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1) no more crisis suits as troops, move them to HQ slot and limit you to 1 squad per hq slot choice

2) broadsides need a price jack

3) riptide moves to walker, can no longer be effected by markerlights

5) focused fire is only triggered on the result of a 6 which you role on a d6 for each unit you elect to focus fire with

That seems unnecessarily unfair.
Crisis suits only unlocked with HQ = very little anti tank
3 broadsides are 205 how much more should we pay?
Riptide walker only if all suits are, otherwise it's singling one thing out which seems a bit unfair. How would you even set up no markers for it.
Support fire I kind of agree with, but a different method.
Also, where's 4?

 ionusx wrote:
1) no more crisis suits as troops, move them to HQ slot and limit you to 1 squad per hq slot choice

So the elite section will only be Riptides and Stealth suits. Yeah. That will give people less incentive to take max number of Riptides. Also limiting the use of one of the staple and most iconic units in the army can only be a good thing, right? I wish there was a font for sarcasm.

3) riptide moves to walker, can no longer be effected by markerlights

Why? Walker, I can kind of see. If the environment wasn't littered with everything getting the MC treatment over walkers. But why take away it's ability to use markerlights? I could see this if you're willing to limit a lot of units from getting Divination buffs.

Leave things in the codex mostly the same, just charge what they are really worth. Ie, riptide gets a huge price increase.

Martel732 wrote:
Leave things in the codex mostly the same, just charge what they are really worth. Ie, riptide gets a huge price increase.

How much do you think a Riptide should be worth?

Martel732 wrote:
Leave things in the codex mostly the same, just charge what they are really worth. Ie, riptide gets a huge price increase.

I'm not sure it needs a huge price increase. IA certainly does, though.

What I would suggest though is removing JSJ. Having such a durable platform with that much mobility seems wrong to me.

 vipoid wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Leave things in the codex mostly the same, just charge what they are really worth. Ie, riptide gets a huge price increase.

I'm not sure it needs a huge price increase. IA certainly does, though.

What I would suggest though is removing JSJ. Having such a durable platform with that much mobility seems wrong to me.

It has far too much durability for its current cost. It needs some increase and the IA needs a huge increase. The IA invalidates 3/4 of BA codex! Elite infantry? They're all dead! Look at that!

Martel732 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Leave things in the codex mostly the same, just charge what they are really worth. Ie, riptide gets a huge price increase.

I'm not sure it needs a huge price increase. IA certainly does, though.

What I would suggest though is removing JSJ. Having such a durable platform with that much mobility seems wrong to me.

It has far too much durability for its current cost. It needs some increase and the IA needs a huge increase. The IA invalidates 3/4 of BA codex! Elite infantry? They're all dead! Look at that!

Just as a curiosity: are there any other AP2 pie plates in this game? I can't think of any.

LordBlades wrote:
Just as a curiosity: are there any other AP2 pie plates in this game? I can't think of any.

Demolisher Cannons (though, those have 1/3 of the range and are on platforms that are both less mobile and less durable).

Orbital Strikes are AP2, I believe. Though, they're once per game attacks.

I think everyone is overestimating the riptide. What I mean is, its reputation precedes it. Its not super amazing, just good, and really tough, so people piss their pants and fire everything at it,
so its just a massive sponge if used properly, whereas if people stop going " OMG!!! RIPTIDE!!!" and just shoot at the rest of the army, it wouldn't be that good on its own.
Also, the Knights are, in my opinion, a lot better, imperial and maybe wraith.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
I think everyone is overestimating the riptide. What I mean is, its reputation precedes it. Its not super amazing, just good, and really tough, so people piss their pants and fire everything at it,
so its just a massive sponge if used properly, whereas if people stop going " OMG!!! RIPTIDE!!!" and just shoot at the rest of the army, it wouldn't be that good on its own.
Also, the Knights are, in my opinion, a lot better, imperial and maybe wraith.

As a Riptide user, IMO the problem is not the Riptide but the IA. For a mere 5 points you get an 'you shall not use elite infantry within 72" of this unit' gun. It's not too shabby vs other stuff as well (S7 AP2 Heavy 3 with Markerlight support can put the hurt on most vehicles) and completely destroys a playstyle.

HBC Riptide is fine I think (although if it were after me the EWO would cost more than 5 points too).

