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You may not jump in, shoot off your argument and then jump away s that would be 'cheesy' now wouldn't it?

SGTPozy wrote:
You may not jump in, shoot off your argument and then jump away s that would be 'cheesy' now wouldn't it?

Very much how Riptides can do the same thing!!!!

 Konrax wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
You may not jump in, shoot off your argument and then jump away s that would be 'cheesy' now wouldn't it?

Very much how Riptides can do the same thing!!!!

That was the joke... You're complaining about the Riptideyet you want to do the same thing! Stay here and fight it out like a man!

 Konrax wrote:

 total0 wrote:

 total0 wrote:
1 imperium of man
2 eldars
3 tau
4 chaos
5 necrons
6 orks
7 nids

Taken from a recent post about army strength.

Yo dawg! Don't go dragging me into this!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Konrax wrote:
The thread on "how to fix waveserpents" is at 7 pages compared to "how to fix tau".

MercenStein wrote:
Eldar>Tau>IoM>Necron>Nids>Chaos>Orks

 Xenomancers wrote:
Eldar>Tau>IOM> everything else.

JuniorRS13 wrote:

MercenStein wrote:
Eldar>Tau>IoM>Necron>Nids>Chaos>Orks

This. Although I might flip flop orks and chaos on certain days.

If we broke down IOM though, Knights would be first.

Rank 3

 total0 wrote:
1 imperium of man
2 eldars
3 tau
4 chaos
5 necrons
6 orks
7 nids

Taken from a recent post about army strength.

Please note the opinions referred to here have no support / bearing on my opinions and are in no way affiliated with awesauce shark slaying vikings.

I just want the rest of the top 4 codexes updated to 7th already... with how it's going we already KNOW there are going to be nerfs.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Melcavuk wrote:
If it gets hot it also doesnt fire, which is the main drawback, taking the wound is like 1/36 chance.

So yes it can do a Str 9 AP2 large blast.

If it does its nova charge
If it doesnt get hot.

However this also drops its invul save back to a 5+ (nova charging the gun, not the shield).

If it gets hot you missed anyways.

Its a blast, so gets hot is a whole other roll compared to actually hitting something.

I should have said:

if it does its nova charge
If it doesnt get hot
If it doesnt massively scatter.

I agree with OP.

"Alterations such as either a point increase..."

I'd like to see the Riptides current cost as it unarmed, much like Crisis suits are listed.

So 180 Stock, plus X for HBC, Y for IA, Z for Smart Missile system and so on.

 Konrax wrote:
I agree with OP.

"Alterations such as either a point increase..."

I don't think there has been anyone saying that the IA doesn't deserve a point increase.
What the majority of Tau players are against is changing the base of the Riptide either in points or stats since it would severely hinder the HBC which has proven to be fairly balanced.

 Melcavuk wrote:
I'd like to see the Riptides current cost as it unarmed, much like Crisis suits are listed.

So 180 Stock, plus X for HBC, Y for IA, Z for Smart Missile system and so on.

Would make sense, many other units work this way also.

 Quickjager wrote:
I just want the rest of the top 4 codexes updated to 7th already... with how it's going we already KNOW there are going to be nerfs.

Rumours have it that 6th edition codices will not be updated in the foreseeable future... So Necrons will likely be needed but Eldar, SM and IK will still be there (and Tau will become number 4).

Yeah there is mixed rumours about what is going to happen with chaos, so we shall see.

Man this thread is loooong!

 Konrax wrote:
Maybe in a world where numbers actually functioned properly you would see based on this small sample size of 7 people, more than 50% would agree with me, which im not counted in this data.

With me it would be 5/8 which would be 62.5% in favour of my statement based on a recent opinion poll.

But hey forget the math and throw it out the window, I am still wrong despite evidence provided even if it is opinion to reinforce a question that has no non-opinion based answer.

Based on everything I've seen here, Tau is perfectly balanced in every way possible based on Tau Math. (TM)

You do realize that your argument was 'people rank Tau as either the #1-2 Codex in the game right now' Out of the guys you quoted only 2 list Tau in top 2. So I guess that makes it 2/8, or 25% in favor of your statement.

