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Eyjio wrote:
Ohh, so it just basically goes "use overlord rules from codex, also here's some extra stuff it can take" then? That's pretty sweet and yes, it would seem they can take both relics then.

Not really
Relics from book Exterminatus are restricted to Lords/Crypteks in formations/detachments from Exterminatus.
So that means:
-Mephrit Detachment
-Anrakyr's Formation
-Conclave of the Burning One
-Mephrit Dynasty Formation
-Guardians of Perdita Formation
-Zarathusa's Royal Formation

If you take a Combined Arms Detachment, or a Detachment/formation from the new Codex, it is NOT a Detachment/Formation from the Exterminatus-book and therefore you cannot take the Relics from the Exterminatus-book.

 SilverDevilfish wrote:

 undertow wrote:

 Skanktastic wrote:
Does the wording of wraithflight make it so we dotn lose int on charge through difficult ? Is charging just considered moving ?

Aren't beasts unaffected by difficult terrain, even when charging?

They are not slowed by terrain and auto-pass dangerous terrain tests.

Not being slowed by terrain/auto-passing dt tests is not the same being unaffected by terrain.

Treating all terrain as open however...

To me this doesn't necessarily prove that Wraiths don't fight at I1 Step when charging throught difficult terrain.

1) There's a difference between "When moving" and "when charging", especially when both statement are explicitly mentioned in the Rulebook.
2) Doesn't the Wraithflight's second statement reminds you of Moving Rules of several unit types? For example in the Jump Infantry Section, Movement phase part: "Jump models cannot end their move on top of other models and can only end their move
on top of impassable terrain if it is actually possible to place the models on top of it. If they do this, however, they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain". This clearly sounds similar to the claim in question.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 Skanktastic wrote:
Does the wording of wraithflight make it so we dotn lose int on charge through difficult ? Is charging just considered moving ?

I don't think charging is considered "moving". If charging were to be included, I would think that it would say "when moving or charging"

Agree with you, there are other models (beasts) that do not suffer movement penalties while moving but still suffer init penalty on assault. Unless it says they do not suffer init penalty wraithflight units will still suffer it. It's a core rule, so the special rule- in this case wraithflight- would have to state that it ignores it or modifies it. Since it does not it has no effect on in the init penalty.

 Galorian wrote:
Chronometron is a Cryptek upgrade option listed in their profile page.

I didn't see it, thanks!

Kangodo wrote:

Eyjio wrote:
Ohh, so it just basically goes "use overlord rules from codex, also here's some extra stuff it can take" then? That's pretty sweet and yes, it would seem they can take both relics then.

Not really
Relics from book Exterminatus are restricted to Lords/Crypteks in formations/detachments from Exterminatus.
So that means:
-Mephrit Detachment
-Anrakyr's Formation
-Conclave of the Burning One
-Mephrit Dynasty Formation
-Guardians of Perdita Formation
-Zarathusa's Royal Formation

If you take a Combined Arms Detachment, or a Detachment/formation from the new Codex, it is NOT a Detachment/Formation from the Exterminatus-book and therefore you cannot take the Relics from the Exterminatus-book.

I meant as long as they were from a Mephirit detatchment.

KurtAngle2 wrote:
1) There's a difference between "When moving" and "when charging", especially when both statement are explicitly mentioned in the Rulebook.

I disagree.
'Charge Move' tells us that you move the unit and that you call it a Charge Move.
But no matter how you call it, they are still moving.

If it said: "In the Movement Phase, Wraiths can move over all other models and terrain....." than it wouldn't work in the Charge Move.
But as it is now they definitely treat all terrain as if it were open ground.

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 SilverDevilfish wrote:

 undertow wrote:

 Skanktastic wrote:
Does the wording of wraithflight make it so we dotn lose int on charge through difficult ? Is charging just considered moving ?

Aren't beasts unaffected by difficult terrain, even when charging?

They are not slowed by terrain and auto-pass dangerous terrain tests.

Not being slowed by terrain/auto-passing dt tests is not the same being unaffected by terrain.

Treating all terrain as open however...

To me this doesn't necessarily prove that Wraiths don't fight at I1 Step when charging throught difficult terrain.

1) There's a difference between "When moving" and "when charging", especially when both statement are explicitly mentioned in the Rulebook.
2) Doesn't the Wraithflight's second statement reminds you of Moving Rules of several unit types? For example in the Jump Infantry Section, Movement phase part: "Jump models cannot end their move on top of other models and can only end their move
on top of impassable terrain if it is actually possible to place the models on top of it. If they do this, however, they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain". This clearly sounds similar to the claim in question.

Charging is still moving. It doesn't say when moving in the movement phase. It just says when moving. If you treat the terrain as open ground, when moving and you move when you charge, you do not suffer the initiative penalty. That's my take.