Hey look another thread on Tau hate! What fun!

Stop whining, other codex's have plenty of OPness, don't see anyone complaining about Imperial Knights.

Tau is not over-power it simply has great synergy within itself. JSJ is not a rule unique to Tau all jet pack units have it. The riptide It is a giant mech with a jet pack, why would it not be nimble, because its large? Does not mean that it wouldn't be fast as hell. Why would I giant mech, the pinnacle of Tau tech not be able to access marker lights? That is just dumb. The walker thing I sort of agree with, but then it would be even harder to kill. It would most likely be 13/12/10 or maybe even 14/12/11, which means that it would be immune to small arm fire. I have lost a rip tide to a large hail of small arms fire in a single round of shooting while a dreadnought with 13 front armour survives the entire game after many volleys of fire.

Supporting fire. Meh, it can be strong at times, but most of the time its garbage. Ive only ever had it happen once where I scored more than 6 hits in total from SF and only 3 of those wounded. Sure it was great that time, I cannot even fathom the number of times SF amounted to nothing. SF is essential to Tau because its a dissuading factor on charging us. But guess what?! Your imperial guardsmen grandmother gets into mêlée with a Tau unit and it she will go through them like a hot knife through butter.

If you are having trouble with Tau don't blame the other side, check yourself and adjust your strategy. I have a few friends who are quite excellent players and they table me constantly when I play Tau. Not once have I said "your codex is OP, you won from cheese." Know why? because I realized I made mistakes and needed to make adjustments. Even with adjustments I have one friend, a SW player, who I simply cannot beat, I never even get close. How does he do it? He goes after my weakness, melee.

As for the AP-2 Pie plate, the riptide takes two gets-hot risks to launch that shot. Once through nova-charge, and once through over-charging. That's 2 wounds. I have seen Riptides killing themselves trying to nova/over charge.

Once over-watch is used up Tau are defenseless. Another great tactic is drop pods. Tau cannot handle a mass of marines coming out with flamers and killing our markerlight drones/ pathfinders.

As a not about Tau's abundance of special equipment.... hate to say it but so does every other codex! How? Through psychic powers. Tau's gear is a way of over-coming that lacking. We only get 1 deny the witch so why shouldn't we have gear to compensate for this lacking of ability? Do you want Tau to bend over a barrel and let you steam roll us, or do you want a fair fight? Because all this whining sounds like you got sour grapes.

I understand the abundance of skyfire on our suits, but that is an upgrade that costs as much as 1 suit, which means the presence on the ground is diminished by taking that upgrade. Broadsides certainly should be able to take it because they can act as our anti air platform as a heavy unit. Without that support gear Tau would only have 1 decent method of dealing with air... and only with 6 shots. (skyray)

Also suits as troops are a supplement, and unlike these new codex's coming out Tau do not get formations. Some of these formations give entire units an invulnerable save, feel no pain, and a list of other special rules. Waaaaaghing every turn?! (which is awesome by the way, love the green tide). Eldar have the same thing with their supplement, so leave Tau alone. Frankly from a fluff perspective it makes sense, and let's me run my code geas list.

So no, Tau do not need to be nerfed, GW just needs to get better codex writers to give other armies the same level of synergy the Tau army does. I think the level of balance is perfect in the codex, though a rip-tide may be slightly undercosted. I think GW needs to create a scale system (or a better one) of how to allocate cost to units. I think it will do away with much of this "OP giant unit" phase that the hobby is going through.

Also food for thought, what do you think happens if Tau gets nerved into oblivion? Your going to have Tau players whining for years about how weak they are and unfair the nerfs are, then... if someone doesn't go on a rampage and murder everyone at GW for the greater good first, the next codex will give them a significant buff and the cycle will repeat again.

 Mr.bacon wrote:

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
I play orks.

So at range : no melta, no lance, no ignore cover, no access to anti armor grenades expect in tank bustas, no poison . Some one on the first page mentioned that every army has access to above mentioned things. So wanted to get that off my chest =p

Now as for tau. I think even as an ork, they are fine. I've lost to them plenty. Bit now I realized the loses were more due to my army that theirs.

Just had a game were I faced 3 riptides. Killed 2 with my shooting and finished the third off in cc.

