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thedarkavenger wrote: Okay. The rules for the Deceiver have been leaked. It's pretty terrible. No armour, and the only differences between it and a normal Verminlord's profile is +1T and W.
You literally never have a good opinion about anything do you?
Debating him is pointless, as once he forms an opinion he will not let go of it, no matter how much evidence you throw at him.
The fact that this is the skaven super character and it's just about adequate means that it's meh. I'm waiting to see the rest before I make my verdict on them. We'll see. If they all use this sort of profile, then Skaven still won't really be able to take part in End Times stuff.
The Vermin Lord is not the Skaven super character. That would be Thanquol.
flamingkillamajig wrote:[Yeah seriously. Remember how when the blight kings came out and everybody complained they sucked. They seem to do fine for one of my opponents. That said these days everything's about super fast magical elf cavalry that avoids you all day. It's almost killed warhammer for me (mostly because the same 3-4 factions are being played and that's what killed 40k for me). Remember when your guys could actually get into a combat and actually fight? Not anymore thanks to elf fast cavalry nonsense.
The Deceiver Lord sounds like he'd murder MSU cavalry. S6 (-3 Armor) + Poison, with a shot for each model in the front rank? Can skitterleap in the magic phase so he makes sure he can shoot? And he can still cast other spells mind you, he is a level 4 wizard. I mean, he's still 500 points which even for his boosted abilities feels high. But still, one of the biggest issues of Plague magic is the short range. Skitterleap a decently tough monster that can cast plague? Heck yeah.
chiefbigredman wrote:"17th Thanquol end times book and mini
24th new unit, armoured rat ogres called stormfiends plus clam pack warlord and grey seer and re release of old I think in metal oddly warlock engineers"
New Rat Ogres, useful Rat Ogres, would make me the happiest skaven player. Would love a few bits designed to make a Bonebreaker as well.
Yes on all points. I think i made the same connection vs MSU cavalry. That said i'm a little worried about one special feature and that is it's dependent on the enemy's front ranks. This means if somebody wants to do the single line formation it'd totally ruin that ability (too bad it can't count flanks as ranks if in the flank when doing this attack which is stupid i think). Still plague magic on the vermin lord with the ability to do other stuff would be nice. He also has the -1 to hit for BS shooting and the improved vermin lord stat line. The boosted toughness and wounds should help.
This vermin lord would probably still do ok vs heavy cavalry and fast cavalry but magical elf cavalry are still probably good as long as they keep their ranks small. I don't have elves but if i'm fairly certain you can cast magic off of one rather than all of them. That means the cavalry could be in small ranks and still hide their vulnerable characters. With fast cavalry they'd be giving up their shooting if they even had any. That said keeping these units in small ranks makes them a little more at a disadvantage should close combat be joined.
My bigger upside to this is this could totally wreck a gunline that only forms in 2 ranks. Imagine 10-20 shots on a unit of handgunners and considering the toughness, ward saves, negative modifier for BS shooters and other stuff he should cut them down pretty fast.
---------
We still have yet to see the other vermin lords but i'm either taking this one or a magic oriented one possibly. Until there's enough shooting this magical elf fast cavalry thing is never gonna die out and i'm more worried about handling that than anything else right now. Sadly these days the answer is either going forward in a large line and containing the elves (hard to do if they ambush too) or using jezzails (which could possibly be shot off the board but could do very well).
---------
@Marshal Loss: I actually thought it was going to be The Horned Rat but thanquol would be some underling with a possible new kit.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/27 03:22:00
thedarkavenger wrote: Okay. The rules for the Deceiver have been leaked. It's pretty terrible. No armour, and the only differences between it and a normal Verminlord's profile is +1T and W.
You literally never have a good opinion about anything do you?
Debating him is pointless, as once he forms an opinion he will not let go of it, no matter how much evidence you throw at him.
The fact that this is the skaven super character and it's just about adequate means that it's meh. I'm waiting to see the rest before I make my verdict on them. We'll see. If they all use this sort of profile, then Skaven still won't really be able to take part in End Times stuff.
The Vermin Lord is not the Skaven super character. That would be Thanquol.
The Warpseer is the one that's fighting Nagash in the pictures.
Not sure why actual Skaven players are even considering this verminlord as useful. It still has a 5+ ward save which means it'll die by turn 2 probably against any army with shooting.
What is the point of a level 4 monster wizard that just skitterleaps around the board? Monsters like close combat.. Use a grey seer for skitterleap shenanigans (or don't because thats not a good strategy since its totally predictable)
5+ ward save = back on the shelf for Mr Verminlord.
