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Martel732 wrote: How fast is this TWC? Don't they get just a 12" move?
Yep.
Move 12, Run T1
Move 12, Charge T2
It never seems this easy for my jump infantry. I guess because they're usually dead. SW are now better at jump infantry than BA, lol.
Well, they aren't jump infantry. They are more mini MC's if they are anything.
Forgot to mention fleet, which makes the run move and charge pretty good.
It's one reason that people playing World eaters using the SW codex. They do the juggy marines very well
I always feel conflicted on jump infantry, I love my GK Interceptors 30 inch shunt, then hammer of wrath charge turn after that. Some of the best jump infantry right there in the game if you ask me.
But I swear it just sometimes doesn't feel worth it because the smart opponent will just charge them before they get to.
Quickjager wrote: I always feel conflicted on jump infantry, I love my GK Interceptors 30 inch shunt, then hammer of wrath charge turn after that. Some of the best jump infantry right there in the game if you ask me.
But I swear it just sometimes doesn't feel worth it because the smart opponent will just charge them before they get to.
Preventing this from happening is one of the difficult tasks with BA. It's also why I haven't lost an army swap match since 5th ed. I know BA far too well.
Quickjager wrote: I always feel conflicted on jump infantry, I love my GK Interceptors 30 inch shunt, then hammer of wrath charge turn after that. Some of the best jump infantry right there in the game if you ask me.
But I swear it just sometimes doesn't feel worth it because the smart opponent will just charge them before they get to.
It's why I like SW. They are the only marine force that does CC well, because they have large charge ranges or still can do CC if they get charged very well. Most marine armies, lacking usable assault vectors, just get charged so its not so devastating (losing half or a third of your attacks is devastating, its the different between striking T4 to T6 I believe with Str 5 weapons, to give Tau an idea) even if the enemy unit can't win.
But this is wildly off topic.
I stand by my last post.
Tau are too easy to play with too many tools in the box. Some changes should be made. I haven't played mine in a long time due to this.
Nerf Tau? ok change how markerlights work. I don't believe any Tau unit is that unreasonable without markerlight support. I have played against a few triple or quad riptide armies, and once the markerlights are gone... they're really ineffective.
Make it so that you need 3 or 4 markerlights to completely ignore cover. I know it has been this way forever, but really, this is where Tau get incredible.
Another tip against gunlines is to play more mobile missions. The missions you play greatly affect how you play your army. BAO or ETC style use maelstrom heavily, and a gunline force will never be able to collect objectives, but the more traditional Eternal War missions promote static gunline play.
In my local area (Northeastern US), I see a lot of combinations missions, like BAO and ETC, or even the Asymmetrical missions NOVA used... these all promote mobile armies and tend to hinder the more gunline style.
This, like many small factors (like LOS blocking terrain), do a lot to level the playing field for a more competitive game. This is true for all armies. Assault armies can get in against a foe who has to engage the battlefield on some level, and also it creates a more skilled Eldar/Tau player who actually has to rely on firing lanes and such. SMS and Seeker missiles are good but they won't touch a Land Raider, or they'll struggle against Annihilation Barges and such. It creates more situations to use tactics and strategy, which makes a fun game.
I have played against Tau quite a few times at local tournaments and some major GTs in this area, and they all feature some type of advanced mission set, as well as dense LOS blocking terrain... and no one seems to worry about Tau. They're always in the running, but no one is complaining about them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/12 20:42:23
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It sort of does. Crisis suits are supposed to be more of a sentinel/dread scale model. Even the new Broadside kind of shows that they were trying to design these things to be larger.
The only problem was balance issues, basically having the entirety of the elite, HQ, and HS slots being filled with units that would be immune to most small arms and be fairly mobile, but far more susceptible to actual damage results.
I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."
"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby
It sort of does. Crisis suits are supposed to be more of a sentinel/dread scale model. Even the new Broadside kind of shows that they were trying to design these things to be larger.
