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Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Again the 3++ save is not a guarantee, its not an auto invulnerable save so you should stop treating it like it is. And sorry you are incorrect, x3 Twin Linked small blasts which means you can re-reroll the scatter, are much more accurate and will do more damage then a single large template that will scatter and potentially get hot.

I've had them both used against me... a lot. The small templates are a dumpster fire. They don't do the damage of the Tau template, especially when its ignoring cover. And I can get the WK off the board three times as quickly.

The 3++ is close enough of a guarantee for me.

Its not though, and you may be the only person I have heard or seen who claims the Wraithknight is outclassed by the Riptide.

Isn't the riptide out-classed in some areas by MCs or standard Walkers or similar size or wound - hullpoint ratio like Trygons, Mawlocs and Orkanauts ?

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Again the 3++ save is not a guarantee, its not an auto invulnerable save so you should stop treating it like it is. And sorry you are incorrect, x3 Twin Linked small blasts which means you can re-reroll the scatter, are much more accurate and will do more damage then a single large template that will scatter and potentially get hot.

I've had them both used against me... a lot. The small templates are a dumpster fire. They don't do the damage of the Tau template, especially when its ignoring cover. And I can get the WK off the board three times as quickly.

The 3++ is close enough of a guarantee for me.

Its not though, and you may be the only person I have heard or seen who claims the Wraithknight is outclassed by the Riptide.

Really? I find that very interesting. It's not even that close in my mind.

Super post time! This thread has gone off the deep end. Also, I feel that someone doesn't understand the Riptide fully. For example:

rigeld2 wrote:

xsharkmanx wrote:
@ rigeld2
and again im amused^^
we are clearly talking about the same definitions but pls take in you rconsideration that these flying monsters kost a lot less and are a lot more mobile.

They're not that much mobile. They move between 12 and 24" a turn but can only turn 90 degrees. A Riptide moves between 13 and 18 inches a turn, the majority of that in the Assault phase, and can move in any direction it wishes.

Martel732 wrote:
The formations all have fatal flaws, imo. I'd take any of the on with my plain old Baal Strikeforce formatoin.

But what I can't take on is Eldar and Tau making me pick up 25+ marines every turn.

There is no reason to ever use the BA book over regular marines unless you already own them like I do.

My DA feel you here.

Wraith knights are close combat beasts....so typical they are moving forward. Plus 36 inch main guns kinda means they have to move forward. They can probably find cover mid feild but still rockets are very effective at killing wraith knights when they aren't in cover. Laz cannons are even better. Takes 40 Laz cannons at bs 4 to kill a riptide out in the open. Wraith knight only takes about 16 (very dooable.) Dread knight takes even less 10-11.
Lets take into account that dread knights and wraith knights are close combat oriented units with weapons 1/2 to 1/3 the range of a riptide yet the riptide more than twice as survivable?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Wraith knights are close combat beasts....so typical they are moving forward. Plus 36 inch main guns kinda means they have to move forward. They can probably find cover mid feild but still rockets are very effective at killing wraith knights when they aren't in cover. Laz cannons are even better. Takes 40 Laz cannons at bs 4 to kill a riptide out in the open. Wraith knight only takes about 16 (very dooable.) Dread knight takes even less 10-11.
Lets take into account that dread knights and wraith knights are close combat oriented units with weapons 1/2 to 1/3 the range of a riptide yet the riptide more than twice as survivable?

Whete do you get 40 shots for Riptide and 10-11 for Dreadknight
Are you by any chance comparing a Schrödinger's Riptide with FnP that succeeds every time on Nova Charge and always opts for 3+ to a Dreadknight that never uses Sanctuary?

Martel732 wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
I must admit this one also alludes me.
A wraithknight is stronger than IA riptide in every form.
Is it better PRE POINT? that's another question. but one-for-one there is no contest there.
Not to mention three wraiths to two tides.

