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MSS isn't broken, but it is unfun.

It is a chance to get off, ~40/60 at LD9 and ~50/50 at LD10, and that's only if the target is the only model in base contact. Then you have to roll to wound yourself, and you get saves if possible. If it doesn't go off, the Overlord isn't particularly by himself. That's far less broken than other things in the game.

But, it does suck when it happens. It sucks when you fail three 2+ saves in a single go as well. The game is all about dice, I don't see this as any better/worse than rolling 6 on D and instantly removing something, other than perhaps the price. But, to me, the price seems fine considering how crap horrible most Necrons are in CC.

They only have to address MSS if they add the option of Necron Lords buying jump packs or something like that. A Fast royal court with MSS spam would be pretty broken.

If they do remove MSS then the Overlord stats would need a serious overhaul. He has subpar stats and damage output because MSS is factored in.

The original and first full codex versions of the Necron lord had an identical statline, with the exception of Initiative 4 and Staff Of Light being a power weapon.

Frankly I'd be happier if they reverted that, factored it into the base cost and made the improved Staff mean he could switch to a Warscythe for free.

They seem pretty committed to I2 being universal rather than a Warrior and Immortal gimmick now though, sadly. Shame, it also made the Flayed Ones a bit less ridiculous.

Anyhow: Jump pack lords? Would be cool, but would also require reverting the Destroyers to Jetbikes to make much sense. As it is, the Destroyer Lord is the Jump Lord.

Regardless of whether or not they remove MSS, they need to introduce an option for our HQ slot that boosts shooting prowess.

Nearly every army in the game has some way to boost their ranged output. This comes in the form of buffs (for things like Tau or IG), Psychic Powers (take your pick), or powerful shooting attacks of their own (Tyranids, for instance). However, Necrons, who are a very shooting oriented army, have little to nothing to boost their firepower output. DLords give Preferred Enemy, and Szeras can RNG a buff onto one squad, but we don't have anything on the level of Prescience, Orders, or Ethereals in our HQ options.

In fact, the only thing in our army that does reliably increase shooting output is the Stalker, which is oftentimes a waste of points since our Destructors are Twin Linked anyway and the Stalker has a tendency to be targeted and die immediately in a lot of games. We don't have anything even close to Markerlights, Ultramarines Doctrines, etc, which just has never made much sense to me.

legions_no_more wrote:
If you have a hard time dealing with MSS, you really need to study up. Anytime a necron is assaulting you, you did somethign wrong. I have yet seen MSS break the game where it won all these tournaments.

So apparently anytime a dedicated unit of wraiths charges something the opponent is doing it wrong? Again, what does that say about you for fielding said unit. So many egos in here.

MSS is a stupid piece of gear from a game design standard because not only is it ridiculously clunky do to initiative steps and randomization but it also is a 15pt piece of gear that can invalidate 300+ point dedicated assault units. That is poor design period. Sorry but a bloodthirster shouldn't avoid a necron lord in assault for any reason. If you think it's going to remain around I'd prepare for disappointment. Not trying to be a jerk, just being honest. I don't understand how people can think its an OK piece of gear, I know how to get around it and it's implications, that hardly justifies it as a well written rule. Things that frustrate the opponent and are auto includes are generally a red flag for poor design.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
They only have to address MSS if they add the option of Necron Lords buying jump packs or something like that. A Fast royal court with MSS spam would be pretty broken.

If they do remove MSS then the Overlord stats would need a serious overhaul. He has subpar stats and damage output because MSS is factored in.

What? He has amazing stats for a tanking character actually, not to mention he has access to crazy court minions with a toolbox for anything that he can dole out across the table. Overlords are perfectly fine as is. S5 T5 2+ 3++ with a S7 ap1 amorbane weapon and the ability to get back up on a 4+ and you think they need a boost?

Again expect much disappointment, the current trend is blanding down armies. Part of it sucks, as flavor is good but over all I think it's creating healthier armies if we disregard the FOC.