The only problem was balance issues, basically having the entirety of the elite, HQ, and HS slots being filled with units that would be immune to most small arms and be fairly mobile, but far more susceptible to actual damage results.
They would have to adjust the lore then. All battlesuits are described as being "worn" at the current moment.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/13 00:26:10
It sort of does. Crisis suits are supposed to be more of a sentinel/dread scale model. Even the new Broadside kind of shows that they were trying to design these things to be larger.
The only problem was balance issues, basically having the entirety of the elite, HQ, and HS slots being filled with units that would be immune to most small arms and be fairly mobile, but far more susceptible to actual damage results.
They would have to adjust the lore then. All battlesuits are described as being "worn" at the current moment.
It sort of does. Crisis suits are supposed to be more of a sentinel/dread scale model. Even the new Broadside kind of shows that they were trying to design these things to be larger.
The only problem was balance issues, basically having the entirety of the elite, HQ, and HS slots being filled with units that would be immune to most small arms and be fairly mobile, but far more susceptible to actual damage results.
They would have to adjust the lore then. All battlesuits are described as being "worn" at the current moment.
In the same way a driver wears a car?
I don't know, can you ? This is 40k so I won't rule out anything being outright impossible.
Desubot wrote: Well Technically a Dreadnought is being worn by basically what is a vegetable and is being controlled by its brain directly.
I really do think the difference just comes down to how clunky the machine is.
basically how nimble they actually are and if they could technically get back up unassisted if they fall down.
At least thats the metric i am seeing between walkers and MC
That is a good point.
But on another note, can the smaller infantry battlesuits fire more than two weapons a turn or can they fire all of them ? I notice one variant has 3 weapons so.
Martel732 wrote: It's never just one. So the tri- or tetra- Riptide list decimates an enemy list and then the Tau loses *maybe* one to a gets hot roll. Sure seems worth it to me.
You're just so wrong it's not funny. I was at a semi-local game store this weekend and my first opponent had 4 Riptides in his list. Ignoring the fact his list was illegal (too many ECPA's), I tabled him easily in 6 turns. His list was:
Spoiler:
Farsight
O'Vesa (IC Riptide)
Commander with VT, TL, 2xMP
Riptide with HBC, VT, FNP, ECPA
Riptide with IA, EWO, FNP Riptide with IA, EWO, FNP
3-man XV8's with 2xMP, TL 6-man FW team
4-man Pathfinder team.
Allied Tau:
Buffcommander
6-man FW team.
4-man Pathfinder team.
And my list was:
Spoiler:
Kahn on a bike
Chapter Master with artificer, shield eternal, thunder hammer, bike
Command squad with bikes, 4x grav guns, apothecary
5-man Bike Troop Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, combi-melta, meltabomb
5-man Bike Troop Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, combi-melta, meltabomb
4-man Bike FA Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, meltabomb
Knight Errant
Knight Paladin
The mission was Hammer and anvil, Relic. That gave those Riptides plenty of range to just remove my models, so I instead outplayed him. He had first turn and deployed in the middle of his deployment zone putting the missile commander, buff-commander, farsight, and o'vesa into the crisis suit team. I put down both knights on the line roughly in the middle of my zone and outflanked all my bikes. I had 3 squads come in turn 2 (had lost a knight already) and only the small melta squad got to choose their side. Despite the infamous S8 AP2 Large Blast intercepting, at the end of turn 5 he had 1 riptide with a couple wounds on him, and I had about half of my bikes. The riptide is beatable. If you can't beat it, look at yourself and ask what you are doing wrong.
Martel732 wrote: It's never just one. So the tri- or tetra- Riptide list decimates an enemy list and then the Tau loses *maybe* one to a gets hot roll. Sure seems worth it to me.
You're just so wrong it's not funny. I was at a semi-local game store this weekend and my first opponent had 4 Riptides in his list. Ignoring the fact his list was illegal (too many ECPA's), I tabled him easily in 6 turns. His list was:
Spoiler:
Farsight
O'Vesa (IC Riptide)
Commander with VT, TL, 2xMP
Riptide with HBC, VT, FNP, ECPA
Riptide with IA, EWO, FNP Riptide with IA, EWO, FNP
3-man XV8's with 2xMP, TL 6-man FW team
4-man Pathfinder team.