No, it's not. Its armor blocks half as many wounds and also penetrated by additional weapons. It also lacks 3++ save. Why do you think the WK is scary? It's very meh in my experience. Naked Sternguard make the WK very sad, whereas the Riptide laughs at naked Sternguard.

I don't care who wins in a head to head. I'm talking vs all comers. The WK is not even close to the IA Riptide.

As said a bazilion times,not only 3++ is not a grantee, you have to set it up the previus turn (as in, you anticipated the attack to come ahead of even rolling for reserves and whatnot), and might hurt the riptide rather than shield it.

Also, while the riptides armor save blocks twice as much, its T value means nearly every weapon in the game deals twice as many wound, or more, that needs to be blocked to begin with.
AP3 weapons with S value of 5 or higher are NOT very common on the competitive level, nor is poison. but nearly anything else deals as much or more damage to riptide than to a wraithknight.
When you add the fact the wraithknight's gun outclasses the riptide's, he has more base wounds, he deals no self inflicted damage, he punks nearly anything CC (while the riptide is going to have a bad time against even tac marines) and he is all but immune to mental attacks (ld targeting weapons, moral checks, etc) while the riptide is about the most mental vulnerable MC in the game, per model-the wraithknight is far ahead.

With the FnP upgrade the riptide will be closer to the wraithknight's durability, even tougher in some cases-but the price gap will be very small assuming no other upgrades but ion (20 points, less than 10% of the price), and the wraithknight will still have superior firepower, superior mental defense and absurdly superior CC.
The wraithknight is, by all means, superior to the riptide. its only problem is the fact that he does not get supported as good as riptides can, but that ofcourse is additional points that are required.
And the fact he pays for both great firepower, and great CC-but can't really do both at once.
The IA riptide only wins at ranges, and on standard table 48" guns might as well be 60", it will hardly ever matter.

LordBlades wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Wraith knights are close combat beasts....so typical they are moving forward. Plus 36 inch main guns kinda means they have to move forward. They can probably find cover mid feild but still rockets are very effective at killing wraith knights when they aren't in cover. Laz cannons are even better. Takes 40 Laz cannons at bs 4 to kill a riptide out in the open. Wraith knight only takes about 16 (very dooable.) Dread knight takes even less 10-11.
Lets take into account that dread knights and wraith knights are close combat oriented units with weapons 1/2 to 1/3 the range of a riptide yet the riptide more than twice as survivable?

Whete do you get 40 shots for Riptide and 10-11 for Dreadknight
Are you by any chance comparing a Schrödinger's Riptide with FnP that succeeds every time on Nova Charge and always opts for 3+ to a Dreadknight that never uses Sanctuary?

5 wounds 3++ save and 5+ FNP. Assuming you are str 8 ap 2 or better. The riptide only takes 22% of those wounds. Formula is simple - Riptide takes 22% of wounds 3+ save and 5+ fnp = 22% wounds taken. BS4 = 67% hit. 2+ to wound = 83% wound. .22 x .67 x .83 = .12% chance of a las cannon causing a wound. So it seems to me that youll need something in the order of 40 laz cannon shots to kill it.
Sound crazy? plug 40 laz cannon shots into the formula. youll find on average 40 laz canons wont kill a riptide. 40 x .667 x .833 x .33 x .66 = 4.92. so 40 laz cannons statistically will fail to bring down the rip which has 5 wounds.
40 laz cannons shots is comparable to a 1500 point marine army shooting at it for like 5 straight turns straight....You see now why 3 of them are basically impossible to kill.

^Math^ Previously posted

Dreadknight math - how many laz cannons to kill a dreadknight in the open.
BS4 x 2+ Wound x Chance to fail 5++ save
.67x .83 x .66 = 36.7 = chance for laz cannon wound on a dread knight in the open. So thats 1/3 laz cannon shots roughly causing a wound to a dread knight that has 4 wounds. So it's simple math to figure that 12 laz cannon shots will kill the dread knight from there. the 10 or 11 number I got was do to poor math in my head. 12 is correct.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
I must admit this one also alludes me.
A wraithknight is stronger than IA riptide in every form.
Is it better PRE POINT? that's another question. but one-for-one there is no contest there.
Not to mention three wraiths to two tides.

