Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ive yet to try Sanguinary Guard yet, do you think just 5 in the unit will be enough?

Not sure, to be honest. With 10, I can justify a priest and get some protection against plasma.

Martel732 wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You are still assuming that you get the charge off. The SW, through superior firepower, can make you come to them, allowing the TWC to charge the BA, neutering all the bonuses. There's a reason I haven't lost to another BA list since early 5th ed. I don't let them get charges off.

Well if you accompany your assault units with the Angel Fury Spearhead then you can make sure that you get the charge no problem. Sure there is a risk that the Stormravens won't come in and there a chance you could lose due to bad reserve rolls but it still a really powerful option in my opinion for a 2000 point list. I took a list the other day along with DC and a DC dreadnought in drop pods and a further empty drop pod and I beat a guard player. He even bubble wrapped his tanks and I still won comfortably.

It just seems unreliable and not very good against versatile opponents.

I agree the Stormravens need to be differently equipped with different weapons but it is possible. You can make a Stormraven to combat tanks or make one to combat infantry etc.

I was talking about the tac squads. The triple Stormraven is fine. But there are plenty of opponents where assaulting with tac squads just fails.

Martel732 wrote:
I was talking about the tac squads. The triple Stormraven is fine. But there are plenty of opponents where assaulting with tac squads just fails.

Well I have the DC and DC Dreadnought for the assault part. The Tacticals I will use for shooting. I have one tact squad kitted up with 3 flamer weapons. I think I'll make one up with 3 meltas as well for anti-tank. In my game against Guard I still had 22 tactical squads guys left along with the 3 ravens and one drop pod. I didn't actually need to assault with the tacs much, they fine enough as they are with shooting. The DC, Dreadnought and ravens were enough to take out the tanks and the ravens also took out a lot of infantry too.

Martel732 wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Hmm... i hadnt thought of a 2nd raven. Dropping the 2 asm squads would free up exactly enough points for a 2nd raven.

What do you think about typhoon vs MM?

For 25 points i dont think its worth it, unless your meta is filled to the brim with wave serpents. In that case 2 shots at str8 gives them more of a chance to fail those jinks, and with serpent shields up theyll rarely suffer penetrating hits from multi meltas anyways. Same goes for dark eldar, i suppose.

But the multi melta+lascannon loadout (always with hurricanes) hasnt failed me yet, honestly. Im concerned with a fairly low model count, though. Even with my reserves coming in reliably on turn 2.

Hmmmm

The mentioning of bikes a page or 2 ago has me wanting to experiment with some.... I have about 30 bikes sitting there unpainted from when I was going to make a white scars chapter of some sort...maybe Ill kit out a squad with grav and paint them BA.....

 th3maninblak wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Hmm... i hadnt thought of a 2nd raven. Dropping the 2 asm squads would free up exactly enough points for a 2nd raven.

What do you think about typhoon vs MM?

For 25 points i dont think its worth it, unless your meta is filled to the brim with wave serpents. In that case 2 shots at str8 gives them more of a chance to fail those jinks, and with serpent shields up theyll rarely suffer penetrating hits from multi meltas anyways. Same goes for dark eldar, i suppose.

But the multi melta+lascannon loadout (always with hurricanes) hasnt failed me yet, honestly. Im concerned with a fairly low model count, though. Even with my reserves coming in reliably on turn 2.

I equip mine with Hurricanes too. I find it relatively easy to get within 12" of a squad for those double tapping shots. Also if you're firing at a tank then you can always fire two of the missiles along with the Lascannon & Multi-Melta instead. As I'm running 3 of them, my thoughts are that I equip one of them with a Plasma Cannon and Heavy Bolter instead in order to take care of infantry.

Yeah hurricanes are a must. Averaging 5-6 wounds on MEQs is pretty solid. And 4 str8+ shots will do a number on just about anything.

