Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

It doesn't matter what the powers are, what matters is that you have to roll one after choosing a target.

It's the same reason why no-one likes the Zzap gun.

The Zzap-gun is nice!
But hey, they are Orks. They are supposed to do stuff like that, it's what everyone likes about them.

changemod wrote:
Tran C'tan's a very deliberate nerf. They put Titan firepower on a 6 wound Gargantuan creature... Which did capture the flavour of a living god very well but didn't make for good balance.

Especially when said Gargantuan Creature was small enough to be obscured by other infantry FFS.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
It doesn't matter what the powers are, what matters is that you have to roll one after choosing a target.

And, naturally, many of the powers are only useful against specific targets.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

changemod wrote:
Tran C'tan's a very deliberate nerf. They put Titan firepower on a 6 wound Gargantuan creature... Which did capture the flavour of a living god very well but didn't make for good balance.

Especially when said Gargantuan Creature was small enough to be obscured by other infantry FFS.

Nah, that's a plus. Of course an entire living star compressed into a humanoid shell has the presence of a much vaster creature.

Instead of dwelling on what was already beaten on lets look at the positive.

Pretty much universal perks to the elites slots with point drops, weapon buffs and better RP.

Sp far only two of 7(?) characters have been leaked and they look stronger.

Who knows what has changed for ghost arks. I am betting they allow a reroll or increase RP rolls, and you know they will be a FA option meaning pairing them with lychguard is gona be easier.

Heck I even like the S increase on the doomsday ark. Of course someone was saying it wasn't much but I disagree. Hitting that s10 threshold is massive since it makes things like bike support characters and anything thunderwolf think twice. It still needs a point drop, but I am betting it grabbed one.

The res orb is now situational better IMO as well. a 5+ reroll is better then a 4 on units that only ever need that one crucial roll anyway, like bargelords.

The WS 5 is also nice on overlords since they hit 16+ better against most infantry in the game.

I will stay positive on this one. I am guessing that like most updates Necrons will be better then initially expected just different.

I am all for making formerly unused units popular. It was kind of stale seeing overlords leading plebeian maintenance bots supported by NS and AB's almost every game.

 Henker-Kind wrote:
well, what do you say?

vi an anonymous source on Faeit 212
Note that the datacards include a deck of the c'tan powers so you can shuffle those and draw a card instead of rolling.
All powers are 24" except the Tesseract Vault which has a range of 48".
Tesseract Vault powers are are the same strength and ap, but longer ranged and other changes noted below.
1. Powers of the C'tan
Antimatter Meteor -S8 AP3 lg blast
-Tesseract Vault Apoc Blast
2. Cosmic Fire - S6 AP4 lg blast ignores cover
-Tesseract Vault Apoc blast ignores cover
3. Seismic Assault - S6 AP4 assault 10 strikedown
-Tesseract Vault Assault 20 strikedown
4. Sky of Falling Stars - S7 AP4 assault 3 lg blast barrage
-Tesseract Vault assault 6 apoc barrage
5. Time's Arrow - SD AP1 precision shot
-Tesseract Vault assault 2 precision shots
6. Transdimensional Thunderbolt -S9 AP1 Tesla
-Tesseract Vault assault 2 Tesla
*Tesla: When firing this weapon a to hit roll of 6 causes 2 extra hits. Snap shots dont do extra hits.

Thank you !!

To whoever was arguing with me a few pages ago, remember all the crying about the powers being random, and then me saying it would only make sense if they all had the same range ?

How does them having the same range fix anything?

"I'll shoot that chimera and... oh, I rolled #2 and am rewarded with a S6 AP4 large blast."