No, it's not. Its armor blocks half as many wounds and also penetrated by additional weapons. It also lacks 3++ save. Why do you think the WK is scary? It's very meh in my experience. Naked Sternguard make the WK very sad, whereas the Riptide laughs at naked Sternguard.

I don't care who wins in a head to head. I'm talking vs all comers. The WK is not even close to the IA Riptide.

As said a bazilion times,not only 3++ is not a grantee, you have to set it up the previus turn (as in, you anticipated the attack to come ahead of even rolling for reserves and whatnot), and might hurt the riptide rather than shield it.

Also, while the riptides armor save blocks twice as much, its T value means nearly every weapon in the game deals twice as many wound, or more, that needs to be blocked to begin with.
AP3 weapons with S value of 5 or higher are NOT very common on the competitive level, nor is poison. but nearly anything else deals as much or more damage to riptide than to a wraithknight.
When you add the fact the wraithknight's gun outclasses the riptide's, he has more base wounds, he deals no self inflicted damage, he punks nearly anything CC (while the riptide is going to have a bad time against even tac marines) and he is all but immune to mental attacks (ld targeting weapons, moral checks, etc) while the riptide is about the most mental vulnerable MC in the game, per model-the wraithknight is far ahead.

With the FnP upgrade the riptide will be closer to the wraithknight's durability, even tougher in some cases-but the price gap will be very small assuming no other upgrades but ion (20 points, less than 10% of the price), and the wraithknight will still have superior firepower, superior mental defense and absurdly superior CC.
The wraithknight is, by all means, superior to the riptide. its only problem is the fact that he does not get supported as good as riptides can, but that ofcourse is additional points that are required.
And the fact he pays for both great firepower, and great CC-but can't really do both at once.
The IA riptide only wins at ranges, and on standard table 48" guns might as well be 60", it will hardly ever matter.

The argument is not is a wraithknight more OP than a riptide - they are both extremely OP units. 2 str 10 ap 2 distort weapons from a wraith knight - this is a joke of balance - this thing is armed like a titan at 240 points. Facing each other the wraithknight wins easily cause one 6 and it's gone. This doesn't change the fact that the riptide is unable to be removed with non eldar shooting in standard game length.

I wasn't contesting the actual math but rather the principle behind it: you're comparing a Riptide that nova- charges every round successfully and always uses the charge for 3++ with a Dreadknight that doesn't do the same (successfully use Sanctuary every round).

"I need to call you out on this one. No power builds? They can take a formation and assault from drop pods turn 1. Oh, and have 3 stormravens filled with marines. Dante is a damn beatstick and will cleave holes into entire squads of just about anything with his i6 s6 ap2 melee weapon. The sanguinary guard getting cheaper and bigger squads means they're mean as heck too. 10 man unit with Dante and a priest will jump around the board eating faces. Heavy flamers in tac squads is amazing because now 10-man squads aren't forced to split and have 5 members sit back while the other 5 advance. "

None of those builds can hold the jock strap of the power codices. Tau and Eldar can easily defeat the lists you just rattled off. Get real. Three Stormraven filled with lame tactical marines? Who is that scaring? Oh, yeah, that's right, NO ONE.

"All the sternguard I've seen are 2x melta 3x combi-melta in a pod. Math time! "

I never use melta suicide sternguard in a pod. Therefore, there are not a benchmark for me. Play marine players that don't throw their 30 pts models away foolishly.

"The wraithknight is, by all means, superior to the riptide."

No, it's not. The Wraitknight's ranged firepower can be safely ignored if necessary, or the thing can actually be killed.

"All the heavy support slots for 3 turns to kill one. "

Still faster than the Riptide.