 Red Corsair wrote:

legions_no_more wrote:
If you have a hard time dealing with MSS, you really need to study up. Anytime a necron is assaulting you, you did somethign wrong. I have yet seen MSS break the game where it won all these tournaments.

So apparently anytime a dedicated unit of wraiths charges something the opponent is doing it wrong? Again, what does that say about you for fielding said unit. So many egos in here.

MSS is a stupid piece of gear from a game design standard because not only is it ridiculously clunky do to initiative steps and randomization but it also is a 15pt piece of gear that can invalidate 300+ point dedicated assault units. That is poor design period. Sorry but a bloodthirster shouldn't avoid a necron lord in assault for any reason. If you think it's going to remain around I'd prepare for disappointment. Not trying to be a jerk, just being honest. I don't understand how people can think its an OK piece of gear, I know how to get around it and it's implications, that hardly justifies it as a well written rule. Things that frustrate the opponent and are auto includes are generally a red flag for poor design.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
They only have to address MSS if they add the option of Necron Lords buying jump packs or something like that. A Fast royal court with MSS spam would be pretty broken.

If they do remove MSS then the Overlord stats would need a serious overhaul. He has subpar stats and damage output because MSS is factored in.

What? He has amazing stats for a tanking character actually, not to mention he has access to crazy court minions with a toolbox for anything that he can dole out across the table. Overlords are perfectly fine as is. S5 T5 2+ 3++ with a S7 ap1 amorbane weapon and the ability to get back up on a 4+ and you think they need a boost?

Again expect much disappointment, the current trend is blanding down armies. Part of it sucks, as flavor is good but over all I think it's creating healthier armies if we disregard the FOC.

Lots of things can invalidate assault units. Overwatch is the worst offender, and Tau's supporting fire (or whatever the rule is called) is potentially worse than MSS is in most situations. That same Bloodthirster could take an Overwatch hit from a 10 point Meltagun and lose its last wound. It's probably undercosted, but it's not gamebreaking in any way.

The only thing the Overlord has going for it is the tankiness. 3W T5 2+/3++/4++++ is great, yes, but the Overlord literally does nothing else. If you don't charge him or shoot him, he does nothing except maybe make his squad more tanky if he takes 30 points for the Orb. In assault, 3 attacks at I2 WS4 is pretty poor compared to any "good" statlines.

The existance of other things that poop all over assault doesn't change the fact that MSS are a problematic piece of gear, just as Wave Serpents existing don't make Riptides OK.

 Red Corsair wrote:
So apparently anytime a dedicated unit of wraiths charges something the opponent is doing it wrong? Again, what does that say about you for fielding said unit. So many egos in here.

So we get this QQ a dozen times a day because all the time Destroyer Lords are charging MC's?

MSS is a stupid piece of gear from a game design standard because not only is it ridiculously clunky do to initiative steps and randomization but it also is a 15pt piece of gear that can invalidate 300+ point dedicated assault units. That is poor design period. Sorry but a bloodthirster shouldn't avoid a necron lord in assault for any reason. If you think it's going to remain around I'd prepare for disappointment. Not trying to be a jerk, just being honest. I don't understand how people can think its an OK piece of gear, I know how to get around it and it's implications, that hardly justifies it as a well written rule. Things that frustrate the opponent and are auto includes are generally a red flag for poor design.

How is it clunky? You do it at the start of combat and target a random model.
This game is filled with random stuff, but all of the sudden this one is clunky? Give me a break.
And please refrain from calling it a 15-point piece of wargear. Because that'd be totally ignoring the Destroyer Lord-tax you have to pay.

Yes, sometimes your 300 point model should refrain from going into CC with a specific unit.
That is what we call 'tactics', or do you charge your Riptides into a unit of Death Company?

PS. That last line is hilarious. This game has enough stuff that are actually auto-includes and frustrate the opponent, go complain about that.

What? He has amazing stats for a tanking character actually, not to mention he has access to crazy court minions with a toolbox for anything that he can dole out across the table. Overlords are perfectly fine as is. S5 T5 2+ 3++ with a S7 ap1 amorbane weapon and the ability to get back up on a 4+ and you think they need a boost?