"Well, this turn I'll just shoot that guard blob and... oh, I rolled #6 and am now getting a single S9 AP1 squad. Maybe I'll roll a 6 - then I can kill up to 3 guardsmen. Yey..."

 adamsouza wrote:

 Henker-Kind wrote:
well, what do you say?

vi an anonymous source on Faeit 212
Note that the datacards include a deck of the c'tan powers so you can shuffle those and draw a card instead of rolling.
All powers are 24" except the Tesseract Vault which has a range of 48".
Tesseract Vault powers are are the same strength and ap, but longer ranged and other changes noted below.
1. Powers of the C'tan
Antimatter Meteor -S8 AP3 lg blast
-Tesseract Vault Apoc Blast
2. Cosmic Fire - S6 AP4 lg blast ignores cover
-Tesseract Vault Apoc blast ignores cover
3. Seismic Assault - S6 AP4 assault 10 strikedown
-Tesseract Vault Assault 20 strikedown
4. Sky of Falling Stars - S7 AP4 assault 3 lg blast barrage
-Tesseract Vault assault 6 apoc barrage
5. Time's Arrow - SD AP1 precision shot
-Tesseract Vault assault 2 precision shots
6. Transdimensional Thunderbolt -S9 AP1 Tesla
-Tesseract Vault assault 2 Tesla
*Tesla: When firing this weapon a to hit roll of 6 causes 2 extra hits. Snap shots dont do extra hits.

Thank you !!

To whoever was arguing with me a few pages ago, remember all the crying about the powers being random, and then me saying it would only make sense if they all had the same range ?

Doesn't really help though. Yeah it means you'll always be able to hit the target but the attack is still random. You might get something completely useless against the target.

There are still fewer failure points than witchfires. I bet they will get options to reroll the shooting attack generated or other options.

Maybe you draw two and pick one? Maybe they are cost so cheap that the powers are just icing? Maybe they suck entirely? There is plenty of win in that book still, I'd probably just run any C'tan each turn were I to field one, they honestly need the additional movement anyway.

 vipoid wrote:
How does them having the same range fix anything?

There is a difference between a mechanic not working and it not doing what you want it to.

The chief complaint earlier was that the previous powers had different ranges, some being template, that would miss targets if you picked a target that would suddently become out of range after you nomiated them and rolled the effect. All powers having the same range negates this issue.

The sound strategy now is to plan on S6 attacks, and 67% of the time it is actually stronger.

I get that some people don't like, or want random, but that doesn't make the mechanic they implemented crap.

 adamsouza wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
How does them having the same range fix anything?

There is a difference between a mechanic not working and it not doing what you want it to.

The chief complaint earlier was that the previous powers had different ranges, some being template, that would miss targets if you picked a target that would suddently become out of range after you nomiated them and rolled the effect. All pwoers having the same range negates this issue.

The sound strategy now is to plan on S6 attacks, and 67% of the time it is actually stonger.

I get that some people don't like, or want random, but that doesn't make the mechanic they implemented crap.

I mean, it does though, doesn't it? It is crap. It's a crap mechanic. Let's not mince words - being unable to pick whether to fire either S6 ap 4 or S D, relying instead on a random roll so you can have another random roll to hit, followed by a random roll to pen/wound, then another random roll to save... It's not a good mechanic, is it? Not to mention how the feth the barrage one is meant to work (do I need to select individual models in a unit? Can I pick out of sight models?). It's bad.

"Relying" on S6 is also a bit of an odd thing to say. I'd rely on dakkafexes to fire S6. I wouldn't want to rely on a 240 point Nightbringer rolling S6 - that's just assuming that my unit will be bad. And if it's going to be bad... Why bother? You know? So yes, it's a crap mechanic. Now, it might not kill the unit, or there could be things redeeming about it, but this particular portion of the rules is really bad. Just because the rules have some semblance of working doesn't fix that.

C'Tan better have a massive, and I mean MASSIVE, points reduction to compensate, otherwise...

Assuming S6 shold keep you in the mindset of it being anti infantry and anti MC.

It's only 'crap' if you trying to use for something it's not well suited for.

 adamsouza wrote:
The chief complaint earlier was that the previous powers had different ranges, some being template, that would miss targets if you picked a target that would suddently become out of range after you nomiated them and rolled the effect. All powers having the same range negates this issue.

Nonsense, the main complaint was always that it was random.

The sound strategy now is to plan on S6 attacks, and 67% of the time it is actually stronger.

A strategy that is basically "Act as if this 240-point unit can't hurt vehicles and blobs" is crap.

I get that some people don't like, or want random, but that doesn't make the mechanic they implemented crap.