I'm glad they're still writing unclear rules.

Eyjio wrote:
I meant as long as they were from a Mephirit detatchment.

Aah yes.
But I am 90% sure the Codex will also have the line "only units in a Codex-detachment can take Codex-relics" because all books have this.
That means an Overlord in a Mephrit Detachment cannot take Codex-Relics.

I think Necrons should have Hatred (Eldar) as well to be honest. Well- the HQ choices anyway obviously cause they've got a bit more about them than the rank and file.

Kangodo wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
1) There's a difference between "When moving" and "when charging", especially when both statement are explicitly mentioned in the Rulebook.

I disagree.
'Charge Move' tells us that you move the unit and that you call it a Charge Move.
But no matter how you call it, they are still moving.

If it said: "In the Movement Phase, Wraiths can move over all other models and terrain....." than it wouldn't work in the Charge Move.
But as it is now they definitely treat all terrain as if it were open ground.

I'm sorry, Kangodo... that is the same argument that ultimately failed the last time. Unless it says that it changes the initiative penalty for assaulting into terrain, then it doesn't.

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 undertow wrote:

 Skanktastic wrote:
Does the wording of wraithflight make it so we dotn lose int on charge through difficult ? Is charging just considered moving ?

Aren't beasts unaffected by difficult terrain, even when charging?

You still are reduced to Init 1 if you don't have grenades or stuff that says that your Init isn't reduced.

If you "treat difficult as open terrain" how would you be reduced to I1? Open terrain does not reduce initiative.

Check page 47 of your rulebook please.

"...if at least one model of a assaulting unit goes through a difficult terrain during its charge, All the models in the unit attacks at initiative 1, without any concerne about Initiative modifiers; and even if the assaulting unit isn't slowed down by difficult terrain..."

The only thing that permits you to use your full init is grenades, are Wraiths equipped with Nades?, NO, thank you kind sir.

The only thing that this rule does is that they don't have a -2 on their assault distance.

 Anpu-adom wrote:
I'm sorry, Kangodo... that is the same argument that ultimately failed the last time. Unless it says that it changes the initiative penalty for assaulting into terrain, then it doesn't.

How do you mean with last time?

It says they treat all terrain as open ground.
Do I get a penalty for charging into open ground?

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 undertow wrote:

 Skanktastic wrote:
Does the wording of wraithflight make it so we dotn lose int on charge through difficult ? Is charging just considered moving ?

Aren't beasts unaffected by difficult terrain, even when charging?

You still are reduced to Init 1 if you don't have grenades or stuff that says that your Init isn't reduced.

If you "treat difficult as open terrain" how would you be reduced to I1? Open terrain does not reduce initiative.

Check page 47 of your rulebook please.

"...if at least one model of a assaulting unit goes through a difficult terrain during its charge, All the models in the unit attacks at initiative 1, without any concerne about Initiative modifiers; and even if the assaulting unit isn't slowed down by difficult terrain..."

So now you agree with me? That is exactly the line I'm using to support my stance. They didn't move through difficult terrain. They moved through open ground. They treat all difficult terrain as open ground.

Kangodo wrote:

Eyjio wrote:
Huh? Does it just say "use the unit rules from the codex" or something then rather than listing vague profiles?

Exterminatus is basically a supplement.
It gives additional rules to use with the Codex.
You have a few Formations and a Detachment.
And units in a Detachment/Formation from Exterminatus can take Relics and Warlord Traits from Exterminatus.

It also only has three relics total, which may be why it didn't ban them from the main book.

Anyhow: Is it just me, or is there zero reason to take Tesla Immortals or the Conclave of the Burning One any more?

Tesla Immortals can't snap fire, have no AP, and can't take a Stormtek with lightning field for withering overwatch anymore. Add to that Gauss has both anti-vehicle and anti T8+ now. The only advantage is marginally higher hit rate at long range.

Meanwhile the Conclave... Just take a God Shackle elsewhere in your army. 130 plus wargear is a horrendous tax on an already pricey model.

Kangodo wrote:

 Anpu-adom wrote:
I'm sorry, Kangodo... that is the same argument that ultimately failed the last time. Unless it says that it changes the initiative penalty for assaulting into terrain, then it doesn't.

How do you mean with last time?

It says they treat all terrain as open ground.
Do I get a penalty for charging into open ground?

Read my post above please.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 undertow wrote:

 Skanktastic wrote:
Does the wording of wraithflight make it so we dotn lose int on charge through difficult ? Is charging just considered moving ?

Aren't beasts unaffected by difficult terrain, even when charging?

You still are reduced to Init 1 if you don't have grenades or stuff that says that your Init isn't reduced.

If you "treat difficult as open terrain" how would you be reduced to I1? Open terrain does not reduce initiative.

Check page 47 of your rulebook please.