Allied Tau:
Buffcommander
6-man FW team.
4-man Pathfinder team.
And my list was:
Spoiler:
Kahn on a bike
Chapter Master with artificer, shield eternal, thunder hammer, bike
Command squad with bikes, 4x grav guns, apothecary
5-man Bike Troop Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, combi-melta, meltabomb
5-man Bike Troop Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, combi-melta, meltabomb
4-man Bike FA Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, meltabomb
Knight Errant
Knight Paladin
The mission was Hammer and anvil, Relic. That gave those Riptides plenty of range to just remove my models, so I instead outplayed him. He had first turn and deployed in the middle of his deployment zone putting the missile commander, buff-commander, farsight, and o'vesa into the crisis suit team. I put down both knights on the line roughly in the middle of my zone and outflanked all my bikes. I had 3 squads come in turn 2 (had lost a knight already) and only the small melta squad got to choose their side. Despite the infamous S8 AP2 Large Blast intercepting, at the end of turn 5 he had 1 riptide with a couple wounds on him, and I had about half of my bikes. The riptide is beatable. If you can't beat it, look at yourself and ask what you are doing wrong.
Martel732 wrote: It's never just one. So the tri- or tetra- Riptide list decimates an enemy list and then the Tau loses *maybe* one to a gets hot roll. Sure seems worth it to me.
You're just so wrong it's not funny. I was at a semi-local game store this weekend and my first opponent had 4 Riptides in his list. Ignoring the fact his list was illegal (too many ECPA's), I tabled him easily in 6 turns. His list was:
Spoiler:
Farsight
O'Vesa (IC Riptide)
Commander with VT, TL, 2xMP
Riptide with HBC, VT, FNP, ECPA
Riptide with IA, EWO, FNP Riptide with IA, EWO, FNP
3-man XV8's with 2xMP, TL 6-man FW team
4-man Pathfinder team.
Allied Tau:
Buffcommander
6-man FW team.
4-man Pathfinder team.
And my list was:
Spoiler:
Kahn on a bike
Chapter Master with artificer, shield eternal, thunder hammer, bike
Command squad with bikes, 4x grav guns, apothecary
5-man Bike Troop Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, combi-melta, meltabomb
5-man Bike Troop Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, combi-melta, meltabomb
4-man Bike FA Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, meltabomb
Knight Errant
Knight Paladin
The mission was Hammer and anvil, Relic. That gave those Riptides plenty of range to just remove my models, so I instead outplayed him. He had first turn and deployed in the middle of his deployment zone putting the missile commander, buff-commander, farsight, and o'vesa into the crisis suit team. I put down both knights on the line roughly in the middle of my zone and outflanked all my bikes. I had 3 squads come in turn 2 (had lost a knight already) and only the small melta squad got to choose their side. Despite the infamous S8 AP2 Large Blast intercepting, at the end of turn 5 he had 1 riptide with a couple wounds on him, and I had about half of my bikes. The riptide is beatable. If you can't beat it, look at yourself and ask what you are doing wrong.
...dude that list is built to kill MC and Knights...
Martel732 wrote: It's never just one. So the tri- or tetra- Riptide list decimates an enemy list and then the Tau loses *maybe* one to a gets hot roll. Sure seems worth it to me.
You're just so wrong it's not funny. I was at a semi-local game store this weekend and my first opponent had 4 Riptides in his list. Ignoring the fact his list was illegal (too many ECPA's), I tabled him easily in 6 turns. His list was:
Spoiler:
Farsight
O'Vesa (IC Riptide)
Commander with VT, TL, 2xMP
Riptide with HBC, VT, FNP, ECPA
Riptide with IA, EWO, FNP Riptide with IA, EWO, FNP
3-man XV8's with 2xMP, TL 6-man FW team
4-man Pathfinder team.
