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Studies have also shown that red meat is bad for you, then it is good for you, now it is bad for you again.
Well, no. People who don't know how to interpret scientific studies, or are trying to sell their position to the lay population, have made those claims. But the studies themselves generally do not.
Juan Mendez wrote:I think all countries that have participated in this should borrow a leaf from the UN Senate Committee on Intelligence and come clean; do an honest, thorough, complete, and impartial investigation of what went on during the extraordinary renditions and the use of black sites.
I think that is a fair request. I don't think it will make much of a difference, but it is a fair request.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/12 23:32:52
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
These days, perception is everything. Often - it doesn't even matter if the accused did the deed they were accused of. You see this all the time in political smear campaigns. For those who live in countries messed up by the results of the US's "freedom exporting" experiment of the 2000's... there's already tons of people with hostility towards America. This CIA thing, now that its out in the public can only go two ways.
1. Ignore and/or do not prosecute - this will probably increase the numbers of those who are hostile to the US as it represents more of the status quo.
2. Draft legislation/Guidelines and/or throw someone under the bus. Best case scenario, the numbers of those hostile to the US grow at a slower rate or at best is neutral to growth.
ISIL can't be beat by a conventional war. The internet has let all the malcontents in the entire region coordinate and aggregate into a cohesive force. Something needs to be done to stem the tide of recruits and regional ill will. Just bombing them is like cutting heads off the hydra without stopping 2 heads from growing back. The West (Canada included) is just making the mess worse.
keezus wrote: ISIL can't be beat by a conventional war. The internet has let all the malcontents in the entire region coordinate and aggregate into a cohesive force. Something needs to be done to stem the tide of recruits and regional ill will. Just bombing them is like cutting heads off the hydra without stopping 2 heads from growing back. The West (Canada included) is just making the mess worse.
This is the wrong thread for it, but I do not agree with you. ISIL can only recruit from a finite pool of sympathisers - even without the morale problems they are currently facing, there are only so many people in the world who are willing to help you build a fascist empire on a foundation of sex slavery and murder. If Bob dies fighting for ISIL most people are going to recognise that he died because he was a donkey-cave and not any kind of martyr for any kind of noble cause. Anyone who doesn't think he was an donkey-cave was already an ISIL sympathiser.
"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
-C.S. Lewis
List of Bad Arguments:
"Remember how things felt right after 9/11? We were under existential threat!"
America has faced far worse existential threat in the past, and refused to endorse torture. During the Cold War, say, when we faced potential nuclear annihilation. Also, the torture program continued right up until at least 2009.
"The stuff the CIA did isn't torture."
It isn't? Try undergoing it yourself. Also, Senator McCain, a former POW and victim of torture, seems to believe it is. As does the US Military, which bans the techniques being used by its interrogators.
-Addendum: Having undergone more than a few of these techniques during certain training programs, I'm going to, from personal experience, call bs that any of that crap isn't torture. Feel free to attend SERE and try it yourself if you disagree.
"Releasing this report is politically motivated! It's just a partisan fabrication to control the media narrative!"
In that case, explain why it wasn't released back in October, when it could have influence the election.
-Addendum: Or why it wouldn't be released closer to 2016. I've had that countered with someone saying the human rights/war crimes trials will influence the political backdrop, but for feth's sake if you can admit what we did constitutes a freaking war crime how are you still defending this?
"Democrats on the Intelligence Committee also knew of these programs at the time. They are being hypocrites!"
Yes. They are. But it's never too late to do the right thing. Better late than never.
"Releasing this report endangers our troops and diplomats overseas! It is irresponsible!"
That's not an argument for covering this up, it's an argument for not using torture in the first place.
"How can you be mad at this and not mad at Drones/Obamacare/IRS scandal/Fast & Furious/Ebola response/Immigration executive action/targeted killings of American citizens/[Insert other bad thing here]!"
It is perfectly possible to be mad at both.
"What we did doesn't compare to ISIL beheading journalists/Nazis/Stalin/Twin-Towers!"
Sure. It's still bad. If we've sunk to the level where our best argument is that we aren't as bad as the Nazis, that is a problem
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
Keep in mind that the real purpose of this report isn't really to condemn the use of torture, but to allow Senate Democrats to wash their hands of it, to say it wasn’t their fault and they had nothing to do with it.
Which is flat out bull.
Frankly, we all need to realize that as a whole, the US ordered the "code red", with respect to EIT. Now the argument can certainly be made that it's definitely torture... but, evidently the DoJ didn't pursue any charges.
Think about it for second. Obama vastly opposed the use of EIT, such that, he ran on it on his maiden election campaign. Don't you think he'd prosecute this more vigorously if there were any inkling of CIA malfeasance? At least when he became President, he ordered all EIT to cease, and that's at least one good thing he has done.