Tau have a few weakness. First high armor if you screen it right from meltas. Armor 13 and 14 is rough for them. Second the mission. If they have to get and hold objectives , make sure you place objectives to where they have to advance. Again as an ork in place as many objectives as I can mid field. Third they rely on key units. Take them out first. Example if I can hurt the missile sides or kil a few quickly, it's a lot easier. If you can take out their marker lights do it.

My in game experience says they are rough , but can be handled.

Do you own a gorkaught or morknaught named mom? I literally just watched a game where an ork player played against 3 riptide tau with farsighted and won. He brought 60 boys. Weird.

what are the arguments for why the tau army isn't cheesy again? I honestly don't know. Also it would be nice if they weren't immune to blind I mean ist a rule specifically designed against shorting armies but tau get to ignore it. It would be nice if the riptide would be fixed also maybe they can go a little easy on the strength 7 spam you know I so running rhinos aren't useless.

ha ha yes. The morkanuaght is orange named pappa. My Gorkanaught I run is named momma.

"GW just needs to get better codex writers to give other armies the same level of synergy the Tau army does"

The ship has already sailed on that. The other codices are written. The only option left is to nerf the parts of the Tau that ruin entire army concepts by just existing.

Martel732 wrote:
"GW just needs to get better codex writers to give other armies the same level of synergy the Tau army does"

The ship has already sailed on that. The other codices are written. The only option left is to nerf the parts of the Tau that ruin entire army concepts by just existing.

That ship has already sailed too. There are plenty of written codices with parts that ruin entire army compositions.

In the end striving for balance in a GW game is swimming against the current unfortunately (although it's been getting a bit better lately)

Stop whining, other codex's have plenty of OPness, don't see anyone complaining about Imperial Knights

Because the IK aren't all that.

Tau is not over-power it simply has great synergy within itself. JSJ is not a rule unique to Tau all jet pack units have it.

No, they don't. The Tau have it, Eldar Jetbikes have it and... Warp Spiders (?) have a variant of it that can cause the loss of a model in the squad (and, also, the direction is random), iirc.

As a not about Tau's abundance of special equipment.... hate to say it but so does every other codex! How? Through psychic powers. Tau's gear is a way of over-coming that lacking. We only get 1 deny the witch so why shouldn't we have gear to compensate for this lacking of ability? Do you want Tau to bend over a barrel and let you steam roll us, or do you want a fair fight? Because all this whining sounds like you got sour grapes.

Sisters, Tyranids, Necrons and BT have no psykers outside of alliances. A fair fight would be grand. Tau don't generally offer one.

Once over-watch is used up Tau are defenseless. Another great tactic is drop pods. Tau cannot handle a mass of marines coming out with flamers and killing our markerlight drones/ pathfinders.

Not every army gets drop-pods without allies. A lot of your suggestions seem to be "buy another army to beat Tau!"... which should tell you something.

And the thing about Overwatch (and supporting fire) is that you can deny a unit the ability to charge you. Take casualties from the front and, oh look, their charge failed... shoot 'em again!

Shaso_Keo wrote:
Hey look another thread on Tau hate! What fun!

Stop whining, other codex's have plenty of OPness, don't see anyone complaining about Imperial Knights.

You really don't see people complaining about Imperial Knights on this forum?
They get as much flakk as eldar, easily.

Shaso_Keo wrote:

Tau is not over-power it simply has great synergy within itself. JSJ is not a rule unique to Tau all jet pack units have it. The riptide It is a giant mech with a jet pack, why would it not be nimble, because its large? Does not mean that it wouldn't be fast as hell. Why would I giant mech, the pinnacle of Tau tech not be able to access marker lights? That is just dumb. The walker thing I sort of agree with, but then it would be even harder to kill. It would most likely be 13/12/10 or maybe even 14/12/11, which means that it would be immune to small arm fire. I have lost a rip tide to a large hail of small arms fire in a single round of shooting while a dreadnought with 13 front armour survives the entire game after many volleys of fire.

How many armies have access to JSJ?
The riptide can not be nimble, extremely durable, and possess so much firepower because game balance is a thing.
If you think dreadnoughts are tougher than riptides, I don't even know what to say. Riptides are one of the most durable units in the game, while dreadnoughts die relatively quickly. A podding unit of wolves can one round a dreadnought pretty reliably, the same is not true for riptides.