Allied Tau:
Buffcommander
6-man FW team.
4-man Pathfinder team.
And my list was:
Spoiler:
Kahn on a bike
Chapter Master with artificer, shield eternal, thunder hammer, bike
Command squad with bikes, 4x grav guns, apothecary
5-man Bike Troop Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, combi-melta, meltabomb
5-man Bike Troop Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, combi-melta, meltabomb
4-man Bike FA Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, meltabomb
Knight Errant
Knight Paladin
The mission was Hammer and anvil, Relic. That gave those Riptides plenty of range to just remove my models, so I instead outplayed him. He had first turn and deployed in the middle of his deployment zone putting the missile commander, buff-commander, farsight, and o'vesa into the crisis suit team. I put down both knights on the line roughly in the middle of my zone and outflanked all my bikes. I had 3 squads come in turn 2 (had lost a knight already) and only the small melta squad got to choose their side. Despite the infamous S8 AP2 Large Blast intercepting, at the end of turn 5 he had 1 riptide with a couple wounds on him, and I had about half of my bikes. The riptide is beatable. If you can't beat it, look at yourself and ask what you are doing wrong.
So run Knights and all bikes? Pretty sure that list could do well against a lot of armies.
Martel732 wrote: It's never just one. So the tri- or tetra- Riptide list decimates an enemy list and then the Tau loses *maybe* one to a gets hot roll. Sure seems worth it to me.
You're just so wrong it's not funny. I was at a semi-local game store this weekend and my first opponent had 4 Riptides in his list. Ignoring the fact his list was illegal (too many ECPA's), I tabled him easily in 6 turns. His list was:
Spoiler:
Farsight
O'Vesa (IC Riptide)
Commander with VT, TL, 2xMP
Riptide with HBC, VT, FNP, ECPA
Riptide with IA, EWO, FNP Riptide with IA, EWO, FNP
3-man XV8's with 2xMP, TL 6-man FW team
4-man Pathfinder team.
Allied Tau:
Buffcommander
6-man FW team.
4-man Pathfinder team.
And my list was:
Spoiler:
Kahn on a bike
Chapter Master with artificer, shield eternal, thunder hammer, bike
Command squad with bikes, 4x grav guns, apothecary
5-man Bike Troop Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, combi-melta, meltabomb
5-man Bike Troop Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, combi-melta, meltabomb
4-man Bike FA Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, meltabomb
Knight Errant
Knight Paladin
The mission was Hammer and anvil, Relic. That gave those Riptides plenty of range to just remove my models, so I instead outplayed him. He had first turn and deployed in the middle of his deployment zone putting the missile commander, buff-commander, farsight, and o'vesa into the crisis suit team. I put down both knights on the line roughly in the middle of my zone and outflanked all my bikes. I had 3 squads come in turn 2 (had lost a knight already) and only the small melta squad got to choose their side. Despite the infamous S8 AP2 Large Blast intercepting, at the end of turn 5 he had 1 riptide with a couple wounds on him, and I had about half of my bikes. The riptide is beatable. If you can't beat it, look at yourself and ask what you are doing wrong.
...dude that list is built to kill MC and Knights...
You bring 2 titans...lol he had no method to deal with them. No fussion. No AP 1 at all. Let me guess you had all your troops dead and 2 knights ran down all 4 remaining riptides and rolled 6's to wound. Or you got lucky and your bikes never showed up...usually this would be bad for knights but since your opponent had no antitank he got wrecked.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Martel732 wrote: It's never just one. So the tri- or tetra- Riptide list decimates an enemy list and then the Tau loses *maybe* one to a gets hot roll. Sure seems worth it to me.
You're just so wrong it's not funny. I was at a semi-local game store this weekend and my first opponent had 4 Riptides in his list. Ignoring the fact his list was illegal (too many ECPA's), I tabled him easily in 6 turns. His list was:
Spoiler:
Farsight
O'Vesa (IC Riptide)
Commander with VT, TL, 2xMP
Riptide with HBC, VT, FNP, ECPA
Riptide with IA, EWO, FNP Riptide with IA, EWO, FNP
3-man XV8's with 2xMP, TL 6-man FW team
4-man Pathfinder team.