For the record, the use of these techniques makes me uncomfortable. That's a good thing, because of the fear of establishing a precedent. God knows that the government will tend to expand its power whenever it is left unchecked.
The true fallout of this is that our allies will be far less inclined to cooperate with us, knowing that they will be left hanging with the bag the moment the crisis has passed. And our intelligence agencies won’t be as inclined to push vigorously to defend us if they know that their own political leaders will eventually betray them and expose them to prosecution for the very policies they approved.
whembly wrote: The true fallout of this is that our allies will be far less inclined to cooperate with us, knowing that they will be left hanging with the bag the moment the crisis has passed. And our intelligence agencies won’t be as inclined to push vigorously to defend us if they know that their own political leaders will eventually betray them and expose them to prosecution for the very policies they approved.
You say that like it's a bad thing. As I've said many times, torture is fething stupid. If our allies refuse to help the US government shoot itself in the foot and if US intelligence agencies refuse to shoot us in the foot, the US will be better off.
"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
-C.S. Lewis
KalashnikovMarine wrote: List of Bad Arguments:
"Remember how things felt right after 9/11? We were under existential threat!"
America has faced far worse existential threat in the past, and refused to endorse torture. During the Cold War, say, when we faced potential nuclear annihilation. Also, the torture program continued right up until at least 2009.
"The stuff the CIA did isn't torture."
It isn't? Try undergoing it yourself. Also, Senator McCain, a former POW and victim of torture, seems to believe it is. As does the US Military, which bans the techniques being used by its interrogators.
-Addendum: Having undergone more than a few of these techniques during certain training programs, I'm going to, from personal experience, call bs that any of that crap isn't torture. Feel free to attend SERE and try it yourself if you disagree.
"Releasing this report is politically motivated! It's just a partisan fabrication to control the media narrative!"
In that case, explain why it wasn't released back in October, when it could have influence the election.
-Addendum: Or why it wouldn't be released closer to 2016. I've had that countered with someone saying the human rights/war crimes trials will influence the political backdrop, but for feth's sake if you can admit what we did constitutes a freaking war crime how are you still defending this?
"Democrats on the Intelligence Committee also knew of these programs at the time. They are being hypocrites!"
Yes. They are. But it's never too late to do the right thing. Better late than never.
"Releasing this report endangers our troops and diplomats overseas! It is irresponsible!"
That's not an argument for covering this up, it's an argument for not using torture in the first place.
"How can you be mad at this and not mad at Drones/Obamacare/IRS scandal/Fast & Furious/Ebola response/Immigration executive action/targeted killings of American citizens/[Insert other bad thing here]!"
It is perfectly possible to be mad at both.
"What we did doesn't compare to ISIL beheading journalists/Nazis/Stalin/Twin-Towers!"
Sure. It's still bad. If we've sunk to the level where our best argument is that we aren't as bad as the Nazis, that is a problem
One of the most intelligent posts on dakka, exalted
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
Listening to the radio on the way to work yesterday I overheard an interesting point that now seems so obvious that I am honestly surprised I didn't even notice it.
American hostages killed by ISIS are wearing orange jumpsuits.
That's why I am always in the "we are supposed to be the better nation" camp. Because if we do this crab, then there is no reason why any other nation or group shouldn't do it to our citizens. I think we shouldn't torture because I don't want my brother to be tortured if he gets captured.
There is never a guarantee that they won't if we don't, but they have no reason not to use the same "tools" that we use.
Worth watching, just for the way he takes the p*ss out of fox news.
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
Da Boss wrote: I hate being on the same side of any argument as Russel Brand.
I know, I used to hate the guy. I still hate the intro music, but he makes sense sometimes.
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
Da Boss wrote: I hate being on the same side of any argument as Russel Brand.
I share that feeling. But we seem to be agreeing on a lot more. I'm forced to choose between agreeing with him, or ragequitting society, because there is no fething way I'll agree with a politician.
Sure. It's still bad. If we've sunk to the level where our best argument is that we aren't as bad as the Nazis, that is a problem
I agree with the general sentiment of your post, and all your responses; save the above.
The foundation of any argument a nation-state makes in the course of pursuing violent action is basically "We're better than X.".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
whembly wrote: And our intelligence agencies won’t be as inclined to push vigorously to defend us if they know that their own political leaders will eventually betray them and expose them to prosecution for the very policies they approved.
Who is being exposed to prosecution? The Senate report does not list names.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/14 15:15:18
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
President orders a drone strike that kills a civilian or two and nobody says a thing. CIA uses torture on murderous terrorists and everybody loses their mind.
Breo you're completely full of bull gak. There's been pretty serious protests (I know, I've been to a few of them) over President Obama's utterly gak drone policy. It's perfectly possible to be upset over both.
Both involve the CIA interestingly enough. Sounds like someone needs to go in and clean house at "The Company".