Shaso_Keo wrote:

Supporting fire. Meh, it can be strong at times, but most of the time its garbage. Ive only ever had it happen once where I scored more than 6 hits in total from SF and only 3 of those wounded. Sure it was great that time, I cannot even fathom the number of times SF amounted to nothing. SF is essential to Tau because its a dissuading factor on charging us. But guess what?! Your imperial guardsmen grandmother gets into mêlée with a Tau unit and it she will go through them like a hot knife through butter.

Providing they can reach the Tau lines, which JSJ, support fire, and being able to use marker lights in overwatch, all help to deter. Let's run some numbers
Assume 10 Firewarriors (it's an easy number to work with)
20 shots, 3 hits, 2 wounds, no saves against orks. 1 Markerlight and this number doubles, support fire causes it to double as well.
Removing 4-6 orks from a charge is often enough to reduce it 3-4", which is big in a charge. Remember, kills are removed from the closest back. If it fails you are in rapid fire range and will most likely be obliterated.

Shaso_Keo wrote:

If you are having trouble with Tau don't blame the other side, check yourself and adjust your strategy. I have a few friends who are quite excellent players and they table me constantly when I play Tau. Not once have I said "your codex is OP, you won from cheese." Know why? because I realized I made mistakes and needed to make adjustments. Even with adjustments I have one friend, a SW player, who I simply cannot beat, I never even get close. How does he do it? He goes after my weakness, melee.

I play SW as my main army, and their TWC are uniquely positioned to be one of the few units that can reach melee reliably.
To be fair, I own a Tau army, I don't play it because people blame my wins on the codex even though I don't own a riptide. i don't have massive issues winning against Tau, but it is a very boring game that is over by turn 2. Either I crippled enough of their firepower to win, or I haven't and we are going through the motions.

Shaso_Keo wrote:

As for the AP-2 Pie plate, the riptide takes two gets-hot risks to launch that shot. Once through nova-charge, and once through over-charging. That's 2 wounds. I have seen Riptides killing themselves trying to nova/over charge.

2 wounds they can save against to eliminate a unit on a model that has multiple wounds and a massive range?
There is a reason Triptide is a thing

Shaso_Keo wrote:

Once over-watch is used up Tau are defenseless. Another great tactic is drop pods. Tau cannot handle a mass of marines coming out with flamers and killing our markerlight drones/ pathfinders

Drop pods are amazing, no one doubts that. Sternguard in there will cause some serious damage to Tau, but the game is basically decided early on then. Either you cripple the tau player enough, or they unleash hell on your troops and kill whatever you have left on the board in subsequent turns. Given how cheap they are compared to marines, firewarriors have a distinct advantage here over them.

Shaso_Keo wrote:

As a not about Tau's abundance of special equipment.... hate to say it but so does every other codex! How? Through psychic powers. Tau's gear is a way of over-coming that lacking. We only get 1 deny the witch so why shouldn't we have gear to compensate for this lacking of ability? Do you want Tau to bend over a barrel and let you steam roll us, or do you want a fair fight? Because all this whining sounds like you got sour grapes.

Because psychic powers are random, do not always work, and you may not even get them?
Compared to gear, which always works and has a comparable cost?

Shaso_Keo wrote:

I understand the abundance of skyfire on our suits, but that is an upgrade that costs as much as 1 suit, which means the presence on the ground is diminished by taking that upgrade. Broadsides certainly should be able to take it because they can act as our anti air platform as a heavy unit. Without that support gear Tau would only have 1 decent method of dealing with air... and only with 6 shots. (skyray)

Most armies do not have a reliable way to deal with air at all, unless you count Flakk missiles.

Shaso_Keo wrote:

Also suits as troops are a supplement, and unlike these new codex's coming out Tau do not get formations. Some of these formations give entire units an invulnerable save, feel no pain, and a list of other special rules. Waaaaaghing every turn?! (which is awesome by the way, love the green tide). Eldar have the same thing with their supplement, so leave Tau alone. Frankly from a fluff perspective it makes sense, and let's me run my code geas list.

I wouldn't compare to Eldar to come off as balanced, but I don't mind crisis suits as troops. They are a very cool unit and I'm all for it.

Shaso_Keo wrote:

So no, Tau do not need to be nerfed, GW just needs to get better codex writers to give other armies the same level of synergy the Tau army does. I think the level of balance is perfect in the codex, though a rip-tide may be slightly undercosted. I think GW needs to create a scale system (or a better one) of how to allocate cost to units. I think it will do away with much of this "OP giant unit" phase that the hobby is going through.