Don't forget that:
a) They have no decent support in the Codex.
b) You are paying 205 points for that!
My BA can make a Captain with 2+/3++ and an AP2, I5-weapon for only 145 points.
I can then give him anything I want to add him to different kind of relevant units.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The existance of other things that poop all over assault doesn't change the fact that MSS are a problematic piece of gear, just as Wave Serpents existing don't make Riptides OK.

It's not problematic, it's just unfun. It has counters - have multiple things in base contact, or avoid it altogether, or have multiple characters to eat the challenge, or bring a reroll in case you fail the test, etc. Does it suck losing control of your character for one phase? Yeah, totally. But that doesn't make it broken.

This is what non - necron players don't realize, so they tend to put their foot into their mouth.

95% of Necron units have an abysmal 2 initiative

No access to the psychic phase. No blessing stacking. No extra shooting phase.

Horribly inefficient MCs

Lack of force multipliers

No battle brother options, until just recently

Necrons are chock full o open top skimmers making them vulnerable to skyfire weapons in addition to the vehicle dmg chart

Lack of AP 1/2 equipment

I can go on with the flock of albatross til I turn blue in da face. This is why we have MSS, this is why we have tesla/gauss, this is why we have quantum shielding. This is why we have cheap NS and ABs. They are trade offs. Do the math.

MSS isn't automagic either. They have to be in base to base at the top of initiative, randomly be targeted, fail a LD check on 3d6, then make damage and armor saves.

A lone Bloodthirster charging a lone Necron Lord with MSS is begging to be hit with it and still has a roughly 50% chance to ignore it.

A lone Bloodthirster charing a unit with a Necron Lord gets into base with anything else and ignores it turn 1, then has 50% to ignore it later turns.

A lone anything against MSS is probably bad idea.

Incidently, Necrons have the Initiative check or die mechanic going on, and no one seems to complain about that as much as MSS.

Watched a Bloodthirster roll a 6 on init test and die a couple of weeks ago and we all ahd a good laugh about it. Same game saw Necron Overlord torn to shreds after Demon Prince made successful checks against MSS 2 turns in a row.

MSS will either go or only work in challenges like everything else that is good in combat these days.

AlexRae wrote:
MSS will either go or only work in challenges like everything else that is good in combat these days.

I would hope so!
Having it only work on the challenger instead of a random model would be a gigantic buff to MSS in my armies.

Kangodo wrote:

AlexRae wrote:
MSS will either go or only work in challenges like everything else that is good in combat these days.

I would hope so!
Having it only work on the challenger instead of a random model would be a gigantic buff to MSS in my armies.

But it would also stop working on Monstrous Creatures. Making it worthless against Wraith Knights and their ilk. I agree that it's a likely change. I also suspect an alternate change would be: User gains the Fear USR. Suck.

Kangodo wrote:
Yes, sometimes your 300 point model should refrain from going into CC with a specific unit.
That is what we call 'tactics', or do you charge your Riptides into a unit of Death Company?

Is a Riptide designed exclusively for melee combat and completely useless and not making its points back every round that it isn't in melee combat?

And for the record, I lick my lips hourly waiting for the day that Wraiths get crapped on in the new codex. Everything else in the codex could stay the same and I'd still be happy if Wraiths were nerfed.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Is a Riptide designed exclusively for melee combat and completely useless and not making its points back every round that it isn't in melee combat?
And for the record, I lick my lips hourly waiting for the day that Wraiths get crapped on in the new codex. Everything else in the codex could stay the same and I'd still be happy if Wraiths were nerfed.

No, he is not.
So you don't do such a thing because it's a bad choice and that would cost you the game.
In the exact same spirit you don't allow a Necron Lord to charge your CC-MC.
And if you charge the Lord, you let him activate MSS or avoid getting into B2B with the Lord.