It is perfectly possible to be pissed off about this tortute thing for reasons that don't include feeling particularly sorry for the people that were tortured. My personal suspicion is that KM won't particularly shed a tear for the poor unfortunate terrorist that was caught up in this.
I'm guessing that for many folks it is less about "poor murderous terrorists don't deserve to be tortured" and more about "the US is supposed to be better than this". You can be against torture because of what it does to us, and not just because of what it does to other people.
Edit: of course KM could also feel bad for the tortured folks, don't want to exclude that possibility.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/14 17:33:26
Breotan wrote: President orders a drone strike that kills a civilian or two and nobody says a thing. CIA uses torture on murderous terrorists and everybody loses their mind.
There's enough legitimate things to be unhappy with here that we don't really need to invent pretend narratives in our head, least of all in a really roundabout way of torture-acceptance by way of whataboutism.
Additionally, they are alleged "murderous terrorists". They've never been charged with anything. Remember, the guys who brought us Fast & Furious, Benghazi, the Obamacare Website, the IRS scandal, and other assorted acts of ineptitude and malfeasance are also responsible for this. I'm sure they got it right with these guys, right? Federal government couldn't possibly be wrong?
And I feel bad for the tortured folks, no bones about it. Even if they are guilty of everything they are alleged to have done (and of course, we've never tried to actually establish that legally), then they should face justice, not torture.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/12/14 17:41:18
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Ouze wrote: This idea has little basis in reality and I suspect you know that.
Of course I do. I'm putting that out simply to show how little empathy I have for the fate of terrorists, especially given what was being done by their ilk prior to our ever becoming involved in this mess.
Ouze wrote: Additionally, they are alleged "murderous terrorists". They've never been charged with anything.
Still not able to care enough to give them the benefit of the doubt.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/12/14 17:46:37
Breotan wrote: President orders a drone strike that kills a civilian or two and nobody says a thing. CIA uses torture on murderous terrorists and everybody loses their mind.
There's enough legitimate things to be unhappy with here that we don't really need to invent pretend narratives in our head, least of all in a really roundabout way of torture-acceptance by way of whataboutism.
Additionally, they are alleged "murderous terrorists". They've never been charged with anything. Remember, the guys who brought us Fast & Furious, Benghazi, the Obamacare Website, the IRS scandal, and other assorted acts of ineptitude and malfeasance are also responsible for this. I'm sure they got it right with these guys, right? Federal government couldn't possibly be wrong?
And I feel bad for the tortured folks, no bones about it. Even if they are guilty of everything they are alleged to have done (and of course, we've never tried to actually establish that legally), then they should face justice, not torture.
I think I agree with this here...
I’ve been re-reading this report… lengthy, no doubt, but a couple things jump to mind.
First, the timeline ends 2008. The one death noted was due to alleged hypothermia, and was covered extensively in the press when it was leaked, and there are a lot of “suppositions” on the part of the SSCI… lots of them if I remember correctly.
Mistakes made? Sure.
Almost ALL of it old news, covered extensively in the US and foreign press over the years, and absolutely NOTHING thus far that has not been out there in the open already…save for the cover names and project code names.
If DiFi truly wanted to *fix* anything... release the whole damn thing (redacted of course) instead of summarizing the executive summary of these documents. Instead, she's re-litigating Bush era policies and this is nothing more than a Wag the Dog scenario imo.
If DiFi truly wanted to *fix* anything... release the whole damn thing (redacted of course) instead of summarizing the executive summary of these documents. Instead, she's re-litigating Bush era policies and this is nothing more than a Wag the Dog scenario imo
DiFi? Are you trying to remind the board of you political leanings?
Almost ALL of it old news, covered extensively in the US and foreign press over the years, and absolutely NOTHING thus far that has not been out there in the open already…save for the cover names and project code names.
None of the names of personnel were revealed.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
If DiFi truly wanted to *fix* anything... release the whole damn thing (redacted of course) instead of summarizing the executive summary of these documents. Instead, she's re-litigating Bush era policies and this is nothing more than a Wag the Dog scenario imo
DiFi? Are you trying to remind the board of you political leanings?
This is her nickname.
Also, re-litigation is not possible.
Why not? None we're reprimanded nor were charged yet.
Almost ALL of it old news, covered extensively in the US and foreign press over the years, and absolutely NOTHING thus far that has not been out there in the open already…save for the cover names and project code names.
None of the names of personnel were revealed.
Don't you think if that they truly broke some laws, the Obama administration would jump all over that?
whembly wrote: Keep in mind that the real purpose of this report isn't really to condemn the use of torture, but to allow Senate Democrats to wash their hands of it, to say it wasn’t their fault and they had nothing to do with it.
Pretty sure you've forfeited your right to complain on this forum about that TBH.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/14 22:09:50
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
