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A Town Called Malus wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Don't even get me started on the Forge/Mauler fiend and Defiled being Walkers instead of MCs.

A lot of the daemon engines would be less potent if they were walkers. They would loose the ability to fire all of their weapons in one turn, versus monstrous creatures who may only fire two. The Defiler and Forgefiend were meant to be heavier weapons platforms in the lore, the defiler in particular to replace the unreliable chaos dreadnoughts. They wouldn't be as powerful if they were restricted to what they could fire in one volley.

The Daemon Engines ARE Walkers!

I think it was just a typo in that first sentence. Considering the rest of the post is about the advantages that walkers have in terms of how many weapons they can fire and why that benefits the daemon engines...

Deadawake1347 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Don't even get me started on the Forge/Mauler fiend and Defiled being Walkers instead of MCs.

A lot of the daemon engines would be less potent if they were walkers. They would loose the ability to fire all of their weapons in one turn, versus monstrous creatures who may only fire two. The Defiler and Forgefiend were meant to be heavier weapons platforms in the lore, the defiler in particular to replace the unreliable chaos dreadnoughts. They wouldn't be as powerful if they were restricted to what they could fire in one volley.

The Daemon Engines ARE Walkers!

I believe he meant "weren't". Because in the next sentence he goes on to say that as walkers they can shoot all their weapons, if they were MCs they could only shoot two.

I get that now. I stopped reading after the If Daemon Engines Were Walkers part. Sorry!

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Don't even get me started on the Forge/Mauler fiend and Defiled being Walkers instead of MCs.

A lot of the daemon engines would be less potent if they were walkers. They would loose the ability to fire all of their weapons in one turn, versus monstrous creatures who may only fire two. The Defiler and Forgefiend were meant to be heavier weapons platforms in the lore, the defiler in particular to replace the unreliable chaos dreadnoughts. They wouldn't be as powerful if they were restricted to what they could fire in one volley.

The Daemon Engines ARE Walkers!

I think it was just a typo in that first sentence. Considering the rest of the post is about the advantages that walkers have in terms of how many weapons they can fire and why that benefits the daemon engines...

Deadawake1347 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Don't even get me started on the Forge/Mauler fiend and Defiled being Walkers instead of MCs.

A lot of the daemon engines would be less potent if they were walkers. They would loose the ability to fire all of their weapons in one turn, versus monstrous creatures who may only fire two. The Defiler and Forgefiend were meant to be heavier weapons platforms in the lore, the defiler in particular to replace the unreliable chaos dreadnoughts. They wouldn't be as powerful if they were restricted to what they could fire in one volley.

The Daemon Engines ARE Walkers!

I believe he meant "weren't". Because in the next sentence he goes on to say that as walkers they can shoot all their weapons, if they were MCs they could only shoot two.

I get that now. I stopped reading after the If Daemon Engines Were Walkers part. Sorry!

My mistake that was a typo on my part.

The 'Tide wouldn't be the first Jet Pack walker.

Bharring wrote:
The 'Tide wouldn't be the first Jet Pack walker.

But it would be the first one that could fight back in close combat.

I've come across plenty of furniture with Shedd blocking terrain. However largely that was before 6 in a diverse area. We have relocated ever since then.

perrsyu wrote:
I've come across plenty of furniture with Shedd blocking terrain. However largely that was before 6 in a diverse area. We have relocated ever since then.

Eh?

Boniface wrote:
Suggested nerfs in my mind.
Limit the range or remove the generator (although that might increase survivability instead of reduce it).
I don't really know how to nerf it without ruining the unit entirely.
Maybe T5 is the answer.
I just find it difficult to contemplate when a wraith lord has T8.
I think we all agree the wraith knight is a bit OP. I'm shocked people think the WK is less OP.
It's T8 3+ 12" move (with 5++ possible) and has 3 possible twin linked ap2 blasts. Multiple blast rule is place the first blast, roll the scatter and place touching (dependent on where) all re-rolls. Surely your going to get more like 6-7 wounds every shooting phase.

Sure, if you don't know the rules I'm sure you would think it's overpowered.

rigeld2 wrote:

Boniface wrote:
Suggested nerfs in my mind.
Limit the range or remove the generator (although that might increase survivability instead of reduce it).
I don't really know how to nerf it without ruining the unit entirely.
Maybe T5 is the answer.
I just find it difficult to contemplate when a wraith lord has T8.
I think we all agree the wraith knight is a bit OP. I'm shocked people think the WK is less OP.
It's T8 3+ 12" move (with 5++ possible) and has 3 possible twin linked ap2 blasts. Multiple blast rule is place the first blast, roll the scatter and place touching (dependent on where) all re-rolls. Surely your going to get more like 6-7 wounds every shooting phase.

Sure, if you don't know the rules I'm sure you would think it's overpowered.