Allied Tau:
Buffcommander
6-man FW team.
4-man Pathfinder team.
And my list was:
Spoiler:
Kahn on a bike
Chapter Master with artificer, shield eternal, thunder hammer, bike
Command squad with bikes, 4x grav guns, apothecary
5-man Bike Troop Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, combi-melta, meltabomb
5-man Bike Troop Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, combi-melta, meltabomb
4-man Bike FA Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, meltabomb
Knight Errant
Knight Paladin
The mission was Hammer and anvil, Relic. That gave those Riptides plenty of range to just remove my models, so I instead outplayed him. He had first turn and deployed in the middle of his deployment zone putting the missile commander, buff-commander, farsight, and o'vesa into the crisis suit team. I put down both knights on the line roughly in the middle of my zone and outflanked all my bikes. I had 3 squads come in turn 2 (had lost a knight already) and only the small melta squad got to choose their side. Despite the infamous S8 AP2 Large Blast intercepting, at the end of turn 5 he had 1 riptide with a couple wounds on him, and I had about half of my bikes. The riptide is beatable. If you can't beat it, look at yourself and ask what you are doing wrong.
Use less knights, then adopt that attitude
Like it or not, knights ARE in the game and they're a free (in the sense they require no other unit 'tax' to be taken and are Battle Brothers) choice fir all IoM armies.
Maybe most IoM players should take more knights to fifht Riptudes if it works so well?
The fact that there is a codex for super-heavy units says there is a lot more eligible in the game for the "nerf-bat" than just the tau if there is any nerfing to be done.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/13 05:25:41
The Imperial Knights themselves are actually quite balanced.
The problem is that several of them are too many for a TAC list to destroy.
IKs are stronger with allies, and that's only because allies cover their weaknesses (better ranged-based AT, AA) and can buff them.
IA Riptides are not balanced, however, and should pay extra for the IA.
The reason that the Tau list lost so bad to that list is that they had no reliable AT vs AV 13 and were up against bikemarines designed to slaughter AV/MCs
I have to laugh at this, so the Imperial Knight is crappy when compared to a Riptide but then when two of them are used in a game they are suddenly to strong?! Like really? One thing about Fusion to mention as well, it is only an 18inch range meaning it would have to get within 9 inches for the melta rule. That means your "underpowered" or "overpowered Knight" (in regards to the sudden change of opinion listed above apparently) has a VERY good chance of assaulting said Riptide in combat and beating it down.
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
Martel732 wrote: It's never just one. So the tri- or tetra- Riptide list decimates an enemy list and then the Tau loses *maybe* one to a gets hot roll. Sure seems worth it to me.
You're just so wrong it's not funny. I was at a semi-local game store this weekend and my first opponent had 4 Riptides in his list. Ignoring the fact his list was illegal (too many ECPA's), I tabled him easily in 6 turns. His list was:
Spoiler:
Farsight
O'Vesa (IC Riptide)
Commander with VT, TL, 2xMP
Riptide with HBC, VT, FNP, ECPA
Riptide with IA, EWO, FNP Riptide with IA, EWO, FNP
3-man XV8's with 2xMP, TL 6-man FW team
4-man Pathfinder team.
Allied Tau:
Buffcommander
6-man FW team.
4-man Pathfinder team.
And my list was:
Spoiler:
Kahn on a bike
Chapter Master with artificer, shield eternal, thunder hammer, bike
Command squad with bikes, 4x grav guns, apothecary
5-man Bike Troop Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, combi-melta, meltabomb
5-man Bike Troop Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, combi-melta, meltabomb
4-man Bike FA Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, meltabomb
Knight Errant
Knight Paladin
The mission was Hammer and anvil, Relic. That gave those Riptides plenty of range to just remove my models, so I instead outplayed him. He had first turn and deployed in the middle of his deployment zone putting the missile commander, buff-commander, farsight, and o'vesa into the crisis suit team. I put down both knights on the line roughly in the middle of my zone and outflanked all my bikes. I had 3 squads come in turn 2 (had lost a knight already) and only the small melta squad got to choose their side. Despite the infamous S8 AP2 Large Blast intercepting, at the end of turn 5 he had 1 riptide with a couple wounds on him, and I had about half of my bikes. The riptide is beatable. If you can't beat it, look at yourself and ask what you are doing wrong.