Keeper of the DomBox
Warhammer Armies - Click to see galleries of fully painted armies
32,000, 19,000, Renegades - 10,000 , 7,500,
Kirasu wrote: Not sure why actual Skaven players are even considering this verminlord as useful. It still has a 5+ ward save which means it'll die by turn 2 probably against any army with shooting.
What is the point of a level 4 monster wizard that just skitterleaps around the board? Monsters like close combat.. Use a grey seer for skitterleap shenanigans (or don't because thats not a good strategy since its totally predictable)
5+ ward save = back on the shelf for Mr Verminlord.
Not all monsters like Combat. Look at the new Delf Hydra. 180 point breath weapons.
That's a bit different than a 500 pt model, you're paying a premium for the combat stats of the verminlord and thus skitterleaping around the board is wasteful.
Keeper of the DomBox
Warhammer Armies - Click to see galleries of fully painted armies
32,000, 19,000, Renegades - 10,000 , 7,500,
thedarkavenger wrote: Okay. The rules for the Deceiver have been leaked. It's pretty terrible. No armour, and the only differences between it and a normal Verminlord's profile is +1T and W.
You literally never have a good opinion about anything do you?
Debating him is pointless, as once he forms an opinion he will not let go of it, no matter how much evidence you throw at him.
The fact that this is the skaven super character and it's just about adequate means that it's meh. I'm waiting to see the rest before I make my verdict on them. We'll see. If they all use this sort of profile, then Skaven still won't really be able to take part in End Times stuff.
The Vermin Lord is not the Skaven super character. That would be Thanquol.
The Warpseer is the one that's fighting Nagash in the pictures.
Yes because this is the WD with the Vermin Lords in, not Thanquol... The Thanquol model is the week after (according to rumours).
thedarkavenger wrote: Okay. The rules for the Deceiver have been leaked. It's pretty terrible. No armour, and the only differences between it and a normal Verminlord's profile is +1T and W.
You literally never have a good opinion about anything do you?
Debating him is pointless, as once he forms an opinion he will not let go of it, no matter how much evidence you throw at him.
The fact that this is the skaven super character and it's just about adequate means that it's meh. I'm waiting to see the rest before I make my verdict on them. We'll see. If they all use this sort of profile, then Skaven still won't really be able to take part in End Times stuff.
The Vermin Lord is not the Skaven super character. That would be Thanquol.
The Warpseer is the one that's fighting Nagash in the pictures.
Yes because this is the WD with the Vermin Lords in, not Thanquol... The Thanquol model is the week after (according to rumours).
It's more likely to be Skreech Verminking. The caster who always knows, and can reroll casting attempt for Dreaded Thirteenth.
ImAGeek wrote: Skreetch Verminking is one of the models you can make in the Verminlord kit.
Exactly.
As cool as Super Thanquol would be, it's highly unlikely that he'll be Skaven's answer to stuff like Nagash. He is just a warpstone addicted Grey Seer, after all. And not even a particularly powerful one. Just (un)lucky
ImAGeek wrote: But he has his Rat Ogre (who's going to be huge from the rumours) so really he's like Glotkin; just a sorcerer on a giant monster.
Aren't all the rumours that it's 'End Times: Thanquol'? I'm almost certain well get a super Thanquol.
You know what, if they make Thanquol into some kind of all-powerful uber-Skaven rather than the vicious, bumbling, incompetent, underling-blaming dope we all know and love, that might end up being the thing I dislike most about the End Times. More than abolishing half the WHW "off-screen", more than eradicating my favourite cities in the Empire, even more than Super-Saiyan Karl Franz.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
ImAGeek wrote: But he has his Rat Ogre (who's going to be huge from the rumours) so really he's like Glotkin; just a sorcerer on a giant monster.
Aren't all the rumours that it's 'End Times: Thanquol'? I'm almost certain well get a super Thanquol.
You know what, if they make Thanquol into some kind of all-powerful uber-Skaven rather than the vicious, bumbling, incompetent, underling-blaming dope we all know and love, that might end up being the thing I dislike most about the End Times. More than abolishing half the WHW "off-screen", more than eradicating my favourite cities in the Empire, even more than Super-Saiyan Karl Franz.
Well, it is Skaven. I'm sure he'll still be a bumbling, incompetent, underling blaming dope.
ImAGeek wrote: But he has his Rat Ogre (who's going to be huge from the rumours) so really he's like Glotkin; just a sorcerer on a giant monster.
Aren't all the rumours that it's 'End Times: Thanquol'? I'm almost certain well get a super Thanquol.