If everything stayed the same and Wraiths were nerfed, then GW would lose a lot of players. Because the Codex, as it is now, is crap!
Despite popular belief they are not a book filled with nothing but overpoweredness where every single model can battle an entire squad of Marines.
It's a book where you pay Terminator-prices for a 3+ unit without Inv or Deep Strike.
A book where a Cryptek with +1W, +1SV and a useless random ability suddenly becomes 55 points more expensive.

 docdoom77 wrote:
But it would also stop working on Monstrous Creatures. Making it worthless against Wraith Knights and their ilk. I agree that it's a likely change. I also suspect an alternate change would be: User gains the Fear USR. Suck.

The GK-thing has been changed to Character, so I'm not sure what GW's plans are with MC's.
Fear, aah, yes.. That could be their plan, but it would suck. There is a reason I'm not taking it on my SG's for 1 point a model.

Well, this is the first time I have posted on dakkadakka, but I have held such conversations on other forums. I had always liked the original 3rd edition codex that we (Necrons) had. I was sad that the current codex had come out and had changed our base warriors SV to a 4+, We'll Be Back from a 4+ to Reanimation with a 5+, made the lord slower to I2, had removed the nearly immune to anti-tank weapons on the monolith, and to my biggest disappointment removed the NIghtbringer and Deceiver from the codex.

But I had realized that with the change that we had received, the army became more powerful and was able to compete if not beat another codex. We got a ton of new toys to try out, the cheapest and most efficient flyers in the game, and a ton of equipment to make up for the complete lack of psychic powers.

But now with the current 7th edition of the game, pyskers have become one of the most powerful units in the game and Necrons do not even have access to such things. Yes, you can take allies or go unbound, but I would prefer to stay with a single codex that I can have an enjoyable time playing. Everything in the Necron codex is designed to work with Necrons, not designed to work with other armies. A Bloodthirster is not designed to work with a unit of Eldar Guardians, or Blood Angle Assault Marines, or even a Nurgling Swarm.

Everyone should be fine with the codices that exist and will exist. I know that people will always complain about certain units, powers, rules, or equipment from another codex, but they should realize that other people will always complain about their codex.

I a pair of friends, one plays elder and the other plays daemons. They both complain about each others codex. Such as the Wraith Knight is overpowered and should be costing a minimum of 300 points or so and that all wraithguns should go back to the last Codex: Eldar version. The other says that the amount of psychic control that daemons have is too much and that all their pyskers and MC's should cost about 100 to 150 points more than they do already.

What I am trying to get to is that there will always be certain rules, abilities, units, powers, or equipment that is in a codex that seems overpowered, but that exists in every codex there is. It is GW's way of balancing the game and testing your own ability to make the correct tactical choice at the right moment. If it does not work out in your favor, too bad but that is the way the game is played. If it does work in your favor congrats on using your strategy to the fullest.

That is my piece.

Thank you for that coherent and well thought out first post.

Welcome to the Dakka Community.

 Longshadow7 wrote:
What I am trying to get to is that there will always be certain rules, abilities, units, powers, or equipment that is in a codex that seems overpowered, but that exists in every codex there is. It is GW's way of balancing the game and testing your own ability to make the correct tactical choice at the right moment.

You're right about the first part - there are always going to be certain combinations or units and so on that seem overpowered (or are overpowered) - but I can't agree with that second part. GW makes no appreciable effort to balance the game. If they did, the game wouldn't be in the state that it is now.

Beyond that, I agree with the idea about testing your own ability to make a good list. Welcome to Dakka.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
Yes, sometimes your 300 point model should refrain from going into CC with a specific unit.
That is what we call 'tactics', or do you charge your Riptides into a unit of Death Company?

Is a Riptide designed exclusively for melee combat and completely useless and not making its points back every round that it isn't in melee combat?

And for the record, I lick my lips hourly waiting for the day that Wraiths get crapped on in the new codex. Everything else in the codex could stay the same and I'd still be happy if Wraiths were nerfed.

Because Wraiths need a nerf? Wraiths are fine as is.

@BlaxicanX: why do you think Wraiths should be nerfed? they don't strike me as being OP.

