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We are not buffing the Riptide in CC, WHY? Why is that even on the table as a option? Now lets phrase the Riptides problem simply, it is the most durable MC in the game and it isn't even a melee or 12 inch range creature.

 Quickjager wrote:
We are not buffing the Riptide in CC, WHY? Why is that even on the table as a option? Now lets phrase the Riptides problem simply, it is the most durable MC in the game and it isn't even a melee or 12 inch range creature.

I could see the riptide getting a small melee buff if it was in the Farsight Codex or rolling with Aun'shi maybe.

Wait some one was suggesting a melee buff?

Suggested nerfs in my mind.
Limit the range or remove the generator (although that might increase survivability instead of reduce it).
I don't really know how to nerf it without ruining the unit entirely.
Maybe T5 is the answer.
I just find it difficult to contemplate when a wraith lord has T8.
I think we all agree the wraith knight is a bit OP. I'm shocked people think the WK is less OP.
It's T8 3+ 12" move (with 5++ possible) and has 3 possible twin linked ap2 blasts. Multiple blast rule is place the first blast, roll the scatter and place touching (dependent on where) all re-rolls. Surely your going to get more like 6-7 wounds every shooting phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Suggested nerfs in my mind.
Limit the range or remove the generator (although that might increase survivability instead of reduce it).
I don't really know how to nerf it without ruining the unit entirely.
Maybe T5 is the answer.
I just find it difficult to contemplate when a wraith lord has T8.
I think we all agree the wraith knight is a bit OP. I'm shocked people think the WK is less OP.
It's T8 3+ 12" move (with 5++ possible) and has 3 possible twin linked ap2 blasts. Multiple blast rule is place the first blast, roll the scatter and place touching (dependent on where) all re-rolls. Surely your going to get more like 6-7 wounds every shooting phase.

Make the rip tide into a Walker...

Give the Riptide a buff...

 Filch wrote:
Make the rip tide into a Walker...

There are more reasons it shouldn't be one than reasons it should.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Filch wrote:
Make the rip tide into a Walker...

There are more reasons it shouldn't be one than reasons it should.

There only needs to be one reason to make it a walker - the damn thing *is* a walker.

Make Tau suits Mechs. So they're empty and you have to purchase a pilot. This would solve the walker vs MC issue.
Because creature in monstrous creature infers living and walker infers mechanical.

Walker means something ungainly that can do some stuff but isn't agile and stuff like a person.
Creature in these rules represents something big but acts like its living. Tau suits are close to 'living' because they are extensions of the pilot like the dread knight whilst a dreadnought could be an MC it is clunky and not very agile.
Introduce Mech class, everything makes sense people are piloting a suit that acts like its an extension of them and bumps up the base cost.
Might require some minor point amendments on some units though.

I agree that the CSM ones should be MC


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Make Tau suits Mechs. So they're empty and you have to purchase a pilot. This would solve the walker vs MC issue.
Because creature in monstrous creature infers living and walker infers mechanical.

Walker means something ungainly that can do some stuff but isn't agile and stuff like a person.
Creature in these rules represents something big but acts like its living. Tau suits are close to 'living' because they are extensions of the pilot like the dread knight whilst a dreadnought could be an MC it is clunky and not very agile.
Introduce Mech class, everything makes sense people are piloting a suit that acts like its an extension of them and bumps up the base cost.
Might require some minor point amendments on some units though.

I agree that the CSM ones should be MC

 vipoid wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Filch wrote:
Make the rip tide into a Walker...

There are more reasons it shouldn't be one than reasons it should.

There only needs to be one reason to make it a walker - the damn thing *is* a walker.

It's closer to a giant suit of power-armor than a walker. Also walkers (outside of the eldar titans and perhaps war-walkers and wasp walkers) aren't supposed to be as nimble or fast as the riptide. A riptide wouldn't really fit the aesthetic. Plus the riptide is not supposed to be "walking" in so many words. Its got a jetpack. It would have more maneuverability than a standard walker its size should have.

Boniface wrote:
I agree that the CSM ones should be MC

Being they are daemon-engines, the term "engine" denotes they are meant to be mechanical and vehicles in function. If the chaos lord in question wants a MC, he will find a giant spawn of greater daemon to fo-fill the task better.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Filch wrote:
Make the rip tide into a Walker...

There are more reasons it shouldn't be one than reasons it should.

and what of those reasons don't also apply to a Dreadnought, a walker?

The Imperial Answer wrote:

It's closer to a giant suit of power-armor than a walker.

The pilot takes up far too little space for that to be true.

Unless you're telling me Tau have vat-grown pilots to be only marginally smaller than the Riptide?

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Also walkers (outside of the eldar titans and perhaps war-walkers and wasp walkers) aren't supposed to be as nimble or fast as the riptide.

So then it shouldn't exist at all? Got it.

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Plus the riptide is not supposed to be "walking" in so many words. Its got a jetpack. It would have more maneuverability than a standard walker its size should have.