"...if at least one model of a assaulting unit goes through a difficult terrain during its charge, All the models in the unit attacks at initiative 1, without any concerne about Initiative modifiers; and even if the assaulting unit isn't slowed down by difficult terrain..."

So now you agree with me? That is exactly the line I'm using to support my stance. They didn't move through difficult terrain. They moved through open ground. They treat all difficult terrain as open ground.

If the thing says that they still are affected by it even if they arn't slowed down by terrain, then it is.

changemod wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

Eyjio wrote:
Huh? Does it just say "use the unit rules from the codex" or something then rather than listing vague profiles?

Exterminatus is basically a supplement.
It gives additional rules to use with the Codex.
You have a few Formations and a Detachment.
And units in a Detachment/Formation from Exterminatus can take Relics and Warlord Traits from Exterminatus.

It also only has three relics total, which may be why it didn't ban them from the main book.

Anyhow: Is it just me, or is there zero reason to take Tesla Immortals or the Conclave of the Burning One any more?

Tesla Immortals can't snap fire, have no AP, and can't take a Stormtek with lightning field for withering overwatch anymore. Add to that Gauss has both anti-vehicle and anti T8+ now. The only advantage is marginally higher hit rate at long range.

Meanwhile the Conclave... Just take a God Shackle elsewhere in your army. 130 plus wargear is a horrendous tax on an already pricey model.

but the god shackle would tripple your C'tan (if it still works RAW)

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

 Anpu-adom wrote:
I'm sorry, Kangodo... that is the same argument that ultimately failed the last time. Unless it says that it changes the initiative penalty for assaulting into terrain, then it doesn't.

How do you mean with last time?

It says they treat all terrain as open ground.
Do I get a penalty for charging into open ground?

Read my post above please.

And his point is that he's not going through terrain, because with the 'Wraithflight' rule it's open ground.

It has to do more with where the fight is occurring then the how they got there. Without a rule specifically saying you ignore the PENALTY then you have to apply it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

 Anpu-adom wrote:
I'm sorry, Kangodo... that is the same argument that ultimately failed the last time. Unless it says that it changes the initiative penalty for assaulting into terrain, then it doesn't.

How do you mean with last time?

It says they treat all terrain as open ground.
Do I get a penalty for charging into open ground?

Read my post above please.

And his point is that he's not going through terrain, because with the 'Wraithflight' rule it's open ground.

It's not open ground though, just treated as open ground. That was the issue before like he said.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 undertow wrote:

 Skanktastic wrote:
Does the wording of wraithflight make it so we dotn lose int on charge through difficult ? Is charging just considered moving ?

Aren't beasts unaffected by difficult terrain, even when charging?

You still are reduced to Init 1 if you don't have grenades or stuff that says that your Init isn't reduced.

If you "treat difficult as open terrain" how would you be reduced to I1? Open terrain does not reduce initiative.

Check page 47 of your rulebook please.

"...if at least one model of a assaulting unit goes through a difficult terrain during its charge, All the models in the unit attacks at initiative 1, without any concerne about Initiative modifiers; and even if the assaulting unit isn't slowed down by difficult terrain..."

The only thing that permits you to use your full init is grenades, are Wraiths equipped with Nades?, NO, thank you kind sir.

The only thing that this rule does is that they don't have a -2 on their assault distance.

Exept their own rule outright states they DIDN'T move throught difficult terrain, thus rendering any rule that comes into effect as a result of moving through difficult terrain never comes into play in the first place.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

 Anpu-adom wrote:
I'm sorry, Kangodo... that is the same argument that ultimately failed the last time. Unless it says that it changes the initiative penalty for assaulting into terrain, then it doesn't.

How do you mean with last time?

It says they treat all terrain as open ground.
Do I get a penalty for charging into open ground?

Read my post above please.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 undertow wrote:

 Skanktastic wrote:
Does the wording of wraithflight make it so we dotn lose int on charge through difficult ? Is charging just considered moving ?

Aren't beasts unaffected by difficult terrain, even when charging?

You still are reduced to Init 1 if you don't have grenades or stuff that says that your Init isn't reduced.

If you "treat difficult as open terrain" how would you be reduced to I1? Open terrain does not reduce initiative.

Check page 47 of your rulebook please.

"...if at least one model of a assaulting unit goes through a difficult terrain during its charge, All the models in the unit attacks at initiative 1, without any concerne about Initiative modifiers; and even if the assaulting unit isn't slowed down by difficult terrain..."

So now you agree with me? That is exactly the line I'm using to support my stance. They didn't move through difficult terrain. They moved through open ground. They treat all difficult terrain as open ground.

If the thing says that they still are affected by it even if they arn't slowed down by terrain, then it is.

Riiiiiight. But that's not what it says. It doesn't say they aren't slowed. It doesn't say they are or aren't affected. It says "when moving treat as open ground." If I'm treating it as open ground and open ground does not reduce initiative, then my iniitiative is not lowered.