Thread lock incoming.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Longshadow7 wrote:
What I am trying to get to is that there will always be certain rules, abilities, units, powers, or equipment that is in a codex that seems overpowered, but that exists in every codex there is. It is GW's way of balancing the game and testing your own ability to make the correct tactical choice at the right moment.

.....but I can't agree with that second part. GW makes no appreciable effort to balance the game. If they did, the game wouldn't be in the state that it is now...

Don't say that when the new 7th ed codexes are deliberate attempts to balance the game. And exactly what state isn't it in? Alaska?
;D

Speaking to a larger point here... GW has a history of buffing under-used (under-sold) units and nerfing units that sold very well. You could almost accuse GW of using that as a strategy to sell models.
To that point... there will always be klunkers in every codex. There should always be good units as well; internal codex balance never will be perfect. Hopefully, this edition of 40k will be with us for a while and the few codicies that are out of balance will be brought into balance (In my mind, that means Tau, Eldar, Demons, Dark Angels and CSM). Oh, and Necron rules that work with the current edition would be nice.

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Speaking to a larger point here... GW has a history of buffing under-used (under-sold) units and nerfing units that sold very well. You could almost accuse GW of using that as a strategy to sell models.
To that point... there will always be klunkers in every codex. There should always be good units as well; internal codex balance never will be perfect. Hopefully, this edition of 40k will be with us for a while and the few codicies that are out of balance will be brought into balance (In my mind, that means Tau, Eldar, Demons, Dark Angels and CSM). Oh, and Necron rules that work with the current edition would be nice.

That used to be the trend, but it seems like 6th and 7th edition books have really bucked that.

I mean, we've seen plenty of new shiny kits that have been totally useless.

Soo... 15pages into Cron rumours and we've only seen what may or may not be a new Necron Lord model and some formations for Shield of Baal campaign... how boring.

Pyrovores and Venomthropes didn't get a glowing report card when they came out, either.

New model doesn't guarantee competitiveness, IME.

I have Exterminatus and just added everything to BattleScribe.
Some things I find very interesting:

1. C'tan shard picture uses the T-C'tan. New clamp-pack probably?

2. Edge of Eternity has AP2, probably an indication of what will happen to War Scythes.
Yes, this Relic is worth 20 points.. Because people forgot to mention the Precision Strike is on a 2+.
That will probably mean that War Scythes remain at 10 points!

3. Solar Thermasite let's you reroll saving throws of 1. What will this mean for the Sv2+ from Overlords?
I don't believe they will allow us to get an Overlord with a 2+/3++/4++++ that can reroll 1's on his Arm/Inv.

4. Warlord Traits: Haywire on Melee, Hatred.
Is this an indication of more melee-orientated stuff for Necrons?

5. You may choose to re-roll failed Morale, Pinning and Fear.
Why would I want this Trait if they are all Ld10; does this mean the Necron-Ld will be changed or is this just for losing CC?

6. Detachment with re-rolls on RP for Troops; that will make a 4+ RP with a re-roll on the 1's at the moment.
Perhaps they will change either RP or ResOrbs?

7. Ghost Arks are independent entries in the Formations.
I expected them to get their own slot, but what does this mean for their capacity?

8. Lack of regular Lords: Are we keeping them, what happens to them?

9. Immortals are heavily featured in the Formations. They are also renamed from 'Necron Immortals' to 'Immortals'.
I expect them to get quite some attention, perhaps even go to Elite and get Scarabs/Flayed Ones in Troops.

Neronoxx wrote:
Don't say that when the new 7th ed codexes are deliberate attempts to balance the game.

They are?

 skoffs wrote:
Highly doubtful.
This is the same guy whose "reliable" source said the codex was coming out the week of Halloween.
I mean, FFS, he didn't even mention anything about the formation that was talked about in the latest Sheild of Baal stuff!
I'm done listening to anyone who has a bad track record... so in other words, I'm hanging out for more word from Lords Of Wargaming.

Mh. Fun to look at, though, and the Alliance on Asphodex was right.