...dude that list is built to kill MC and Knights...
You bring 2 titans...lol he had no method to deal with them. No fussion. No AP 1 at all. Let me guess you had all your troops dead and 2 knights ran down all 4 remaining riptides and rolled 6's to wound. Or you got lucky and your bikes never showed up...usually this would be bad for knights but since your opponent had no antitank he got wrecked.
Just realized I was unclear, the SM players list was designed to kill the aforementioned.
gmaleron wrote: I have to laugh at this, so the Imperial Knight is crappy when compared to a Riptide but then when two of them are used in a game they are suddenly to strong?! Like really? One thing about Fusion to mention as well, it is only an 18inch range meaning it would have to get within 9 inches for the melta rule. That means your "underpowered" or "overpowered Knight" (in regards to the sudden change of opinion listed above apparently) has a VERY good chance of assaulting said Riptide in combat and beating it down.
Did I say IKs were gak? No, I said they were balanced (not "underpowered", jeez I never said that once) for the cost.
Multiples aren't OP, just very rock-paper-scissory. Most TAC lists can't deal with multiple AV 13 hull points easily. 2 shouldn't that much of a deal against a list with actual AT, which that Tau list lacked.
If you take a list entirely of IKs you will lose against armies with high amounts of flyers or AT, but almost instantly win against an army with low/no AT or even a moderate amount of AT. If you add allies in, those weaknesses are covered (like in the aforementioned list) making a stronger list. Those lists can be OP as you have few weaknesses, but even then they are typically just strong.
Did I say IKs will fold against Riptides? No. I just said IA riptides don't cost enough. IKs will still lay the hurt on them, but they should as they cost more. However, the IA riptide (note I'm only talking about IA riptides, non-IA are fine like IKs) is a bit under priced for what it does, or rather, can do.
If the Tau list had actual AT then it would have been a lot closer.
gmaleron wrote: I have to laugh at this, so the Imperial Knight is crappy when compared to a Riptide but then when two of them are used in a game they are suddenly to strong?! Like really? One thing about Fusion to mention as well, it is only an 18inch range meaning it would have to get within 9 inches for the melta rule. That means your "underpowered" or "overpowered Knight" (in regards to the sudden change of opinion listed above apparently) has a VERY good chance of assaulting said Riptide in combat and beating it down.
Did I say IKs were gak? No, I said they were balanced (not "underpowered", jeez I never said that once) for the cost.
Multiples aren't OP, just very rock-paper-scissory. Most TAC lists can't deal with multiple AV 13 hull points easily. 2 shouldn't that much of a deal against a list with actual AT, which that Tau list lacked.
If you take a list entirely of IKs you will lose against armies with high amounts of flyers or AT, but almost instantly win against an army with low/no AT or even a moderate amount of AT. If you add allies in, those weaknesses are covered (like in the aforementioned list) making a stronger list. Those lists can be OP as you have few weaknesses, but even then they are typically just strong.
Did I say IKs will fold against Riptides? No. I just said IA riptides don't cost enough. IKs will still lay the hurt on them, but they should as they cost more. However, the IA riptide (note I'm only talking about IA riptides, non-IA are fine like IKs) is a bit under priced for what it does, or rather, can do.
If the Tau list had actual AT then it would have been a lot closer.
Was not specifically targeting you man, just relating to earlier in this thread where Riptides were being compared to Imperial Knights and in some cases, even stated that the Riptide was stronger. If I came off as targeting you specifically that's my bad, but not the case!
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
~1.5k
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
