. Complete with Smash-Face and Khan.

BA are a... more subtle... codex than the others. MSU seems to be our strength. All parts must come together, instead of spam. They're right up my alley these days, and I think I'm going to very much enjoy playing them in a competitive environment.

Rather than focussing on the weakness relative to others, see their strengths. They are there, and they are powerful. Look to what we have that is unique, and build lists from those strengths to counter your opponents.


For example, Fast Vindicators are the best answer to TWC, and taking one or two in most lists is a no-brainer for me. Comparing TWC to JP DC in an arena isn't really what I'd do, because I wouldn't pit them against each other.

 Kavish wrote:
There is. It's called all JP DC with stormravens and Drop pod Furiosos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ps: I've had my thunderwolf Death Star charged by DC and they where wiped out. All they need is a few power fists and it's over.

Don't let them charge; it's in beating BA 101.

If BA can't charge, they generally can't win. That makes shutting down the BA conceptually quite simple compared to AV 12 skimmer spam or Riptides.

Martel732 is to Pessimism as Bob Ross is to Happy Little Bushes. Once you accept that, his posts become easier to understand.

Compared facing BA to SW. Even if you charge SW, you will probably lose. If you charge BA, you completely neuter them. If it's BA tactical squads, practically any troop will do.

Well, given that BA would hit harder than SW, on a turn they charge, I don't see that as being the case. They get equal attacks, hypothetically, but BA's wound on 3's instead of 4's.

Given that taking the BSF instead of a CAD would make sense against SW, the extra Initiative would allow BA's to strike first in most combats, further reducing the number of "extra" countercharge attacks that SW would receive, yes? Again, focussing on the strength rather than weakness. Charging with tacticals isn't typically the ideal situation, they're fire support, unless they're assault support for another unit.

Isn't this supposed to be tactics that BA would be successful with, not BA sucks vs such and such a Codex thread?

You are still assuming that you get the charge off. The SW, through superior firepower, can make you come to them, allowing the TWC to charge the BA, neutering all the bonuses. There's a reason I haven't lost to another BA list since early 5th ed. I don't let them get charges off.

Lulz, ok, Space Wolves are the greatest thing since sliced bread, and BA's might as well melt their minis down now, because charges will never occur... and they can't bring guns of their own to shoot with.

Blood Angels only get chainswords. No Fast Razorbacks. No Fast Vindis. No Podded Dreads. No Podded Assault Squads. They MUST charge headlong into the storm of bullets being thrown their way. No other option. No other tactic. Definately no way to disable enemy shooting through clever play and relatively better mobility.

Just screwed. Long live Space Wolves!

 greatbigtree wrote:
Lulz, ok, Space Wolves are the greatest thing since sliced bread, and BA's might as well melt their minis down now, because charges will never occur... and they can't bring guns of their own to shoot with.

Blood Angels only get chainswords. No Fast Razorbacks. No Fast Vindis. No Podded Dreads. No Podded Assault Squads. They MUST charge headlong into the storm of bullets being thrown their way. No other option. No other tactic. Definately no way to disable enemy shooting through clever play and relatively better mobility.

Just screwed. Long live Space Wolves!

If I were able to list tailor for SW, I would say the fast vindicator would be a go-to solution. However, I don't have that luxury. Podded assault squads only play into their hands. The dreadnoughts and and razorbacks are a thing, but the razors wont' last long against long fangs. It's very hard for BA to game against Riptides, WS, and TWC.

"because charges will never occur."

Very few if the SW player is good.

Martel732 wrote:
You are still assuming that you get the charge off. The SW, through superior firepower, can make you come to them, allowing the TWC to charge the BA, neutering all the bonuses. There's a reason I haven't lost to another BA list since early 5th ed. I don't let them get charges off.

Well if you accompany your assault units with the Angel Fury Spearhead then you can make sure that you get the charge no problem. Sure there is a risk that the Stormravens won't come in and there a chance you could lose due to bad reserve rolls but it still a really powerful option in my opinion for a 2000 point list. I took a list the other day along with DC and a DC dreadnought in drop pods and a further empty drop pod and I beat a guard player. He even bubble wrapped his tanks and I still won comfortably.

My MSU jumper list has been tearing people apart recently. I think that may definitely be a strong way to play. When you have 2 death company squads and a sanguinary guard squad hopping around the table, along with 2x5 close combat scouts threatening people with melta bombs and baal preds torrenting things then your opponents shooting options become more awkward.

Oh, and the fragnought in your opponents back field makes things funny as well.

Even against shooting armies its not difficult to make them shoot the wrong thing just once and make it into combat.

Im glad we got some positive attitudes in this thread!

Like I said earlier in the thread a friend of mine came 13th place at the Caledonian,which is the biggest tournament in the UK, using this list.

Flesh Tearers Strike Force? (6 fast attack slots)

Dante
Priest, jump pack, veritas vitae

9 sanguinary guard, 2 fists, chapter banner.