That train left the station.

Shaso_Keo wrote:

Also food for thought, what do you think happens if Tau gets nerved into oblivion? Your going to have Tau players whining for years about how weak they are and unfair the nerfs are, then... if someone doesn't go on a rampage and murder everyone at GW for the greater good first, the next codex will give them a significant buff and the cycle will repeat again.

Nobody is asking for oblivion levels of nerfing, just a slight reduction in some of the more...extreme elements.

Just so I have a clear picture of this, can the suits do the 2D6 movement in movement and assault, cause I thought it was just assault, and they move like normal dudes in the movement phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

Shaso_Keo wrote:

Supporting fire. Meh, it can be strong at times, but most of the time its garbage. Ive only ever had it happen once where I scored more than 6 hits in total from SF and only 3 of those wounded. Sure it was great that time, I cannot even fathom the number of times SF amounted to nothing. SF is essential to Tau because its a dissuading factor on charging us. But guess what?! Your imperial guardsmen grandmother gets into mêlée with a Tau unit and it she will go through them like a hot knife through butter.

Providing they can reach the Tau lines, which JSJ, support fire, and being able to use marker lights in overwatch, all help to deter. Let's run some numbers
Assume 10 Firewarriors (it's an easy number to work with)
20 shots, 3 hits, 2 wounds, no saves against orks. 1 Markerlight and this number doubles, support fire causes it to double as well.
Removing 4-6 orks from a charge is often enough to reduce it 3-4", which is big in a charge. Remember, kills are removed from the closest back. If it fails you are in rapid fire range and will most likely be obliterated.

Actually, marker lights don't help over watch, iirc, and also, with it being sixes to hit, no amount of supporting fire will help that much. and, imo, if losing a few models loses you the charge, you were probably gonna fail it anyway and need an extra movement phase to close the distance.

Markerlights do work on OW.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Just so I have a clear picture of this, can the suits do the 2D6 movement in movement and assault, cause I thought it was just assault, and they move like normal dudes in the movement phase.

6" move in the movement phase and 2d6 in the assault phase. In the movement phase they get to ignore intervening terrain and only take a DT test if they land on dangerous/difficult terrain.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Just so I have a clear picture of this, can the suits do the 2D6 movement in movement and assault, cause I thought it was just assault, and they move like normal dudes in the movement phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

Shaso_Keo wrote:

Supporting fire. Meh, it can be strong at times, but most of the time its garbage. Ive only ever had it happen once where I scored more than 6 hits in total from SF and only 3 of those wounded. Sure it was great that time, I cannot even fathom the number of times SF amounted to nothing. SF is essential to Tau because its a dissuading factor on charging us. But guess what?! Your imperial guardsmen grandmother gets into mêlée with a Tau unit and it she will go through them like a hot knife through butter.

Providing they can reach the Tau lines, which JSJ, support fire, and being able to use marker lights in overwatch, all help to deter. Let's run some numbers
Assume 10 Firewarriors (it's an easy number to work with)
20 shots, 3 hits, 2 wounds, no saves against orks. 1 Markerlight and this number doubles, support fire causes it to double as well.
Removing 4-6 orks from a charge is often enough to reduce it 3-4", which is big in a charge. Remember, kills are removed from the closest back. If it fails you are in rapid fire range and will most likely be obliterated.

Actually, marker lights don't help over watch, iirc, and also, with it being sixes to hit, no amount of supporting fire will help that much. and, imo, if losing a few models loses you the charge, you were probably gonna fail it anyway and need an extra movement phase to close the distance.

Marker lights do indeed work with over watch.
Charges are random on a 2d6, with the average being a 7. Losing 3-4 models can result in you losing half of your charge distance, since your first line is wiped out, and most people space their models out to minimize the damage taken from blast weapons.
Especially against tau, because riptides.

For some units, beasts especially, this isn't a big deal, but for others it's a big deal, I can assure you.

There's nothing wrong with the tau army. The problem is certain players. If all they do is spam missile broadsides and riptides, suck it up and don't play them.

I honestly don't get these threads sometimes.
Let's break it down to a simple way to look at it.