"make sure you are playing on tables with line of sight blocking terrain."

There is no way to guarantee this, and my group doesn't play with very much LOS blocking terrain as a rule. I shouldn't have to cower behind hills and buildings and cardboard boxes to compete.

Martel732 wrote:
"
There is no way to guarantee this, and my group doesn't play with very much LOS blocking terrain as a rule. I shouldn't have to cower behind hills and buildings and cardboard boxes to compete.

So you're playing vs. what's probably the shootiest army (both fluff and mechanics wise) on a table layout that puts shooting armies at an advantage and are surprised the shooting army is strong?

What did they recomend back in the 6th BRB, 25% terrain?

My group doesn't care. 6th ed is over, and 7th has no requirements. Even when there were, I don't think GW specified LOS vs non-LOS. I have a ton of cover, which the Eldar don't care about, and the Tau ignore. Useless. All useless, despite having 50% ish terrain.

They want "firing lanes", so the games are as fast as possible. Our tournaments also run with very little LoS blocking. Also, I can beat marine shooting armies because their output is poor without a Tiggystar.

So basically, I'm getting the standard "put out free arbitrarily placed painted cardboard boxes that shut down the Tau player's entire list, and then you have a chance!" Funny, I don't recall any opponents needing special terrain to beat my BA. Ever. Not even in 5th or even 3rd. Isn't needing a specific terrain setup against a foe the definition of an OP foe?

LordBlades wrote:
I wasn't contesting the actual math but rather the principle behind it: you're comparing a Riptide that nova- charges every round successfully and always uses the charge for 3++ with a Dreadknight that doesn't do the same (successfully use Sanctuary every round).

Okay so a the riptide is actually - jumping behind LOS blocking terrain after firing at range 60" - It takes 0 DMG in this scenario. Or is standing toe in ruins cover with a 5+ FNP.
Riptide in ruins
.66x.83x.50x.66 = 18% chance at laz cannon wounds.
Dreadknight - Sanctuary (no perils)(no deny the witch)
.66x.83x.33 = 18% laz cannon wounds.

Still advantage riptide for + 1 wound.

That's really not a fair comparison though - ruins are rare in a competitive environment and for good reason - they are OP too. Typically they are placed deep in deployment zones. Riptides are far better suited to hug cover with their 60" gun and sanctuary is rarely on the budget for a grey knight player to cast on all of his knights. Plus the Rip can just hide behind LOS blocking terrain with assault phase move.

How they should be nerfed.



Its the only way to be sure they get nerfed.

 Engine of War wrote:
How they should be nerfed.



Its the only way to be sure they get nerfed.

We grey knights are only concerned with the real enemy. Send the Ultramarines.

 Mulletdude wrote:
Super post time! This thread has gone off the deep end. Also, I feel that someone doesn't understand the Riptide fully. For example:

rigeld2 wrote:

xsharkmanx wrote:
@ rigeld2
and again im amused^^
we are clearly talking about the same definitions but pls take in you rconsideration that these flying monsters kost a lot less and are a lot more mobile.

They're not that much mobile. They move between 12 and 24" a turn but can only turn 90 degrees. A Riptide moves between 13 and 18 inches a turn, the majority of that in the Assault phase, and can move in any direction it wishes.

The Riptide doesn't move like that at all. It moves 6 in the movement phase then 2d6 in assault phase, meaning max movement is 8-18" a turn, not 13-18" a turn. (10-30" if you nova-charge for movement, but who does that?)

What's the average of 2d6? And then what's that added to the 6 in the movement phase? Thanks.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

Dude if I had to put my money on 5 Imperial Knights vs. 5 Riptides... I would pick the riptides

Really? A total of 5 twinlinked melta shots, maybe some double tapping against 5 IK? I would love to see this fight because I don't think the Riptides really have the Firepower to take them down at range and stand no chance at all in CC.