Ok, so remove JSJ.

Boniface wrote:
Suggested nerfs in my mind.
Limit the range or remove the generator (although that might increase survivability instead of reduce it).
I don't really know how to nerf it without ruining the unit entirely.
Maybe T5 is the answer.
I just find it difficult to contemplate when a wraith lord has T8.
I think we all agree the wraith knight is a bit OP. I'm shocked people think the WK is less OP.
It's T8 3+ 12" move (with 5++ possible) and has 3 possible twin linked ap2 blasts. Multiple blast rule is place the first blast, roll the scatter and place touching (dependent on where) all re-rolls. Surely your going to get more like 6-7 wounds every shooting phase.

The thing is, with the 3" Blasts and the sync, that MC actually costs 300 Points, which is quite a bit more than the riptide. The next thing is its 3+ Armor which can be pierced by far more weapons, best example would be rocket launchers. The next big thing on the list is that this weapon can never get "ignore cover". There may be the option of a psyker buffing it, but that is nothing you can actually count on because the psychic powers are random and you have to do your warp charge tests which can be denied by your opponent. The last thing is that with a range of 36" in order to get it twin linked you are also in a close range to the big hitters in melee, or other weapons who can really hurt but have a low range, like meltas or grav besides droppod troops or bikers.

 vipoid wrote:


The pilot takes up far too little space for that to be true.

Unless you're telling me Tau have vat-grown pilots to be only marginally smaller than the Riptide?

It is in fact described as being "worn" in the Tau Codex.

 vipoid wrote:
So then it shouldn't exist at all? Got it..

Not as a walker. As a MC sure. But as a walker it wouldn't make a lot of sense. There were early prototypes more akin to walkers in the Tau codex but they were scrapped because the Tau thought they were too ponderous. Also if the Tau wanted a walker, they would have built it like a walker instead of a giant suit of armor.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 vipoid wrote:


The pilot takes up far too little space for that to be true.

Unless you're telling me Tau have vat-grown pilots to be only marginally smaller than the Riptide?

It is in fact described as being "worn" in the Tau Codex.

"Worn" is a very loose term.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 vipoid wrote:


The pilot takes up far too little space for that to be true.

Unless you're telling me Tau have vat-grown pilots to be only marginally smaller than the Riptide?

It is in fact described as being "worn" in the Tau Codex.

 vipoid wrote:

Not as a walker. As a MC sure. But as a walker it wouldn't make a lot of sense. There were early prototypes more akin to walkers in the Tau codex but they were scrapped because the Tau thought they were too ponderous. Also if the Tau wanted a walker, they would have built it like a walker instead of a giant suit of armor.

I don't understand this.

Why does it make more sense for it to be a MC when it clearly isn't a MC?

I wonder if we'll see even more rules added, such as 'Monstrous Walkers'?

Y'know, just to give people more to flick through and draw the game out more.


If I was going to pick a side though, the MC rules seem to make more sense and that riptide should clearly out-pace a dreadnought

So what you're saying is that a mech piloted by a fishman in the fetal position via a neural link as a proxy body is more deserving of being an MC than a daemonic entity controlling a mechanical body exactly as if it was their own (with the same capabilities?)

I'm not saying that it should be a Walker, nor am I saying Forge/Maulerfiends should be MCs but you can't justify 1 being an MC while something that's a Walker is seemingly more deserving of that title based on what a MC actually is.

Also on the 'riptide is too ponderous to be walker' thing... no it's not. The Maulerfiend is a walker that moves 12" because it has a special rule. All you need to do is give the WalkerTide a special rule like this:

Jet Systems: In the assault phase the Riptide may make a Trust Move as if it had the Jet type. Furthermore, it ignores the effects of difficult terrains but treats it as dangerous terrains andunless it starts or ends it move in terrain, it does not need to take dangerous terrain checks.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
So what you're saying is that a mech piloted by a fishman in the fetal position via a neural link as a proxy body is more deserving of being an MC than a daemonic entity controlling a mechanical body exactly as if it was their own (with the same capabilities?)

Nope, I only said that the Riptide should be a MC

If I had my way, many others including the Maulerfiend would also be MCs

You know...and for any battletech fans out there...
The tau battlesuits all use wounds and saves rather than AV,,from stealthsuits to the Riptide(although the stealth suit is actually barely larger than the pilot)
So..the fluffy reason may be due to artifical muscles and such attributing to its fluid motion and overall ability to take damage..Mynomer tech..thickly bundled and corded..so that individual penetrations and such are not as catastrophic as on more mundane constructs.

but the real reason is its just a progression from the XV-8 mechanics..scaled up and slapped a Universal rule on...to prevent making a special case for one unit...may not fit perfectly, but since when has GW really cared that much.

Resume.