Also as for sanguinary guard, theyve become a main stay in my lists no matter what point value or number. I find that 5 dudes with a priest is just fine. A fist or two, an inferno pistol and a chapter banner clocks in at just over 200 points, and with a decently equipped priest will almost always make their points back and then some.

There is another advantage of the typhoon: it's very easy to position the Stormraven the turn it comes in, because you can fire 6 shots with a range of 48". You aren't even tempted to get withing 12".

I still prefer the MM TLAsC variation. It is statistically more likely to strip hull points off everything except AV13 (which is equal to the TLLC). No explodes is the tradeoff though. Most flyers don't have many hull points and more wounds is better anyway. I magnetized my sponsons so I can add them if I have the points. The TML is cool, but it ain't cheap. It does sync well with the TLLC though.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Yeah hurricanes are a must. Averaging 5-6 wounds on MEQs is pretty solid. And 4 str8+ shots will do a number on just about anything.

Also as for sanguinary guard, theyve become a main stay in my lists no matter what point value or number. I find that 5 dudes with a priest is just fine. A fist or two, an inferno pistol and a chapter banner clocks in at just over 200 points, and with a decently equipped priest will almost always make their points back and then some.

I'm using DC in drop pods along with mine because I get the assault when I come in. I've only played the one game with it so far but I was pleasantly pleased with how it worked. Of course the risk is you could fail your re-rollable reserve roll for the formation but I'll stick with it for just now. I might see about getting a comms relay which I believe is the upgrade with the aegis defence line that gives you +1 to your reserve rolls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
There is another advantage of the typhoon: it's very easy to position the Stormraven the turn it comes in, because you can fire 6 shots with a range of 48". You aren't even tempted to get withing 12".

Indeed however the Multi_melta does get the extra dice for armour penetration which is really useful against AV14 vehicles. It's swings and roundabouts really but I do encourage using different loadouts on the ravens. I think it's a good thing to have variety in order to cover you bases.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I still prefer the MM TLAsC variation. It is statistically more likely to strip hull points off everything except AV13 (which is equal to the TLLC). No explodes is the tradeoff though. Most flyers don't have many hull points and more wounds is better anyway. I magnetized my sponsons so I can add them if I have the points. The TML is cool, but it ain't cheap. It does sync well with the TLLC though.

Can I ask how AV12 works out with the math? Does the Typhoon do better in that instance. The reason I ask is because doing more glancing and penetrating hits against a Wave Serpent would be a good thing if your meta just so happens to have a lot of Eldar in it.

Not sure on the math, but a 6 with an assault cannon to pen against av12 is an auto pen. I think that av13+ is lascannon territory though.

I'm talking assault cannon/typhoon launcher.

I find the basic Typhoon with Heavy Bolters to be a great Mid-Long Gange Multi-Tasker.
Of course the question come up all the Time "What About AV12/13/14?" That is wat Plasma and Melta-Armed Sternguard are for.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Not sure on the math, but a 6 with an assault cannon to pen against av12 is an auto pen. I think that av13+ is lascannon territory though.

Certainly a Lascannon is great for AV13+ as well as the Multi-Melta but we all know how many Wave Serpents there are out there getting on everybody's nerves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm talking assault cannon/typhoon launcher.

I actually thought you were talking about the Typhoon and the 4 Sky Hammer missiles. Although I understand that a flyer can only fire 4 weapons a turn, 5 if you have machine spirit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:
I find the basic Typhoon with Heavy Bolters to be a great Mid-Long Gange Multi-Tasker.
Of course the question come up all the Time "What About AV12/13/14?" That is wat Plasma and Melta-Armed Sternguard are for.

Certainly, as long as your list has something to deal with AV14 then you're OK.

The beauty about the 3 Stormraven list is that the assault units you take with it can be the ones to take care of AV14 since they get to charge as soon as they come in without scattering. A couple of Powerfists on the Death Company and there you have 8 S9 attacks going for whatever target you choose. Even AV14 is going to take quite a beating off that.