You know what, if they make Thanquol into some kind of all-powerful uber-Skaven rather than the vicious, bumbling, incompetent, underling-blaming dope we all know and love, that might end up being the thing I dislike most about the End Times. More than abolishing half the WHW "off-screen", more than eradicating my favourite cities in the Empire, even more than Super-Saiyan Karl Franz.
Except we've only gotten that interpretation from the novels. The studio has always portrayed Thanquoul as a threat(albeit one as distracted, fickle, and "bumbling" as any other Skaven) and blessed by the Horned Rat for a greater destiny.
Also, just because he's bumbling and incompetent doesn't mean he's not the most powerful Skaven alive, either. He's actually shown to be pretty effective and powerful in the novels when he's not held back by his own natural cowardice.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/12/27 14:22:46
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
The skitterleap one can also often be in combat with whatever it wants turn 2, while fairly easily putting itself where cannons cannot shoot it with a skitterleap (if there's any space, you can put it between cannons and enemy units, and cannons cannot shoot if the template could hit a friendly unit).
thedarkavenger wrote: Okay. The rules for the Deceiver have been leaked. It's pretty terrible. No armour, and the only differences between it and a normal Verminlord's profile is +1T and W.
You literally never have a good opinion about anything do you?
Debating him is pointless, as once he forms an opinion he will not let go of it, no matter how much evidence you throw at him.
The fact that this is the skaven super character and it's just about adequate means that it's meh. I'm waiting to see the rest before I make my verdict on them. We'll see. If they all use this sort of profile, then Skaven still won't really be able to take part in End Times stuff.
The Vermin Lord is not the Skaven super character. That would be Thanquol.
The Warpseer is the one that's fighting Nagash in the pictures.
Irrelevant. Wait until the titular character of the series is out before making judgements (a handful of words after saying that you will wait to make a verdict...) on the stats of the 'super character'. It won't be this kit.
Bumbling idiot Thanquol may be at present, but if the End Times has showed anything it's that we can expect massive changes.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/27 16:07:30
ImAGeek wrote: But he has his Rat Ogre (who's going to be huge from the rumours) so really he's like Glotkin; just a sorcerer on a giant monster.
Aren't all the rumours that it's 'End Times: Thanquol'? I'm almost certain well get a super Thanquol.
You know what, if they make Thanquol into some kind of all-powerful uber-Skaven rather than the vicious, bumbling, incompetent, underling-blaming dope we all know and love, that might end up being the thing I dislike most about the End Times. More than abolishing half the WHW "off-screen", more than eradicating my favourite cities in the Empire, even more than Super-Saiyan Karl Franz.
Except we've only gotten that interpretation from the novels. The studio has always portrayed Thanquoul as a threat(albeit one as distracted, fickle, and "bumbling" as any other Skaven) and blessed by the Horned Rat for a greater destiny.
You're implying a distinction where none exists. Fluff is fluff(the idea that "studio fluff" is "more canon" than "BL fluff" is an invention of a portion of the fanbase), and the greatest volume of it portrays Thanquol as a largely comedic figure who is convinced he's "blessed by the Horned Rat" but in the end is almost always undone by his own arrogance or incompetence, usually in a hilarious fashion. So far this End Times drek has been played completely straight, to the point it's trying so hard to be "EPIC BRAH! *guitar solo*" it's only funny unintentionally; I have absolutely zero confidence GW will do any differently when it comes to Thanquol's role in it.
Also, just because he's bumbling and incompetent doesn't mean he's not the most powerful Skaven alive, either. He's actually shown to be pretty effective and powerful in the novels when he's not held back by his own natural cowardice.
"Powerful" is not a problem, "most awesomest awesomerat ever to awesome" riding what will no doubt be the most awesome Rat Ogre ever to exist, that would be a problem, and given how the End Times has been presenting characters so far(the ones that haven't been arbitrarily killed off of course), is anyone really expecting that GW are suddenly going to make one of the series' "feature" villains a humorous character?
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
You're implying a distinction where none exists. Fluff is fluff(the idea that "studio fluff" is "more canon" than "BL fluff" is an invention of a portion of the fanbase)
Actually, I'm not. I'm not saying anything is more "canon" than anything else, I'm saying that for something produced by the studio, the studio interpretation is most likely what the new stuff will be based on, regardless of how we fans see that same thing interpreted by other authors.