Spoiler:

“Multiple Blasts
If a unit is firing more than one shot with the Blast special rule, scatter each shot, one at a time, as described above and determine how many hits are scored with each individual blast marker. After the last shot, add up the total number of hits scored and roll all of the To Wound rolls as normal.”

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Warhammer 40,000.” iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

Yep, you're clearly thinking of Barrage.

We're the old rules for multiple blasts they could touch and scattered only as far as the edge of the blast marker, or has it only ever been barrage?

Could've sworn it was the other way. It's been a while.

And now we see the true face of "nerf the entire riptide, not just the IA" side.
People who does not actually know the basic rules very well.

No, I'm aware of how they work. And I still think the chassis can do too much for the points. One issue I have is that with 2+/5+++FNP, gets hot isn't even a thing for the Riptide.

 BoomWolf wrote:
And now we see the true face of "nerf the entire riptide, not just the IA" side.
People who does not actually know the basic rules very well.

I wouldn't blame anyone for not remembering how certain rules work, not with the amount of rules we're working with in 40K...

I still can't for the life of me remember the flier rules, for example. Read it thrice. Nope, nothing stuck.

Boniface wrote:
We're the old rules for multiple blasts they could touch and scattered only as far as the edge of the blast marker, or has it only ever been barrage?

Only ever Barrage. Unless it switched in 3rd - I played in second and read the 4th edition rules and it wasn't like that for Blast in either of those.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:
And now we see the true face of "nerf the entire riptide, not just the IA" side.
People who does not actually know the basic rules very well.

Poor assumption. You should look at who corrected him and that persons stance in this thread.

Sorry if that doesn't fit your worldview.

 BoomWolf wrote:
And now we see the true face of "nerf the entire riptide, not just the IA" side.
People who does not actually know the basic rules very well.

Riptide is very easy to understand. No advanced rules come into play when using it other than the nova rules which are very easy to understand. Also I think you'd find more people complaining about riptides being indestructible than causing too much damage. Everything tau does a lot of damage. Indestructible and tau just doesn't work together. Ends up being unstoppable.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
And now we see the true face of "nerf the entire riptide, not just the IA" side.
People who does not actually know the basic rules very well.

Riptide is very easy to understand. No advanced rules come into play when using it other than the nova rules which are very easy to understand. Also I think you'd find more people complaining about riptides being indestructible than causing too much damage. Everything tau does a lot of damage. Indestructible and tau just doesn't work together. Ends up being unstoppable.

Instead of a nerf, how about a price increase. It would better reflect its value and keep people from taking as many.

Price increase is fine too.

You'd think so, right?

So do explain to me why on every single thread about the riptid (every month or so) I need to explain all over again the outlandish difference between the HBC and the IA.
Or that the HBC riptide is not at all even durable, due to the sheer amount of self-inflicted wounds he causes.

Because I lost count on how many times I had to do it. including on this very thread, and people still don't seem to grasp that basic concept that the two guns make it might as well be a whole other unit.
And even more boggling is how they keep failing to grasp that the fact one setup is overpowered and the other isn't means that the problem is NECESSARILY not in the base itself, but in what differentiates the two setups.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
And now we see the true face of "nerf the entire riptide, not just the IA" side.
People who does not actually know the basic rules very well.

Riptide is very easy to understand. No advanced rules come into play when using it other than the nova rules which are very easy to understand. Also I think you'd find more people complaining about riptides being indestructible than causing too much damage. Everything tau does a lot of damage. Indestructible and tau just doesn't work together. Ends up being unstoppable.

Then how come this unstoppable Tau doesn't do all that well.in a competitive environment?

IMO the main source of disagreement in this thread is that we are discussing two different things:
- On the one hand there's people discussing the Riptide in the real world, where Dreadknights, Imperial Knights, Wraithknights and IoM armies cherry picking allies to fill their weaknesses or boost their strength are a thing and Tau needs to compete against all that on their own.
-On the other hand there's people discussing the Riptide in a hypothetical world where everything is perfectly balanced.

Not saying any point of view is wrong (since the discussion is academic anyway as GW doesn't care about what we think), just that it breeds different expectations about how strong a Riptide should be.

LordBlades wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
And now we see the true face of "nerf the entire riptide, not just the IA" side.
People who does not actually know the basic rules very well.

Riptide is very easy to understand. No advanced rules come into play when using it other than the nova rules which are very easy to understand. Also I think you'd find more people complaining about riptides being indestructible than causing too much damage. Everything tau does a lot of damage. Indestructible and tau just doesn't work together. Ends up being unstoppable.

Then how come this unstoppable Tau doesn't do all that well.in a competitive environment?