 Anpu42 wrote:
I find the basic Typhoon with Heavy Bolters to be a great Mid-Long Gange Multi-Tasker.
Of course the question come up all the Time "What About AV12/13/14?" That is wat Plasma and Melta-Armed Sternguard are for.

I'm finding that naked Sternguard are the most point efficient.

"I actually thought you were talking about the Typhoon and the 4 Sky Hammer missiles. Although I understand that a flyer can only fire 4 weapons a turn, 5 if you have machine spirit."

Turn one, fire typhoon and all missiles from long range after moving onto board a minimal distance. Turn two, determine best target for AC/Typhoon/sponson combo.

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
I find the basic Typhoon with Heavy Bolters to be a great Mid-Long Gange Multi-Tasker.
Of course the question come up all the Time "What About AV12/13/14?" That is wat Plasma and Melta-Armed Sternguard are for.

I'm finding that naked Sternguard are the most point efficient.

"I actually thought you were talking about the Typhoon and the 4 Sky Hammer missiles. Although I understand that a flyer can only fire 4 weapons a turn, 5 if you have machine spirit."

Turn one, fire typhoon and all missiles from long range after moving onto board a minimal distance. Turn two, determine best target for AC/Typhoon/sponson combo.

There is always the formation that gives your Sternguard and Vanguard free Combi's and Power Weapons. I actually still think the Vanguard are useful. You can equip them with Storm Shields and they can be made a 10 man unit. Although if you're playing MSU then perhaps multiple Command Squads with storm shields may be a better option.

I might equip one of my Stormravens as you've suggested and give it a whirl. I'll only be shooting the 5 missiles each when I come in but 15 S8 missile shots sounds quite scary actually.

 DarthOvious wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
I find the basic Typhoon with Heavy Bolters to be a great Mid-Long Gange Multi-Tasker.
Of course the question come up all the Time "What About AV12/13/14?" That is wat Plasma and Melta-Armed Sternguard are for.

I'm finding that naked Sternguard are the most point efficient.

"I actually thought you were talking about the Typhoon and the 4 Sky Hammer missiles. Although I understand that a flyer can only fire 4 weapons a turn, 5 if you have machine spirit."

Turn one, fire typhoon and all missiles from long range after moving onto board a minimal distance. Turn two, determine best target for AC/Typhoon/sponson combo.

There is always the formation that gives your Sternguard and Vanguard free Combi's and Power Weapons. I actually still think the Vanguard are useful. You can equip them with Storm Shields and they can be made a 10 man unit. Although if you're playing MSU then perhaps multiple Command Squads with storm shields may be a better option.

I might equip one of my Stormravens as you've suggested and give it a whirl. I'll only be shooting the 5 missiles each when I come in but 15 S8 missile shots sounds quite scary actually.

That is the one I have been looking at, I just have to grab about 20 new Vanguard Vets to build it the way I want.

 DarthOvious wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
I find the basic Typhoon with Heavy Bolters to be a great Mid-Long Gange Multi-Tasker.
Of course the question come up all the Time "What About AV12/13/14?" That is wat Plasma and Melta-Armed Sternguard are for.

I'm finding that naked Sternguard are the most point efficient.

"I actually thought you were talking about the Typhoon and the 4 Sky Hammer missiles. Although I understand that a flyer can only fire 4 weapons a turn, 5 if you have machine spirit."

Turn one, fire typhoon and all missiles from long range after moving onto board a minimal distance. Turn two, determine best target for AC/Typhoon/sponson combo.

There is always the formation that gives your Sternguard and Vanguard free Combi's and Power Weapons. I actually still think the Vanguard are useful. You can equip them with Storm Shields and they can be made a 10 man unit. Although if you're playing MSU then perhaps multiple Command Squads with storm shields may be a better option.

I might equip one of my Stormravens as you've suggested and give it a whirl. I'll only be shooting the 5 missiles each when I come in but 15 S8 missile shots sounds quite scary actually.