Also, you cherry-picked 5 guys that seem to agree with you out of a while thread. Without linking the whole thread, that very biased (willingly or not), as there's no way for us to tell if there's 5/6 replies in that thread, or 5/500.

rigeld2 wrote:

No, really - if I don't have a 2+ cover or lots of BLOS terrain in my deployment zone I'm guaranteed to lose at least 1 Flyrant, and usually 2, before they can take off against a good shooting list.

But once the rest are airborne (you do have more than 1-2 right?) they will wreck face. A Riptide without Markerlight support loses a significant chunk of damage too (via lower BS and not ignoring cover)

rigeld2 wrote:
I thought we were discussing all Riptides, not just the IA? That's been my goal this entire thread.
Regardless, 3 S7 shots is decent AA, but not amazing. It's significantly more than an IK can do.

3 S7 shots at BS 3 is decent AA? 1.5 hit on average, resulting in:
0.99 HP/round vs AV 10
0.75 HP/round vs. AV 11
0.5 HP/round vs. AV 12
That's pathetically low to be honest. You're wasting at least half of the game to shoot down one flier with a unit that could be killing tons of other stuff in the meanwhile.

rigeld2 wrote:
Incorrect. The NDK has to advance to use his anti-horde weapons. If he uses his Torrent Template weapon he's within assault range. I can't tell you the number of times a Tervigon has kept a DK or two tied up all game by spawning gants.
The NDK moves up to take out one unit and can't assault that turn. Since you're a smart general, you have your tarpit unit in front of your important unit. It loses some dudes to the template and then assaults on your turn. It's not like any MC can just shoot and then jump away OH WAIT THE RIPTIDE CAN.

Heavy Incinerator is Torrent. Aka can be fired safely from outside maximum charge range (18 inches). To reach him with your footslogging tarpitting unit needs to run on first turn and then hope he doesn't move back in turn 2 so you can reach him. Once your tarpitters are out of position chasing him, the NDK can just shont to another side of the board and mind his own business.

LordBlades wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

No, really - if I don't have a 2+ cover or lots of BLOS terrain in my deployment zone I'm guaranteed to lose at least 1 Flyrant, and usually 2, before they can take off against a good shooting list.

But once the rest are airborne (you do have more than 1-2 right?) they will wreck face. A Riptide without Markerlight support loses a significant chunk of damage too (via lower BS and not ignoring cover)

You're exaggerating the loss one (on average IME) BS has. Most of the time the lights are used to remove cover. Comparing the loss of a BS or two to the loss of 1-2 240 point models is amusing though.
And the statement I was replying to (that you neglected to quote) was "Flyrants it's nice to have, not need, not like X points of only flyrants will be alphed that easily by X points of something else."
It's not "nice to have". It has to be had.

rigeld2 wrote:
I thought we were discussing all Riptides, not just the IA? That's been my goal this entire thread.
Regardless, 3 S7 shots is decent AA, but not amazing. It's significantly more than an IK can do.

3 S7 shots at BS 3 is decent AA? 1.5 hit on average, resulting in:
0.99 HP/round vs AV 10
0.75 HP/round vs. AV 11
0.5 HP/round vs. AV 12
That's pathetically low to be honest. You're wasting at least half of the game to shoot down one flier with a unit that could be killing tons of other stuff in the meanwhile.

Assuming you're only ever using the one Riptide sure. But that's stupid and you wouldn't do that.
And you're also concentrating on the IA Riptide, when most people put Skyfire on a Burstide because it's significantly more effective.
It's okay - you can pretend there isn't a 3 man broadside team over there that can throw up dozens of non-skyfire S7 shots to kill flyers.

rigeld2 wrote:
Incorrect. The NDK has to advance to use his anti-horde weapons. If he uses his Torrent Template weapon he's within assault range. I can't tell you the number of times a Tervigon has kept a DK or two tied up all game by spawning gants.
The NDK moves up to take out one unit and can't assault that turn. Since you're a smart general, you have your tarpit unit in front of your important unit. It loses some dudes to the template and then assaults on your turn. It's not like any MC can just shoot and then jump away OH WAIT THE RIPTIDE CAN.

Heavy Incinerator is Torrent. Aka can be fired safely from outside maximum charge range (18 inches). To reach him with your footslogging tarpitting unit needs to run on first turn and then hope he doesn't move back in turn 2 so you can reach him. Once your tarpitters are out of position chasing him, the NDK can just shont to another side of the board and mind his own business.