IMO the main source of disagreement in this thread is that we are discussing two different things:
- On the one hand there's people discussing the Riptide in the real world, where Dreadknights, Imperial Knights, Wraithknights and IoM armies cherry picking allies to fill their weaknesses or boost their strength are a thing and Tau needs to compete against all that on their own.
-On the other hand there's people discussing the Riptide in a hypothetical world where everything is perfectly balanced.

Not saying any point of view is wrong (since the discussion is academic anyway as GW doesn't care about what we think), just that it breeds different expectations about how strong a Riptide should be.

Hhurray someone that sees this whole discussion like i do!

Martel732 wrote:
No, I'm aware of how they work. And I still think the chassis can do too much for the points. One issue I have is that with 2+/5+++FNP, gets hot isn't even a thing for the Riptide.

FNP puts the riptide at 215 points. Thats a pretty big sink imo. It also does not make the ride invincible, i have lost my riptide due to gets hot rolls a few times. So it is something. As i have said before yes it is a tough unit, many other armies have T6+ units as well. The trick woth units like the riptide is volume of fire. A group of 10-20 guardsmen are more likely to kill the riptide than a tank is. Because the tide has just one save to make as opposed to the 20-40 shots of an infantry squad.


I keap bringing it up but try to kill a squad of thunderwolf cavalry with storm shield. 2+/3p
++ is damn near impossible. and they will whipe any squad they get a charge on.

Well looking at the riptide, yes one variant is extremely powerful. But for all the flak it gets, there are walkers or MCs of similar toughness and size that have a lot more in capabilities or support their army in more direct ways. For instance:

Dread Knight: Generates a warp charge and is a psyker.

Trygons and Mawlocs: Can provide a tunnel to deepstrike other units in without scattering or in the case of the Prime, provide synapse (and can take a free strike at a unit when they tunnel up).

Gorkanaut - Morkanaut: (Morkanaut) provides a 5++ save to anything within 6 of the unit, not to mention anything their klaw scores an unsaved wound on is going at initiative 1 till the end of their next turn.


The riptide, meanwhile, kind of operates on its own and doesn't have any capabilities that can benefit other units as directly outside of maybe the markerlight and supporting fire (unless there is something I am unaware of).

That being said a points price adjustment is still needed.

Shaso_Keo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, I'm aware of how they work. And I still think the chassis can do too much for the points. One issue I have is that with 2+/5+++FNP, gets hot isn't even a thing for the Riptide.

FNP puts the riptide at 215 points. Thats a pretty big sink imo. It also does not make the ride invincible, i have lost my riptide due to gets hot rolls a few times. So it is something. As i have said before yes it is a tough unit, many other armies have T6+ units as well. The trick woth units like the riptide is volume of fire. A group of 10-20 guardsmen are more likely to kill the riptide than a tank is. Because the tide has just one save to make as opposed to the 20-40 shots of an infantry squad.


I keap bringing it up but try to kill a squad of thunderwolf cavalry with storm shield. 2+/3p
++ is damn near impossible. and they will whipe any squad they get a charge on.

How much does that cavalry squad cost?

Also, as I have stated, the Riptide killing itself on turn 5 after the enemy is decimated is a purely pyrrhic victory.

Martel732 wrote:

Shaso_Keo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, I'm aware of how they work. And I still think the chassis can do too much for the points. One issue I have is that with 2+/5+++FNP, gets hot isn't even a thing for the Riptide.

FNP puts the riptide at 215 points. Thats a pretty big sink imo. It also does not make the ride invincible, i have lost my riptide due to gets hot rolls a few times. So it is something. As i have said before yes it is a tough unit, many other armies have T6+ units as well. The trick woth units like the riptide is volume of fire. A group of 10-20 guardsmen are more likely to kill the riptide than a tank is. Because the tide has just one save to make as opposed to the 20-40 shots of an infantry squad.


I keap bringing it up but try to kill a squad of thunderwolf cavalry with storm shield. 2+/3p
++ is damn near impossible. and they will whipe any squad they get a charge on.

How much does that cavalry squad cost?

Also, as I have stated, the Riptide killing itself on turn 5 after the enemy is decimated is a purely pyrrhic victory.

3 Thunderwolfs have 6 lifepoints and with thundershields they cost 165pt.
I dont know if this is a good comparison cause these troops are completly different. Their durability is likly the same i have to agree with that but with a advantage to the Rip, therefore with T5 and native 4A -> in charge 6 they really kill everything that gets in there way.
Both, the Thunderwolfe cavalry and the Rip are great units but i wouldnt compare them to justify costs.

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Trygons and Mawlocs: Can provide a tunnel to deepstrike other units in without scattering or in the case of the Prime, provide synapse (and can take a free strike at a unit when they tunnel up).

Trygons (and Primes) cost more than a Riptide for far less survivability (worse armor save, no invul, no FNP). And the tunnel is so overrated it's not even funny.

And the Trygons can't take a free strike at a unit, only the Mawloc can. And the Mawloc can really only do that - it's about as good in CC as the Riptide is and has literally zero shooting.