Rending HBC shots will do more than you think.
12 shots, 6 hit, about a Rend (meaning a pen) per shot with a less than 2% chance to take a wound from Gets Hot.
5 Riptides with HBC, Fusion, FNP, and 1 Shielded Missile Drones (for the ablative wounds) costs 250 points.
You add in 2 buffmanders and 2 sets of Broadsides as well as the Riptides and you're at 2k points. All that vs 5 IKs.

5 IK's is 1850, please compare apples to apples. Also, my head may have exploded when you suggested that Tau can take two sets of the same relic. That's just not a thing. Also, HBC riptides are garbage at taking down knights. They wont be able to hurt front armor unless they nova charge, and then they can only do 1 hull point with no chance at exploding it. So, 0.66 to pass the nova, and an average of one glance per riptide pre shield means that if all 5 riptides fired at one knight, it would take 1.66 hull points from the riptides (ignoring drones because no one takes those).

2 sets of the same relic? The list I was talking about was didn't use any of the Tau relics (iirc... I don't care enough to bring battlescribe back up)
And why are all 5 Riptides in the shield arc again? And you're ignoring Fusion Blasters. But that's okay. Oh, and I was comparing apples to apples. Someone else mentioned 2k points, so that's what I ran with. (hence giving the IKs 150 points to play with - but you neglected to read that post).

Also, if the Tau player is going for a 3++ every turn, that means the riptides are effectively on.y 4.666w models because of the 1.333 wounds they take from nova charge failures (assuming 6 turns, means 2 fails and 1.33 wounds gets applied to the model).

Oh... kay?

rigeld2 wrote:

And that overcharged HBC is 12 gets hot shots. It average it's 0.33 wounds from that alone.
HBC riptide that tries to overcharge every turn deals on average 3.33 select wounds in a game. And if he doesn't, he deals neglectible damage.

Really? 12 shots, on average 2 Gets Hot. I've already proven that you'll suffer a wound from a Gets Hot less than 2 percent of the time.
So how does 60 shots (5 game turns) times 2% give you 3.33? And exactly how is 4 fewer shots and no Rending "negligible"? I mean - obviously Flyrants are doing barely over negligible damage...

Nova fails, on average, once or twice a game.

Your math is just all wrong. Average course of a 6 turn game the riptide will fail 2 nova charges and take 1.333 wounds from those failures. During the successful nova charges, it will fire 48 gets hot shots, of which 8 will be ones, 1.333 will be ones after that, and .889 will be failed FNP rolls. That means the average HBC riptide during an average 6 turn game will lose 2.223 wounds to itself during the course of that game. That means the riptide really only has 3w that the opponents need to cause. This is of course ignoring the fact that most commanders wont nova-charge a 1w riptide for fear of losing it to a failed roll. [in reading further in the thread, I see this point has been made already]

Please explain how my quote is "all wrong". I responded to what I quoted - that 12 shots will result in .33 wounds. Your math has 12 shots resulting in .22 wounds, so your math doesn't agree with what I was responding to either.

Martel732 wrote:
No, not at all. Even after their new codex, they are south of mediocre. No power builds. No exploitable combos. No truly powerful characters. No grav cents. No stormtalons. No TFCs.

They were outright unplayable before. Now they are just poor. The BA still stack up very unfavorably against Tau and Eldar.

I need to call you out on this one. No power builds? They can take a formation and assault from drop pods turn 1. Oh, and have 3 stormravens filled with marines. Dante is a damn beatstick and will cleave holes into entire squads of just about anything with his i6 s6 ap2 melee weapon. The sanguinary guard getting cheaper and bigger squads means they're mean as heck too. 10 man unit with Dante and a priest will jump around the board eating faces. Heavy flamers in tac squads is amazing because now 10-man squads aren't forced to split and have 5 members sit back while the other 5 advance.

3 Stormravens filled with Tac marines. Ooh scary.

My point is still the same. The Tau army forces people to change the way they play, and they don't like it.