I know it's Torrent - I said as much. If it's fired from that maximum range it might - maybe - hit 2 models. I'll let him kill 2 models.
And no - if he wants to use his Torrent weapon effectively he needs to shunt turn one and then fire. Meaning he's within range to assault.

And in addition - if I force the NDK to shunt away from where my army is I've neutralized him.. Why? Because his maximum range is so short and he can't shoot and then run.

rigeld2 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I thought we were discussing all Riptides, not just the IA? That's been my goal this entire thread.
Regardless, 3 S7 shots is decent AA, but not amazing. It's significantly more than an IK can do.

3 S7 shots at BS 3 is decent AA? 1.5 hit on average, resulting in:
0.99 HP/round vs AV 10
0.75 HP/round vs. AV 11
0.5 HP/round vs. AV 12
That's pathetically low to be honest. You're wasting at least half of the game to shoot down one flier with a unit that could be killing tons of other stuff in the meanwhile.

Assuming you're only ever using the one Riptide sure. But that's stupid and you wouldn't do that.
And you're also concentrating on the IA Riptide, when most people put Skyfire on a Burstide because it's significantly more effective.
It's okay - you can pretend there isn't a 3 man broadside team over there that can throw up dozens of non-skyfire S7 shots to kill flyers.

So, you say 3 S7 shots is decent AA. Someone says it isn't.
You respond by saying it's perfectly fine as long as you have a bunch of other AA or take the other gun for AA.
Moving the goal post, a bit aren't we?

 Savageconvoy wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I thought we were discussing all Riptides, not just the IA? That's been my goal this entire thread.
Regardless, 3 S7 shots is decent AA, but not amazing. It's significantly more than an IK can do.

3 S7 shots at BS 3 is decent AA? 1.5 hit on average, resulting in:
0.99 HP/round vs AV 10
0.75 HP/round vs. AV 11
0.5 HP/round vs. AV 12
That's pathetically low to be honest. You're wasting at least half of the game to shoot down one flier with a unit that could be killing tons of other stuff in the meanwhile.

Assuming you're only ever using the one Riptide sure. But that's stupid and you wouldn't do that.
And you're also concentrating on the IA Riptide, when most people put Skyfire on a Burstide because it's significantly more effective.
It's okay - you can pretend there isn't a 3 man broadside team over there that can throw up dozens of non-skyfire S7 shots to kill flyers.

So, you say 3 S7 shots is decent AA. Someone says it isn't.
You respond by saying it's perfectly fine as long as you have a bunch of other AA or take the other gun for AA.
Moving the goal post, a bit aren't we?

Can we say the following instead?
Tau as an army do not have many issues dealing with fliers. This is not true for all armies, and many have to use allies or attempt to ignore them.

In general they seem to be weakening fliers (if the necron codex weakens them too I won't care that SW can't deal with them) but for some armies they can be a real problem depending on your build.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I thought we were discussing all Riptides, not just the IA? That's been my goal this entire thread.
Regardless, 3 S7 shots is decent AA, but not amazing. It's significantly more than an IK can do.

3 S7 shots at BS 3 is decent AA? 1.5 hit on average, resulting in:
0.99 HP/round vs AV 10
0.75 HP/round vs. AV 11
0.5 HP/round vs. AV 12
That's pathetically low to be honest. You're wasting at least half of the game to shoot down one flier with a unit that could be killing tons of other stuff in the meanwhile.

Assuming you're only ever using the one Riptide sure. But that's stupid and you wouldn't do that.
And you're also concentrating on the IA Riptide, when most people put Skyfire on a Burstide because it's significantly more effective.
It's okay - you can pretend there isn't a 3 man broadside team over there that can throw up dozens of non-skyfire S7 shots to kill flyers.

So, you say 3 S7 shots is decent AA. Someone says it isn't.
You respond by saying it's perfectly fine as long as you have a bunch of other AA or take the other gun for AA.
Moving the goal post, a bit aren't we?