10 tactical marines, melta heavy flamer drop pod x 2

5 Assualt marines melta, melta, combi melta, pod. X 5

Allies iron hands

Chapter master, power fist, shield eternal, bike.

5 x scouts

Brutal list, his only loss all weekend was against Eldar in the Relic, which he lost because of a poor run roll that stopped him from being able to surround the Relic well enough to be incontestable.

PanzerLeader wrote:
Martel732 is to Pessimism as Bob Ross is to Happy Little Bushes. Once you accept that, his posts become easier to understand.

Bit he's also right. BA assault units are heavily reliant on getting the charge, and are significantly powered down in the subsquent assault phases or if they don't get the charge in the first place.

Thunderwolf Cav and Wraiths tend to have more 'always on' stuff as opposed to DC/SG

 DarthOvious wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You are still assuming that you get the charge off. The SW, through superior firepower, can make you come to them, allowing the TWC to charge the BA, neutering all the bonuses. There's a reason I haven't lost to another BA list since early 5th ed. I don't let them get charges off.

Well if you accompany your assault units with the Angel Fury Spearhead then you can make sure that you get the charge no problem. Sure there is a risk that the Stormravens won't come in and there a chance you could lose due to bad reserve rolls but it still a really powerful option in my opinion for a 2000 point list. I took a list the other day along with DC and a DC dreadnought in drop pods and a further empty drop pod and I beat a guard player. He even bubble wrapped his tanks and I still won comfortably.

It just seems unreliable and not very good against versatile opponents.

Bartali wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:
Martel732 is to Pessimism as Bob Ross is to Happy Little Bushes. Once you accept that, his posts become easier to understand.

Bit he's also right. BA assault units are heavily reliant on getting the charge, and are significantly powered down in the subsquent assault phases or if they don't get the charge in the first place.

Thunderwolf Cav and Wraiths tend to have more 'always on' stuff as opposed to DC/SG

I get that. But BA also have great mobility and can use that to set up charges, especially when playing MSU. Its about forcing choices on an opponent and the speed in the BA dex makes it much easier to bait the opponent into the wrong decision than the SW or Necron codex does.

The MSU approach helps, but counting on enemy mistakes is a problem sometimes. There's no way to bait Eldar or Tau. They are melting your face off until you stop them.

The decision tree for movement against BA is actually pretty simple, though. Especially since many of these proposed lists are going to be massively outgunned.

Eldercaveman wrote:
Like I said earlier in the thread a friend of mine came 13th place at the Caledonian,which is the biggest tournament in the UK, using this list.

Flesh Tearers Strike Force? (6 fast attack slots)

Dante
Priest, jump pack, veritas vitae

9 sanguinary guard, 2 fists, chapter banner.

10 tactical marines, melta heavy flamer drop pod x 2

5 Assualt marines melta, melta, combi melta, pod. X 5

Allies iron hands

Chapter master, power fist, shield eternal, bike.

5 x scouts

Brutal list, his only loss all weekend was against Eldar in the Relic, which he lost because of a poor run roll that stopped him from being able to surround the Relic well enough to be incontestable.

That sounds like a pretty cool list actually. 7 pods is no joke in objectives games, using the first wave as an alpha stoke and secondary waves to contest objectives/support where needed. Jump packs and a bike are both highly mobile and scouts to, I assume, sit on the home objective.

I think BA are up there in terms of pod lists, it's difficult to gauge how we compare to other pod lists, especially since there's such a spectrum in C:SM, really the difference is that BA need support from jump units to make a pod list work, same with the mechanised builds to, we really a re a hybrid sort of dex which requires a large amount of joined up thinking in terms of deployment and wtarget lrioritisation.

D

So, ive been toying around with a list that basically puts all the cheese i can think of together into one BA army. I have about $150 to spend on it before i would have it build, so i wanted to bounce it off of you all before i pulled the trigger.

LoW
-dante

HQ
-priest
Power sword
Bolt pistol
Angels wing

Elites
-10x death co
Jump packs
2 swords
1 fist

-10x death co
Jump packs
2 swords
1 fist

-5x sanguinary guard
Infernus pistol
Power fist
Chapter banner

-furioso dread
Frag cannon
Heavy flamer
Pod

Troops
-5x scouts
Shanks
Melta bomb

-5x scouts
Shanks
Melta bomb

Fast attack
-5x assault marines
2x melta
Combi
Pod

-5x assault marines
2x melta
Combi
Pod

Heavy support
-storm raven
Lascannon
Multi melta
Hurricane bolters

1846

I like zero Ravens or two Ravens, personally. I'd go for two Ravens with Dante.

On a side note: I'm beginning to think that the typhoon launcher is the better choice with the nerf to melta on the Stormraven.

Hmm... i hadnt thought of a 2nd raven. Dropping the 2 asm squads would free up exactly enough points for a 2nd raven.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Hmm... i hadnt thought of a 2nd raven. Dropping the 2 asm squads would free up exactly enough points for a 2nd raven.

What do you think about typhoon vs MM?