Compare that with the beasts rules (who most definitely are reduced to I1 if they charge through difficult). It says ignore movement penalties or some such. This is very different wording to anything in the past.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Read my post above please.

I did, you keep mentioning terrain.
But Wraiths don't know what that is, they treat all of it as open ground.
Does open ground reduce initiative when you charge through it?

changemod wrote:
It also only has three relics total, which may be why it didn't ban them from the main book.
Anyhow: Is it just me, or is there zero reason to take Tesla Immortals or the Conclave of the Burning One any more?
Tesla Immortals can't snap fire, have no AP, and can't take a Stormtek with lightning field for withering overwatch anymore. Add to that Gauss has both anti-vehicle and anti T8+ now. The only advantage is marginally higher hit rate at long range.
Meanwhile the Conclave... Just take a God Shackle elsewhere in your army. 130 plus wargear is a horrendous tax on an already pricey model.

But it has a ban, I quoted it.
I think Tesla Immortals still have a place against Hordes.

The Conclave was nice, but is really subpar now.
The tax is too brutal but it's the only way to get the God Shackle unless you ally in a small Mephrit-Detachment which is impossible with the requirements.

Their Wraithflight says THEY count the terrain AS open, not that the terrain is open, so no.

What the heck do you guiys want?, they are allready good enough has is and you still want them to ignore rules because you feel like it?

The rule page 47, is pretty clear,"... even if the unit isn't slowed down by terrain..."..., wich apply to the Wraithflight, Bikes and Beasts/Cavalery.

 Galorian wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 undertow wrote:

 Skanktastic wrote:
Does the wording of wraithflight make it so we dotn lose int on charge through difficult ? Is charging just considered moving ?

Aren't beasts unaffected by difficult terrain, even when charging?

You still are reduced to Init 1 if you don't have grenades or stuff that says that your Init isn't reduced.

If you "treat difficult as open terrain" how would you be reduced to I1? Open terrain does not reduce initiative.

Check page 47 of your rulebook please.

"...if at least one model of a assaulting unit goes through a difficult terrain during its charge, All the models in the unit attacks at initiative 1, without any concerne about Initiative modifiers; and even if the assaulting unit isn't slowed down by difficult terrain..."

The only thing that permits you to use your full init is grenades, are Wraiths equipped with Nades?, NO, thank you kind sir.

The only thing that this rule does is that they don't have a -2 on their assault distance.

Exept their own rule outright states they DIDN'T move throught difficult terrain, thus rendering any rule that comes into effect as a result of moving through difficult terrain never comes into play in the first place.

Thats not what it says at all actually.

Guys wait for the actual book. Then take it up in YMDC.

Doesn't matter how many times a C'tan can shoot, it's still most likely dead on Turn 1.

4 wounds at 7 Toughness with only a 4++ save just means you get to roll a lot of dice against wounds that still kill you. Every army runs spam guns.

beasts says "not slowed by"

Wraithflight says " As if it were open ground"

there is a BIG difference between not being slowed by (stuff) and treating (stuff) as non existent.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Doesn't matter how many times a C'tan can shoot, it's still most likely dead on Turn 1.

4 wounds at 7 Toughness with only a 4++ save just means you get to roll a lot of dice against wounds that still kill you. Every army runs spam guns.

Hide him behind something. Or reserve him and let him out through the eternity gate ... in the current rules form you can shock a monlith and use the eternity gate the same turn (it is in the faq)

Ugh can you guys just like wait until the Codex is actually out to have a pages long semantic debate.

I wanna talk about how awesome Deathmarks and Tomb Blades are now. Ignore Cover Gauss Weaponry, yessssssssssss. Deep STriking units that shoot other deep striking units, yesssssssss.

 docdoom77 wrote:

Riiiiiight. But that's not what it says. It doesn't say they aren't slowed. It doesn't say they are or aren't affected. It says "when moving treat as open ground." If I'm treating it as open ground and open ground does not reduce initiative, then my iniitiative is not lowered.

Compare that with the beasts rules (who most definitely are reduced to I1 if they charge through difficult). It says ignore movement penalties or some such. This is very different wording to anything in the past.

Different wording, same thing.

plus they still assault a unit that is IN the Terrain, and not a single thing changes that fact.

is like the fething Gravtard argument all over again...

 Henker-Kind wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Doesn't matter how many times a C'tan can shoot, it's still most likely dead on Turn 1.

4 wounds at 7 Toughness with only a 4++ save just means you get to roll a lot of dice against wounds that still kill you. Every army runs spam guns.

Hide him behind something.

With true line of sight and a 6" move, that is a tricky prospect.

It's going to come down to semantics . . .

does moving "as if" hammer over what the model is factually moving through?