But the mechanic, as spoiled, is crap.
The C'tan Shards are too expensive to not be reliable against anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 adamsouza wrote:
Assuming S6 shold keep you in the mindset of it being anti infantry and anti MC.

It's only 'crap' if you trying to use for something it's not well suited for.

Then please tell me what it IS suited for.
It clearly isn't infantry, because I have a gigantic chance of rolling anti-AV powers that do nothing against infantry.
Unacceptable for a model that is rumoured to cost 240 points.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
C'Tan better have a massive, and I mean MASSIVE, points reduction to compensate, otherwise...

Deceiver Shard costs 240pts, so unless it got a massive statline boost it's still overpriced.

I'd rather get Sylons instead of that C'tan shard. Vastly more effective at killing infantry, way better at killing MC.

Then please tell me what it IS suited for.

I'm going to use my C'tan shard to shoot whatever is within 24" and I want dead.

 adamsouza wrote:

Then please tell me what it IS suited for.

I'm going to use my C'tan shard to shoot whatever is within 24" and I want dead.

Yeah good luck with that.

Considering we are talking about Necrons, whose main way of dealing with AV13-14 at range is to spam shots and hope for 6's to glance stuff to death, having a 67% chance to get a decent S anti tank shot off isn't that daunting.

Since I'm already relying on Scarabs and Stormteks for my real antitank, I'm not going to be any more heart broken when my Shard fails at breaching a tank than I am when my blob of 10-20 warriors doesn't manage to get a single 6 on their damage rolls.

 adamsouza wrote:
Assuming S6 shold keep you in the mindset of it being anti infantry and anti MC.

It's only 'crap' if you trying to use for something it's not well suited for.

"These termagants need to die. Whoops, rolled a single STR D shot, let's super duper kill this one guy"

"This Wraithknight is a real pain. Let's see... S6 ap 4 large blast? Excellent, now I can average less than 1/18th of a wound!"

See, the thing is, there's no unit that doesn't have at least one dead draw with these powers. That means you are, in effect, rolling to hit twice before even resolving damage (which might not even be possible, depending on the target). That's a bad mechanic. At 240 points, that's a TERRIBLE mechanic.

 adamsouza wrote:


There is a difference between a mechanic not working and it not doing what you want it to.

When the mechanic has to do what I want it to do in order to work, there is no difference. They are literally one and the same.

 adamsouza wrote:
The chief complaint earlier was that the previous powers had different ranges, some being template, that would miss targets if you picked a target that would suddently become out of range after you nomiated them and rolled the effect. All powers having the same range negates this issue.

I don't remember that being the main complaint at all.

 adamsouza wrote:

The sound strategy now is to plan on S6 attacks, and 67% of the time it is actually stronger.

*Sigh*

Ok, let's say I plan on S6. S6 what? What am I firing? Am I firing a blast? A single shot? Multiple shots? What? If I don't know, then what good does S6 do me?

 adamsouza wrote:
.
I get that some people don't like, or want random, but that doesn't make the mechanic they implemented crap.

Except that it does. Because making it random destroys the whole basis of the weapon, You need to pick a target before you know what your weapon will be useful/effective against. How is this mechanic not crap?

Do you normally pick a target and then play roulette to find out which of your models shoots at it?

 vipoid wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:


There is a difference between a mechanic not working and it not doing what you want it to.

When the mechanic has to do what I want it to do in order to work, there is no difference. They are literally one and the same.

 adamsouza wrote:
The chief complaint earlier was that the previous powers had different ranges, some being template, that would miss targets if you picked a target that would suddently become out of range after you nomiated them and rolled the effect. All powers having the same range negates this issue.

I don't remember that being the main complaint at all.

 adamsouza wrote:

The sound strategy now is to plan on S6 attacks, and 67% of the time it is actually stronger.

*Sigh*

Ok, let's say I plan on S6. S6 what? What am I firing? Am I firing a blast? A single shot? Multiple shots? What? If I don't know, then what good does S6 do me?

 adamsouza wrote:
.
I get that some people don't like, or want random, but that doesn't make the mechanic they implemented crap.

Except that it does. Because making it random destroys the whole basis of the weapon, You need to pick a target before you know what your weapon will be useful/effective against. How is this mechanic not crap?