Typhoon + 4 onboard missles = 6 shots.

Martel732 wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
I find the basic Typhoon with Heavy Bolters to be a great Mid-Long Gange Multi-Tasker.
Of course the question come up all the Time "What About AV12/13/14?" That is wat Plasma and Melta-Armed Sternguard are for.

I'm finding that naked Sternguard are the most point efficient.

"I actually thought you were talking about the Typhoon and the 4 Sky Hammer missiles. Although I understand that a flyer can only fire 4 weapons a turn, 5 if you have machine spirit."

Turn one, fire typhoon and all missiles from long range after moving onto board a minimal distance. Turn two, determine best target for AC/Typhoon/sponson combo.

There is always the formation that gives your Sternguard and Vanguard free Combi's and Power Weapons. I actually still think the Vanguard are useful. You can equip them with Storm Shields and they can be made a 10 man unit. Although if you're playing MSU then perhaps multiple Command Squads with storm shields may be a better option.

I might equip one of my Stormravens as you've suggested and give it a whirl. I'll only be shooting the 5 missiles each when I come in but 15 S8 missile shots sounds quite scary actually.

Typhoon + 4 onboard missles = 6 shots.

I know but I will only be able to fire 5 weapons first turn I come in. My Stormravens will be moving up the board full distance. This means I can only fire 4 weapons + 1 for power of the machine spirit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
I find the basic Typhoon with Heavy Bolters to be a great Mid-Long Gange Multi-Tasker.
Of course the question come up all the Time "What About AV12/13/14?" That is wat Plasma and Melta-Armed Sternguard are for.

I'm finding that naked Sternguard are the most point efficient.

"I actually thought you were talking about the Typhoon and the 4 Sky Hammer missiles. Although I understand that a flyer can only fire 4 weapons a turn, 5 if you have machine spirit."

Turn one, fire typhoon and all missiles from long range after moving onto board a minimal distance. Turn two, determine best target for AC/Typhoon/sponson combo.

There is always the formation that gives your Sternguard and Vanguard free Combi's and Power Weapons. I actually still think the Vanguard are useful. You can equip them with Storm Shields and they can be made a 10 man unit. Although if you're playing MSU then perhaps multiple Command Squads with storm shields may be a better option.

I might equip one of my Stormravens as you've suggested and give it a whirl. I'll only be shooting the 5 missiles each when I come in but 15 S8 missile shots sounds quite scary actually.

That is the one I have been looking at, I just have to grab about 20 new Vanguard Vets to build it the way I want.

As a suggestion Grey Knights are good for all the power weapons you're going to need. Luckily enough I already have Grey Knights and I have some weapons left that I can use. A suggestion giving to me was to use halbards as lances so when they charge they will have S6 Ap3. That was a suggestion to use along side my Stormraven formation although I don't think I am going to run them together since I need to wait for the vets from turn 2 onwards while on the other hand I can get pods in on the first turn.

As for any Storm Sheilds the Blood Angel Terminator kit is actually fairly suitable. The hand bits for the shield actually come separately so they are not there to begin with. As for the Terminators you can make them lightning claw termies instead or perhaps make some characters out of them.

For Combi-Weapons Forge World actually do some good sets where you get 5 of each type (flamer, melta & plasma). So there a good start if you're not looking for combi-gravs.

Yeah the FW combo kit is great. I'm currently building 15 Sternguard, all magnetised, so I can run them with either a choice of combo weapon or just a special ammo bolter. Plus I have 5 of the monopose Stern guard, of which I magnetised the combi guy, and two others.

Magnetising can be a pain but it's sooo worth it.

D

"I know but I will only be able to fire 5 weapons first turn I come in. My Stormravens will be moving up the board full distance. This means I can only fire 4 weapons + 1 for power of the machine spirit.

Yes, 5 weapons that yield 6 shots.