No, this isn't a fact. I'm a Nid player - I have to essentially completely change tactics every time a new codex gets released - any codex.

Martel732 wrote:
My group doesn't care. 6th ed is over, and 7th has no requirements. Even when there were, I don't think GW specified LOS vs non-LOS. I have a ton of cover, which the Eldar don't care about, and the Tau ignore. Useless. All useless, despite having 50% ish terrain.

They want "firing lanes", so the games are as fast as possible. Our tournaments also run with very little LoS blocking. Also, I can beat marine shooting armies because their output is poor without a Tiggystar.

So basically, I'm getting the standard "put out free arbitrarily placed painted cardboard boxes that shut down the Tau player's entire list, and then you have a chance!" Funny, I don't recall any opponents needing special terrain to beat my BA. Ever. Not even in 5th or even 3rd. Isn't needing a specific terrain setup against a foe the definition of an OP foe?

The more open a map is, the more the game is skewed toward shooting armies.

If the enemy army is shootier than yours, an open map plays to his advantage.

If you could beat the Tau easily on an open map (which is basicly stacking the deck in their favor) wouldn't Tau then be UP?

LordBlades wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
My group doesn't care. 6th ed is over, and 7th has no requirements. Even when there were, I don't think GW specified LOS vs non-LOS. I have a ton of cover, which the Eldar don't care about, and the Tau ignore. Useless. All useless, despite having 50% ish terrain.

They want "firing lanes", so the games are as fast as possible. Our tournaments also run with very little LoS blocking. Also, I can beat marine shooting armies because their output is poor without a Tiggystar.

So basically, I'm getting the standard "put out free arbitrarily placed painted cardboard boxes that shut down the Tau player's entire list, and then you have a chance!" Funny, I don't recall any opponents needing special terrain to beat my BA. Ever. Not even in 5th or even 3rd. Isn't needing a specific terrain setup against a foe the definition of an OP foe?

The more open a map is, the more the game is skewed toward shooting armies.

If the enemy army is shootier than yours, an open map plays to his advantage.

If you could beat the Tau easily on an open map (which is basicly stacking the deck in their favor) wouldn't Tau then be UP?

No one said anything about easily. I'd settle for making them work hard at this point. Which they don't.

Martel732 wrote:

No one said anything about easily. I'd settle for making them work hard at this point. Which they don't.

Because you and your opponents give them a massive advantage.

That's not a fault with the Tau, it's a fault with the game you're playing.

You lose all validity for your complaints that your Blood Angels don't stand a chance when you then tell people that you use no LOS blocking terrain and are effectively running across an open field at a line of guns.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

No one said anything about easily. I'd settle for making them work hard at this point. Which they don't.

Because you and your opponents give them a massive advantage.

That's not a fault with the Tau, it's a fault with the game you're playing.

You lose all validity for your complaints that your Blood Angels don't stand a chance when you then tell people that you use no LOS blocking terrain and are effectively running across an open field at a line of guns.

It's not open. I have cover that the Tau ignore. I think my complaints are even more valid since we are using around 50% terrain, but the Tau still butcher me. It's got to be the extra spiffy specific terrain? That looks really bad to me. All the Tau player has to do is veto all those board set ups which my play group has defacto already done.

Martel732 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

No one said anything about easily. I'd settle for making them work hard at this point. Which they don't.

Because you and your opponents give them a massive advantage.

That's not a fault with the Tau, it's a fault with the game you're playing.

You lose all validity for your complaints that your Blood Angels don't stand a chance when you then tell people that you use no LOS blocking terrain and are effectively running across an open field at a line of guns.

It's not open. I have cover that the Tau ignore. I think my complaints are even more valid since we are using around 50% terrain, but the Tau still butcher me. It's got to be the extra spiffy specific terrain? That looks really bad to me. All the Tau player has to do is veto all those board set ups which my play group has defacto already done.