No. It's decent AA and I stand by that. It's more than some armies have, similar to what a lot of others have (comparing to the quad gun).
And again - he's ignoring the Burstide (my original post didn't exclude it, he did). But that doesn't help you prove your point.
Goal posts haven't moved.

rigeld2 wrote:

Regardless, 3 S7 shots is decent AA, but not amazing. It's significantly more than an IK can do.

rigeld2 wrote:
he's ignoring the Burstide (my original post didn't exclude it, he did).

Your original post was about 3 S7 shots on their own. I'm not saying Tau don't have access to AA, but what you're arguing isn't what you're saying.
If I said I can toss a brick and destroy a tank, then someone explains how tanks tend to be harder than bricks, I can't answer that he's ignoring that I would have strapped a few pounds of thermite and high explosives to it first.

The ONLY point I was trying to make was that you went from saying 3 S7 shots is decent AA to Tau have decent AA.

SGTPozy wrote:
Why do people always want to compare Tau with 'bad' codices? They are compared to CSM and BA and people are surprised that Tau win. CSM have their strengths through formations and allies - same as for BA - but Tau don't really have other (yet).

Compare your CSM or BA to SM or SW and then complain about those armies; give Tau a break.

Tau will get a break when I get a break from playing them.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I thought we were discussing all Riptides, not just the IA? That's been my goal this entire thread.
Regardless, 3 S7 shots is decent AA, but not amazing. It's significantly more than an IK can do.

3 S7 shots at BS 3 is decent AA? 1.5 hit on average, resulting in:
0.99 HP/round vs AV 10
0.75 HP/round vs. AV 11
0.5 HP/round vs. AV 12
That's pathetically low to be honest. You're wasting at least half of the game to shoot down one flier with a unit that could be killing tons of other stuff in the meanwhile.

Assuming you're only ever using the one Riptide sure. But that's stupid and you wouldn't do that.
And you're also concentrating on the IA Riptide, when most people put Skyfire on a Burstide because it's significantly more effective.
It's okay - you can pretend there isn't a 3 man broadside team over there that can throw up dozens of non-skyfire S7 shots to kill flyers.

So, you say 3 S7 shots is decent AA. Someone says it isn't.
You respond by saying it's perfectly fine as long as you have a bunch of other AA or take the other gun for AA.
Moving the goal post, a bit aren't we?

No. It's decent AA and I stand by that. It's more than some armies have, similar to what a lot of others have (comparing to the quad gun).
And again - he's ignoring the Burstide (my original post didn't exclude it, he did). But that doesn't help you prove your point.
Goal posts haven't moved.

Let's rephrase: you said Riptide needs no support and works just fine on it's own, right?

Since a non-Schrödinger's Riptide can't field both IA and HBC at the same time:

-How does a IA Riptide deal with Air and heavy AV unsupported?
-How does a HBC Riptide deal with heavy AV and large amounts of MEQs and TEQs (maybe even in Drop Pods)?

Unless your argument was 'if you field a HBC Riptide and an IA Riptide you can deal with everything but since they're both riptides it counts as Riptide can deal with everything' ?

Martel732 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Why do people always want to compare Tau with 'bad' codices? They are compared to CSM and BA and people are surprised that Tau win. CSM have their strengths through formations and allies - same as for BA - but Tau don't really have other (yet).

Compare your CSM or BA to SM or SW and then complain about those armies; give Tau a break.

Tau will get a break when I get a break from playing them.

I suggest finding some new gaming partners then.

LordBlades wrote:Let's rephrase: you said Riptide needs no support and works just fine on it's own, right?

Um. No?

You said, and I'll quote:

I answered you

And then you decided to challenge my statements by singling out the IA riptide.


Please actually follow the conversation you began and you've been involved in.
Or, to prove your point, show the S7 shots a Knight can throw at the air. As a reminder, Heavy Stubbers are S4. If a Riptide needs, quote, "just as much AA support" then it obviously can't contribute at all except against AV10, right?
Oh, you proved that's incorrect. Therefore proving your statement incorrect. Thanks!

Savageconvoy wrote:Your original post was about 3 S7 shots on their own.

No, it wasn't. I said it was decent (it is) and it's more than IKs have (significantly more)

I'm not saying Tau don't have access to AA, but what you're arguing isn't what you're saying.
If I said I can toss a brick and destroy a tank, then someone explains how tanks tend to be harder than bricks, I can't answer that he's ignoring that I would have strapped a few pounds of thermite and high explosives to it first.