Well, tied white scars today in the league im in. Pretty typical tournament grav spam with dual thunderfire cannons. And I was even using what I would consider a sub optimal list =p

Good job man!

Would you like to post your list here? And his if you remember it.

My list

LoW
-Dante

HQ
-Sanguinary priest
Power sword
Bolt pistol
Jump pack

Elites
-8x Death Company
2x power sword
Power fist
Jump packs

-8x sanguinary guard
2x inferno pistols
2x axes
2x fists
Chapter banner

-command squad
3x melta guns
Jump packs

Troops
-10x tac marines
Melta gun
combi melta
Heavy flamer
Drop pod

-5x scouts
Combat blades

Fast attack
-5x assault marines
2x melta
Combi melta

-5x assault marines
2x melta
combi melta

-5x assault marines
2x flamer

Heavy support
-stormraven gunship
Lascannon
Multi melta
Hurricane bolters

This list was designed to dismantle mechanized forces and to rip knights in half in a single turn. There are 11 accurately deep striking melta weapons in this list, with 9 of them being on platforms that reliably come in on turn 2 and only scatter d6. That being said, white scars dont really care about all your meltas, so i knew i would be fighting uphill. Heres his approximate list.

White scars with Red Hunters allies.

HQ
-khan
Moondrakken

-chapter master
Artificer armor
Bike
Shield eternal
power fist

-Command squad
Bikes
Apothecary
4x melta guns

Elites
-5x legion of the damned
melta
combi melta
multi melta

Troops
-5x bikes
2x grav
Combi grav

-5x bikes
2x grav
Combi grav

-5x scouts
Bolters

Heavy support
-2x thunderfire cannon

Red hunters allied detachment
HQ
-chapter master
Bike
Storm shield
Artificer armor
Power fist
Auspex

Troops
-5x bikes
2x grav
combi grav

Fast attack
-3x attack bikes
multi meltas

Quick question. Which is more beneficial on a lvl 2 Librarian? The Force Sword or Valour's Edge? Most commonly cast power would be Quickening and he is with atleast four other sources of AP3 and two Unweildy AP2 users. Idea is for him and his squad to take on MEQ or TEQ if it appears or take on Challenges. The Instant Death is useful against big opponents but with a FNP buff, the Quickening buff, the WS buff and the rest of the unit is it worth putting the Edge on the more fragile Priest instead and miss out on AP2 in Challenges?

If you have the points, valors edge

I'm not sure putting the ap2 sword on a model with no access to an invulnerable save is worth it. I can see you're going for a Libby with the Sang Guard, but I think my preferred load out for a librarian is termie armour, SS and the funky staff. +2 S makes it easier to wound, quickening gives you a weight of attacks advantage and force will ID anything without ET, plus the reroll 1 in psychic tests from the staff.

Obviously this means taking a termie squad and possibly a transport over the Sang guard, so overall it's probably less effective for the list.

It's a real kicker having Priests as HQ choices as the perfect loadout would be SS and Valours edge on a captain, Libby to buff with quickening and Priest for FnP.

D

I've been looking at the Defenders of the Cathedrium formation in the Exterminartus book, and thinking about using it.

Basically it gives everything in the formation Counter Attack and Stubborn, and you have to take an assault squad, furioso, 2 tac squads, a death company squad and a terminator squad.

I reckon this is a pretty good baseline for an army and can come in around 1000 points, add to this a Baal Strike force with 2 scout squads and fill the rest with Dante, Captain ap2 sponge, priest and a big squad of Sang guard.

This give you a some decent home objective holders or the option to outflank later in the game, tac marines with the problem of getting assaulted for dsing in your opponents deployment zone mitigated (I'm thinking kitting them out with H Flamer, Flamer and Hand Flamer, this combined with the counter attack rule might deter people charging them in the first place, which means you get to charge for the S5 goodness)

The tac terminators aren't the best choice, but on a personal note I've interested in getting some use out of then as I've painting up a squad.

D