Technically you could also veto the biard set-ups that are advantageous to the Tau.

Also, what you are saying is that you'd like the Tau to be struggling under what's pretty much ideal conditions for them. Sorry, but that's pretty close to the definition of underpowered.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

No one said anything about easily. I'd settle for making them work hard at this point. Which they don't.

Because you and your opponents give them a massive advantage.

That's not a fault with the Tau, it's a fault with the game you're playing.

You lose all validity for your complaints that your Blood Angels don't stand a chance when you then tell people that you use no LOS blocking terrain and are effectively running across an open field at a line of guns.

You know who benefits huge from line of sight blocking terrain? Tau....Specifically Riptides, and crisis suits. I'm not sure more cover is the answer for Martel. I think maybe a change of army to eldar or tau would suit him better.

Never. After all the hate in 5th, I'll never run the current hot list. And I only played Razor spam in 5th because BA jumpers were invalidated by so many other lists in 5th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LordBlades wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

No one said anything about easily. I'd settle for making them work hard at this point. Which they don't.

Because you and your opponents give them a massive advantage.

That's not a fault with the Tau, it's a fault with the game you're playing.

You lose all validity for your complaints that your Blood Angels don't stand a chance when you then tell people that you use no LOS blocking terrain and are effectively running across an open field at a line of guns.

It's not open. I have cover that the Tau ignore. I think my complaints are even more valid since we are using around 50% terrain, but the Tau still butcher me. It's got to be the extra spiffy specific terrain? That looks really bad to me. All the Tau player has to do is veto all those board set ups which my play group has defacto already done.

Technically you could also veto the biard set-ups that are advantageous to the Tau.

Also, what you are saying is that you'd like the Tau to be struggling under what's pretty much ideal conditions for them. Sorry, but that's pretty close to the definition of underpowered.

So having to work to win is "struggling"? Like having your victories handed to you much?

Martel732 wrote:

So having to work to win is "struggling"? Like having your victories handed to you much?

You said 'work hard', which I interpreted as 'have a difficult game'. If that's not what you meant, then it's simply a misunderstanding.

Now, if Tau, on a table setup that favors them greatly should have a difficult game vs. BA (a codex which, by your own words is 'south of mediocre'), what should they do vs. a mediocre (or worse, above average) codex on a table setup that's balanced (or worse, disfavors the Tau) ?

LordBlades wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

So having to work to win is "struggling"? Like having your victories handed to you much?

You said 'work hard', which I interpreted as 'have a difficult game'. If that's not what you meant, then it's simply a misunderstanding.

Now, if Tau, on a table setup that favors them greatly should have a difficult game vs. BA (a codex which, by your own words is 'south of mediocre'), what should they do vs. a mediocre (or worse, above average) codex on a table setup that's balanced (or worse, disfavors the Tau) ?

All the best lists are shooting, though. The Tau and the rest of the power codices all benefit from having no LoS blocking terrain. The codices that deign to attempt assault are the ones that seem to be suffering the most.

Some of the Tau advantages are the game design. I bet if charge range was always 6" and first turn assault was possible Tau would plummet and people would still hate Tau.

Needless to say I am bored of this topic now.

I purchased a Tau army because I liked them, not because I though OP winning army, but threads like this make me wish I hadn't bothered. I feel like if I try to start playing the game again I'm just gonna get those looks and people are gone be like no you play Tau.

Maybe all the Tau hater should think about the other side of this the normal people who play the game with a mixture of units who get completely disheartened by these threads.

It's fairly destructive to the game if people aren't willing to just accept it's a game and get on with it.

Btw I don't have a gaming group and can't find enthusiasm to finish my Tau because I keep seeing hate threads that go into the 20s (this is far from the first).

I had planned on painting up the army and finding a group to enjoy the game, but feel like because I didn't choose an imperium army I'm suddenly like an untouchable and shouldn't bother. Although it seems more like its concentrated at Tau, I've yet to see an Eldar hate thread anywhere near this and they're openly considered the best army.