Martel732 wrote:

Shaso_Keo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, I'm aware of how they work. And I still think the chassis can do too much for the points. One issue I have is that with 2+/5+++FNP, gets hot isn't even a thing for the Riptide.

FNP puts the riptide at 215 points. Thats a pretty big sink imo. It also does not make the ride invincible, i have lost my riptide due to gets hot rolls a few times. So it is something. As i have said before yes it is a tough unit, many other armies have T6+ units as well. The trick woth units like the riptide is volume of fire. A group of 10-20 guardsmen are more likely to kill the riptide than a tank is. Because the tide has just one save to make as opposed to the 20-40 shots of an infantry squad.


I keap bringing it up but try to kill a squad of thunderwolf cavalry with storm shield. 2+/3p
++ is damn near impossible. and they will whipe any squad they get a charge on.

How much does that cavalry squad cost?

Also, as I have stated, the Riptide killing itself on turn 5 after the enemy is decimated is a purely pyrrhic victory.

If you get 'decimated' at 1850 by a single Riptide then maybe the problem is more with your list and not the Riptide?

It's never just one. So the tri- or tetra- Riptide list decimates an enemy list and then the Tau loses *maybe* one to a gets hot roll. Sure seems worth it to me.

Martel732 wrote:
It's never just one. So the tri- or tetra- Riptide list decimates an enemy list and then the Tau loses *maybe* one to a gets hot roll. Sure seems worth it to me.

A few things. First off, we've already discussed the problems with your games. It's not the Riptide, it's the players and the tables. You can actively do something to fix your problem, but choose not to. We can't help you there.
The second is that you still want a solution that makes multiple Riptides bad and would ruin it for people that want to take one, and make sure nobody ever fields a HBC which will not fix the problem.
You keep harping on about how it can wipe out a lot of enemies. We get that. Everyone gets that. The IA is broken. Fine. Nobody has ever said otherwise in this thread that I am aware of.
Why does the HBC version have to suffer for that?

I only take 1 and sometimes it does nothing. Other times it does everything. A great way to weaken a riptide is to focus fire the marker light support, commanders and pathfinders. Without markerlights the tau army as a whole gets weaker.


Reason i compare to thunderwolf cavalry is that TWC is devastating against Tau and there is very little we can do against it. 12" move and a refilling charge is very threatening to Tau. I would dare say there is little tau can do to stop the wolves.

Well SW are extremely OP so there's no surprise that we struggle against them.

SGTPozy wrote:
Well SW are extremely OP so there's no surprise that we struggle against them.

Fire warriors destroy the thunderwolves before they even get in assault...get real.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shaso_Keo wrote:
I only take 1 and sometimes it does nothing. Other times it does everything. A great way to weaken a riptide is to focus fire the marker light support, commanders and pathfinders. Without markerlights the tau army as a whole gets weaker.


Reason i compare to thunderwolf cavalry is that TWC is devastating against Tau and there is very little we can do against it. 12" move and a refilling charge is very threatening to Tau. I would dare say there is little tau can do to stop the wolves.

Why don't you tarpit them with a riptide? It would take them all game to kill one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

xsharkmanx wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Shaso_Keo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, I'm aware of how they work. And I still think the chassis can do too much for the points. One issue I have is that with 2+/5+++FNP, gets hot isn't even a thing for the Riptide.

FNP puts the riptide at 215 points. Thats a pretty big sink imo. It also does not make the ride invincible, i have lost my riptide due to gets hot rolls a few times. So it is something. As i have said before yes it is a tough unit, many other armies have T6+ units as well. The trick woth units like the riptide is volume of fire. A group of 10-20 guardsmen are more likely to kill the riptide than a tank is. Because the tide has just one save to make as opposed to the 20-40 shots of an infantry squad.


I keap bringing it up but try to kill a squad of thunderwolf cavalry with storm shield. 2+/3p
++ is damn near impossible. and they will whipe any squad they get a charge on.

How much does that cavalry squad cost?

Also, as I have stated, the Riptide killing itself on turn 5 after the enemy is decimated is a purely pyrrhic victory.

3 Thunderwolfs have 6 lifepoints and with thundershields they cost 165pt.
I dont know if this is a good comparison cause these troops are completly different. Their durability is likly the same i have to agree with that but with a advantage to the Rip, therefore with T5 and native 4A -> in charge 6 they really kill everything that gets in there way.
Both, the Thunderwolfe cavalry and the Rip are great units but i wouldnt compare them to justify costs.

Their durability is significantly less. Riptides have t6 and 2+ save and a 5+ FNP. Vs small arms the riptide might as well be considered bullet proff. At t5 3++ Thunderwolves arent anymore survivable vs small arms than attack bikes - focus first from a few troop squads will bring them down.