Do you normally pick a target and then play roulette to find out which of your models shoots at it?

Back then C'Tans never were very shooty units. two strength 4 one strength nine if I am correct. Before that is a different story but going from the last codex each and every shot is more dangerous BUT now we can only shoot one at a time.

But C'Tans were cc orientated this is where they destroy tanks; so as others said:

hopefully different shards may reroll on the table or have other fixed things build in!! BTW the nightbringer shard is 240 Points so no real reduction just a middling of the points possible in th eold codex.

there is one question I want to ask though: you have seen the GW-armybuilder tool pic of the nightbrigner shard? If so, does it show, that there is no customizability, for there are no options shown?

This isn't really a tactics forum. I'm sure when the book drops, we can argue ad infinitum over the merit of certain units. Right now I'm just salivating for more information!

The C'tan is looking to be one of those models that will be either be MVP or a let down, based purely on what you roll for his attacks. Considering the old C'tan was a let down regardless, I'll stay optimistic

 Henker-Kind wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:


There is a difference between a mechanic not working and it not doing what you want it to.

When the mechanic has to do what I want it to do in order to work, there is no difference. They are literally one and the same.

 adamsouza wrote:
The chief complaint earlier was that the previous powers had different ranges, some being template, that would miss targets if you picked a target that would suddently become out of range after you nomiated them and rolled the effect. All powers having the same range negates this issue.

I don't remember that being the main complaint at all.

 adamsouza wrote:

The sound strategy now is to plan on S6 attacks, and 67% of the time it is actually stronger.

*Sigh*

Ok, let's say I plan on S6. S6 what? What am I firing? Am I firing a blast? A single shot? Multiple shots? What? If I don't know, then what good does S6 do me?

 adamsouza wrote:
.
I get that some people don't like, or want random, but that doesn't make the mechanic they implemented crap.

Except that it does. Because making it random destroys the whole basis of the weapon, You need to pick a target before you know what your weapon will be useful/effective against. How is this mechanic not crap?

Do you normally pick a target and then play roulette to find out which of your models shoots at it?

Back then C'Tans never were very shooty units. two strength 4 one strength nine if I am correct. Before that is a different story but going from the last codex each and every shot is more dangerous BUT now we can only shoot one at a time.

But C'Tans were cc orientated this is where they destroy tanks; so as others said:

hopefully different shards may reroll on the table or have other fixed things build in!! BTW the nightbringer shard is 240 Points so no real reduction just a middling of the points possible in th eold codex.

there is one question I want to ask though: you have seen the GW-armybuilder tool pic of the nightbrigner shard? If so, does it show, that there is no customizability, for there are no options shown?

If Ctans once again have 12" movement, a better ++ save, and/or some other way to get into assault faster, then by all means I am perfectly fine with their random shooting since that wont be their main way to deal damage. As it stands though, I highly doubt GW has done that (though after the surprisingly decent BA codex, who knows...).

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

If Ctans once again have 12" movement,

Once again?

Wait, you guys completely convinced me C'tans are crap. Let's not field any

1. Antimatter Meteor -S8 AP3 lg blast
Clearly a terrible power. Battle cannon hits are just uselss against everything

2. Cosmic Fire - S6 AP4 lg blast ignores cover
Clearly a terrible power. Sure it frags every horde unit in the game, (jinking units too right ?) but it can't crack open Landraiders, so feth using it.

3. Seismic Assault - S6 AP4 assault 10 strikedown
Another one of those terrible anti infantry powers.

4. Sky of Falling Stars - S7 AP4 assault 3 lg blast barrage
3 Large S7 Blast Markers ? Dammit, I might accidently wipe entire units off the board while being uselss against Land Raiders

5. Time's Arrow - SD AP1 precision shot
Dammit, that 1 target that I pick has a 16% of surviving

6. Transdimensional Thunderbolt -S9 AP1 Tesla
Grrr...Arrrgh now I have a great antitank shot that doesn't mow down entire squads.

 MoonlightSonata wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

If Ctans once again have 12" movement,

Once again?

Meant having it like Trans CTan already do, my mistake.