There have been Eldar hate threads, don't worry.

People complain about Tau because some Tau lists don't even let the other army play. Don't make lists like that, and your opponents shouldn't complain.

A big problem with the Tau design philosophy is to be so one dimensional, that when their list works, other lists don't get to do anything at all. Because the Tau absolutely do not want to be in assault.

Boniface wrote:
Some of the Tau advantages are the game design. I bet if charge range was always 6" and first turn assault was possible Tau would plummet and people would still hate Tau.

Needless to say I am bored of this topic now.

I purchased a Tau army because I liked them, not because I though OP winning army, but threads like this make me wish I hadn't bothered. I feel like if I try to start playing the game again I'm just gonna get those looks and people are gone be like no you play Tau.

Maybe all the Tau hater should think about the other side of this the normal people who play the game with a mixture of units who get completely disheartened by these threads.

It's fairly destructive to the game if people aren't willing to just accept it's a game and get on with it.

Btw I don't have a gaming group and can't find enthusiasm to finish my Tau because I keep seeing hate threads that go into the 20s (this is far from the first).

I had planned on painting up the army and finding a group to enjoy the game, but feel like because I didn't choose an imperium army I'm suddenly like an untouchable and shouldn't bother. Although it seems more like its concentrated at Tau, I've yet to see an Eldar hate thread anywhere near this and they're openly considered the best army.

This thread is about balance. Balance is important to table top games that take 4 hours to play. No one will complain if you aren't spamming riptides man - which is what this thread is about. Tau players don't want to see their OP indestructible battle suit nerfed because winning every game is a lot of fun but it's not fun for the other guy. Destroying entire squads from 60 inches away while shrugging off heavy amounts of firepower is fun for some people. For me after 3-4 of these games I'd have to put the riptides away. Most of my friends in my gaming group are of the same opinions - many used to play eldar and they are now shelved because they are "too powerful" I know it's crazy but eldar are so OP it's not even worth talking about. They only come up in nerf tau threads because tau is borderline with eldar with riptide spam.

Don't be discouraged though - just don't spam riptides. You can find a group easy- and most people that play this game are super friendly and want both parties to have fun - unlike most of the dakka fourmers.

Boniface wrote:
Some of the Tau advantages are the game design. I bet if charge range was always 6" and first turn assault was possible Tau would plummet and people would still hate Tau.

Needless to say I am bored of this topic now.

I purchased a Tau army because I liked them, not because I though OP winning army, but threads like this make me wish I hadn't bothered. I feel like if I try to start playing the game again I'm just gonna get those looks and people are gone be like no you play Tau.

Maybe all the Tau hater should think about the other side of this the normal people who play the game with a mixture of units who get completely disheartened by these threads.

It's fairly destructive to the game if people aren't willing to just accept it's a game and get on with it.

Btw I don't have a gaming group and can't find enthusiasm to finish my Tau because I keep seeing hate threads that go into the 20s (this is far from the first).

I had planned on painting up the army and finding a group to enjoy the game, but feel like because I didn't choose an imperium army I'm suddenly like an untouchable and shouldn't bother. Although it seems more like its concentrated at Tau, I've yet to see an Eldar hate thread anywhere near this and they're openly considered the best army.

Its the internet buddy..it thrives on negativity..in reality players in person don't really care..paint and model them to your best..make the army you want to play..and find some RL people to game with..and avoid these threads like the plague.. Tau hate has been around since they shook up the grimdarkness...people hated on them for their concept..their looks..and rules..even when they were the bottom of the barrel mechanics wise.
And now since they can be nasty..and are not easily delt with or have a no easy solution unit..well that fuels the same dislike even more...
But its the internet forum..and people love to complain..meh
Check out my gallery I have plenty of Tau custom goodness there...and have played this stuff since the 80s..its a great hobby just don't let the negative nellies get to you.