 Wulfmar wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
So what you're saying is that a mech piloted by a fishman in the fetal position via a neural link as a proxy body is more deserving of being an MC than a daemonic entity controlling a mechanical body exactly as if it was their own (with the same capabilities?)

Nope, I only said that the Riptide should be a MC

If I had my way, many others including the Maulerfiend would also be MCs

Sorry Wulfmar, I was more aiming this at The Imperial Answer. Didn't see your post (pretty sure you posted while I was writing it up )

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Also on the 'riptide is too ponderous to be walker' thing... no it's not.

I said the early prototypes were. It even mentions it in the codex under riptide development.

I would be okay with it being an MC if it had the typical toughness and wounds of a regular Tau warrior. Being shot with a tank cannon would probably pretty damaging to the pilot's mind, to the point that they probably wouldn't be able to function afterward. Reminds me of a scene from Gundam Unicorn where the Unicorn (linked directly to the pilot's mind á la Riptide) gets punched square in the midsection, causing the pilot to vomit and pass out.

Don't even get me started on the Forge/Mauler fiend and Defiled being Walkers instead of MCs.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I would be okay with it being an MC if it had the typical toughness and wounds of a regular Tau warrior. Being shot with a tank cannon would probably pretty damaging to the pilot's mind, to the point that they probably wouldn't be able to function afterward. Reminds me of a scene from Gundam Unicorn where the Unicorn (linked directly to the pilot's mind á la Riptide) gets punched square in the midsection, causing the pilot to vomit and pass out.

Sounds like a really stupid way to design your battlesuit, having its sensors be capable of incapacitating its pilot. Something any rigorous testing would spot and fix.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
the Unicorn (linked directly to the pilot's mind á la Riptide) gets punched square in the midsection, causing the pilot to vomit and pass out.

That sounds ridiculous though. It'd be like giving the suit olfactory sensors and having it be susceptible to tear gas.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Also on the 'riptide is too ponderous to be walker' thing... no it's not.

I said the early prototypes were. It even mentions it in the codex under riptide development.

Sorry, meant to write that the other way; "walkers too ponderous for a riptide to be one".
The point still stands that it can feasibly be a walker ruleswise if you add 1 or 2 special rules to make it move like Jetpack models, like how the Maulerfiend has a special rule allowing it to move 12" a turn. The point of it being no more deserving to be an MC than the currently-walker fiends and vice-versa also stands. You can't justify the difference between the two as it always turns into a 'well then most walkers should be MCs' arguement because the way a Riptide is controlled is the same as how dreadnoughts and certain deffdreads are and the way wraithknights/lords are controlled is the same way daemon engines are.

I had to check this thread wasn't started in 2012 lmao

You're an edition too late my friend.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Don't even get me started on the Forge/Mauler fiend and Defiled being Walkers instead of MCs.

A lot of the daemon engines would be less potent if they weren't walkers. They would loose the ability to fire all of their weapons in one turn, versus monstrous creatures who may only fire two. The Defiler and Forgefiend were meant to be heavier weapons platforms in the lore, the defiler in particular to replace the unreliable chaos dreadnoughts. They wouldn't be as powerful if they were restricted to what they could fire in one volley.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Don't even get me started on the Forge/Mauler fiend and Defiled being Walkers instead of MCs.

A lot of the daemon engines would be less potent if they were walkers. They would loose the ability to fire all of their weapons in one turn, versus monstrous creatures who may only fire two. The Defiler and Forgefiend were meant to be heavier weapons platforms in the lore, the defiler in particular to replace the unreliable chaos dreadnoughts. They wouldn't be as powerful if they were restricted to what they could fire in one volley.

The Daemon Engines ARE Walkers!

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Don't even get me started on the Forge/Mauler fiend and Defiled being Walkers instead of MCs.

A lot of the daemon engines would be less potent if they were walkers. They would loose the ability to fire all of their weapons in one turn, versus monstrous creatures who may only fire two. The Defiler and Forgefiend were meant to be heavier weapons platforms in the lore, the defiler in particular to replace the unreliable chaos dreadnoughts. They wouldn't be as powerful if they were restricted to what they could fire in one volley.

The Daemon Engines ARE Walkers!

I think it was just a typo in that first sentence. Considering the rest of the post is about the advantages that walkers have in terms of how many weapons they can fire and why that benefits the daemon engines...

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Don't even get me started on the Forge/Mauler fiend and Defiled being Walkers instead of MCs.

A lot of the daemon engines would be less potent if they were walkers. They would loose the ability to fire all of their weapons in one turn, versus monstrous creatures who may only fire two. The Defiler and Forgefiend were meant to be heavier weapons platforms in the lore, the defiler in particular to replace the unreliable chaos dreadnoughts. They wouldn't be as powerful if they were restricted to what they could fire in one volley.

The Daemon Engines ARE Walkers!

I believe he meant "weren't". Because in the next sentence he goes on to say that as walkers they can shoot all their weapons, if they were MCs they could only shoot two.