1.) GW makes terribly inconsistent rules. Some armies are good, some better, some worse. Some have synergy within their book others are designed to use BB and allies. Nerfing one of the better books doesn't fix this problem. Comparing a good book to one of the lesser books doesn't work due to the inconsistency. If one book is bad, the solution would be to ramp the army up rather than slow one down and not others.

2.) The core rules are a mess. Before anyone says anything to the contrary, look up Missile Lock. It was in 6th and it's in 7th with updated wording. To my knowledge not a single unit has missile lock except the DA flyer which got it removed in both editions.
I digress. The bigger issue is that assault is just hosed up and it has been since 6th. Yes, Tau do get to double up on their assault defenses, but this is overall a bigger problem with the rules in general.

The Tau are good as a single book. The IoM is a good series of books with lots of options. Nids, Orks, Necrons, and DE don't have options for everything like the higher tier armies do have. What makes more sense though? Removing options from armies to make them less competitive on the higher end of armies or giving lower end armies options to deal with higher end armies?

As a Tau player, the issue with the Riptide is the IA. More specifically, the opportunity cost to get the Str 8/AP 2 pie plate. They get access to that great weapon AND can still get the upgraded move or upgraded invlun. That seems over the top to me. No one complains about the Burstide because it has to sacrifice the move or save to get the weapon upgrade. Make the IA 20 points and give access to the pie plate only with the Nova and I think the gun becomes more reasonable. As someone who likes to run a Burstide, it definitely makes you play more strategically than with the Iontide. Maybe they could also experiment with changing the ranges on both guns to make them more equal.

 ionusx wrote:
1) no more crisis suits as troops, move them to HQ slot and limit you to 1 squad per hq slot choice

Crisis suits with troops is only with FE, not with the base codex. Just get rid of FE. Then it's a maximum of 3 teams of 3. It's like 18 marines with heavy weapons and jetpacks.

 ionusx wrote:

2) broadsides need a price jack

HYMP need a price jack. And HRR either need to be made railguns again, or improved in some way.

 ionusx wrote:

3) riptide moves to walker, can no longer be effected by markerlights

I kind of agree, but I think there are better ways

 ionusx wrote:

5) focused fire is only triggered on the result of a 6 which you role on a d6 for each unit you elect to focus fire with

At that point wouldn't it be better to just get rid of it. I wouldn't mind.

 juraigamer wrote:
There's nothing wrong with the tau army. The problem is certain players. If all they do is spam missile broadsides and riptides, suck it up and don't play them.

If those units being spammed is a problem, they should cost more points.

Martel732 wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
There's nothing wrong with the tau army. The problem is certain players. If all they do is spam missile broadsides and riptides, suck it up and don't play them.

If those units being spammed is a problem, they should cost more points.

Unit spam is not a codex problem, it's a 40k FoC format issue. You want less spam, reduce the amount of slots or do like fantasy and limit how many of a single choice you can take at various points levels.

 Coyote81 wrote:
Unit spam is not a codex problem, it's a 40k FoC format issue. You want less spam, reduce the amount of slots or do like fantasy and limit how many of a single choice you can take at various points levels.

No, it's a codex problem. There shouldn't be anything wrong with taking lots of copies of the same unit, and arbitrary WFHB-style restrictions are bad for both fluff and list-building creativity. The only reason that spam is a problem is that GW refuses to care about codex balance and creates units that are clearly better than the alternatives.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Coyote81 wrote:
Unit spam is not a codex problem, it's a 40k FoC format issue. You want less spam, reduce the amount of slots or do like fantasy and limit how many of a single choice you can take at various points levels.

No, it's a codex problem. There shouldn't be anything wrong with taking lots of copies of the same unit, and arbitrary WFHB-style restrictions are bad for both fluff and list-building creativity. The only reason that spam is a problem is that GW refuses to care about codex balance and creates units that are clearly better than the alternatives.

That is the world of mathhammer. There will always be units that are mathematically better then their counterparts. Thus people will learn this second hand (Spammers usually aren't the mathhamemers to be honest, they're the netlist takers), and then they will spam that unit, arguing it's mathematical superiority until the end of time. The only way to limit spam is limiting individual quantities of units that can be taken.

"There will always be units that are mathematically better then their counterparts"

This is not true in games like Starcraft. There is no excuse in any game, really. Just sloppiness and bad math skills.