To use an example: In the X-wing series, Michael Stackpole writes Wedge Antilles as a mostly serious keen minded military officer whilst Aaron Allston writes him as a less serious, slightly reckless pilot who's a practical joker. Neither interpretation is "more canon" than the other, they're just different interpretations by different authors. You're not going to find an Allston style Wedge written by Stackpole and vice versa because that's not how that author thinks of that character.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/12/27 17:29:27
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
thedarkavenger wrote: Okay. The rules for the Deceiver have been leaked. It's pretty terrible. No armour, and the only differences between it and a normal Verminlord's profile is +1T and W.
You literally never have a good opinion about anything do you?
Debating him is pointless, as once he forms an opinion he will not let go of it, no matter how much evidence you throw at him.
The fact that this is the skaven super character and it's just about adequate means that it's meh. I'm waiting to see the rest before I make my verdict on them. We'll see. If they all use this sort of profile, then Skaven still won't really be able to take part in End Times stuff.
The Vermin Lord is not the Skaven super character. That would be Thanquol.
The Warpseer is the one that's fighting Nagash in the pictures.
Irrelevant. Wait until the titular character of the series is out before making judgements (a handful of words after saying that you will wait to make a verdict...) on the stats of the 'super character'. It won't be this kit.
Bumbling idiot Thanquol may be at present, but if the End Times has showed anything it's that we can expect massive changes.
Well, the rumours currently put it as a Karak Eight Peaks book. Which makes sense.
You're implying a distinction where none exists. Fluff is fluff(the idea that "studio fluff" is "more canon" than "BL fluff" is an invention of a portion of the fanbase)
Actually, I'm not. I'm not saying anything is more "canon" than anything else, I'm saying that for something produced by the studio, the studio interpretation is most likely what the new stuff will be based on, regardless of how we fans see that same thing interpreted by other authors.
To use an example: In the X-wing series, Michael Stackpole writes Wedge Antilles as a mostly serious keen minded military officer whilst Aaron Allston writes him as a less serious, slightly reckless pilot who's a practical joker. Neither interpretation is "more canon" than the other, they're just different interpretations by different authors. You're not going to find an Allston style Wedge written by Stackpole and vice versa because that's not how that author thinks of that character.
Fair enough, I assumed you were drawing the distinction to imply the fluff written by the design studio was somehow more definitive, as that's usually the only reason people do so.
I'm not familiar with the EU novels, did one of those authors write a demonstrably far larger amount of material about Wedge? Because that's my sticking point; BL made Thanquol what he is, and while normally GW's slapdash "pick what version you like" attitude to the fluff is fine, the End Times removes that liberty by its very nature; it is being written as the "official" version of events - cities burn, you can't pretend otherwise, countries vanish, you can't pretend otherwise, characters die or take a certain path...you get where I'm going. Having multiple versions of a character can work providing you can choose to ignore the ones you don't like, but "End Times Thanquol" will be the Thanquol because the structure of the series brooks no argument; it's the issue I have with the whole thing in microcosm, the only way to continue ignoring the bits of the fluff you don't like if you don't like the End Times is to ignore the whole Warhammer World going forward, which is difficult if you still want to play in and enjoy the Warhammer World.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
Why would Thanquol be the "super Skaven" when Lords of Decay are already in the fluff? It's been a while since I ready any of the books, but I certain remember Thanquol
Being terrified of facing the Council. At the very least you'd think Lord Kritislik would be far more powerful than Thanquol.
Valete,
JohnS
Valete,
JohnS
"You don't believe data - you test data. If I could put my finger on the moment we genuinely <expletive deleted> ourselves, it was the moment we decided that data was something you could use words like believe or disbelieve around"
cygnnus wrote: At the very least you'd think Lord Kritislik would be far more powerful than Thanquol.
Well, he's dead.
Well that's do it then... Thought none of the Lords of Decay had died in over 200 years. Or is that an End Times thing?
But I guess that's me putting a foot in mouth.
Valete,
JohnS
Valete,
JohnS
"You don't believe data - you test data. If I could put my finger on the moment we genuinely <expletive deleted> ourselves, it was the moment we decided that data was something you could use words like believe or disbelieve around"
Horst wrote:This is how trolling happens. A few cheeky posts are made. Then they get more insulting. Eventually, we revert to our primal animal state, hurling feces at each other while shreeking with glee.
So this is up. I haven't exactly been keeping up with things but uh.. did Ulthuan sink?
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
That was quite possibly the least revealing of all the teasers they've ever done. All it was was a recap of the previous books with the new Tagline and a tiny symbol of the horned rat, and no mention of what the Skaven are doing whatsoever
Renegades - 
Evil Sunz
The Dark Pact