Perhaps follow the conversation and then you'll understand. I spoilered it for you.

The ONLY point I was trying to make was that you went from saying 3 S7 shots is decent AA to Tau have decent AA.

No, I haven't changed. 3 S7 shots is decent AA. It's not amazing. It can do work in a pinch. It's not something you can ignore. Which is exactly what you're trying to do.

rigeld2 wrote:

LordBlades wrote:Let's rephrase: you said Riptide needs no support and works just fine on it's own, right?

Um. No?

My bad there, and I apologize. Konrax said 'The Riptide bypasses all of that and is just flat out amazing in every way and doesn't need help from anything to be effective.' and you picked up the discussion so fast that I didn't notice it was another person, sorry

rigeld2 wrote:
Please actually follow the conversation you began and you've been involved in.
Or, to prove your point, show the S7 shots a Knight can throw at the air. As a reminder, Heavy Stubbers are S4. If a Riptide needs, quote, "just as much AA support" then it obviously can't contribute at all except against AV10, right?
Oh, you proved that's incorrect. Therefore proving your statement incorrect. Thanks!

Cerastus Knight Castigator: S7 AP3, Heavy 8, Twin-linked. It lands about 2.6 shots per round vs anti air, which is better than IA Riptide, even weighed per point.

rigeld2 wrote:
No, I haven't changed. 3 S7 shots is decent AA. It's not amazing. It can do work in a pinch. It's not something you can ignore. Which is exactly what you're trying to do.

I'm having a hard time to think of moments in the game where it would be more productive to have an IA Riptide shoot 3-4 turns to down a Scythe or Storm Talon for example rather than spend those 3-4 turns decimating ground forces with s8/9 AP2 pie plates.

LordBlades wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Please actually follow the conversation you began and you've been involved in.
Or, to prove your point, show the S7 shots a Knight can throw at the air. As a reminder, Heavy Stubbers are S4. If a Riptide needs, quote, "just as much AA support" then it obviously can't contribute at all except against AV10, right?
Oh, you proved that's incorrect. Therefore proving your statement incorrect. Thanks!

Cerastus Knight Castigator: S7 AP3, Heavy 8, Twin-linked. It lands about 2.6 shots per round vs anti air, which is better than IA Riptide, even weighed per point.

Sorry - I'm not familiar with the forgeworld Knights, just the codex ones. Heavy 8 TL is actually 2.4 hit snap shooting.
Velocity Tracker is Skyfire, right? So IA + VT + FNP is 240 points. 2.4/1.5 is 1.6 - so the Castigator needs to cost 384 points to make him equivalent to a Riptide.
He costs 380. Close enough. I have no idea how the FW riptides stack up AA wise, so I'll give that one to you.

rigeld2 wrote:
No, I haven't changed. 3 S7 shots is decent AA. It's not amazing. It can do work in a pinch. It's not something you can ignore. Which is exactly what you're trying to do.

I'm having a hard time to think of moments in the game where it would be more productive to have an IA Riptide shoot 3-4 turns to down a Scythe or Storm Talon for example rather than spend those 3-4 turns decimating ground forces with s8/9 AP2 pie plates.

Wait - so decent anti air isn't as good as amazing anti-ground? Who woulda thunk it?

My point wasn't that it was great AA and you should always use it and if you don't you're silly. It's that the option exists and a general who refuses to acknowledge it as an option is foolish.

rigeld2 wrote:

My point wasn't that it was great AA and you should always use it and if you don't you're silly. It's that the option exists and a general who refuses to acknowledge it as an option is foolish.

Of course.

My point is that, in order to get that 'decent anti-air' on an IA Riptide you'd have to use one support system slot for the Skyfire subsystem and drop one of the far superior IMO FnP and Interceptor subsystem.

I really can't imagine a circumstance where I would do that:

If I don't know what I'm fighting FnP and Interceptor on IA Riptide makes more sense
If I know I'm against a flier heavy list, HBC instead of IA and Skyfire makes more sense.

Personally I would never take the velocity tracker.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's 20points I find worthless

Why not both?

Why are all Riptides IA or HBC? With the effectiveness of a HBC tide against air, doesn't it make sense to run 1+ IA tides and 1 Burst tide?

Since that's exactly what Knights would need to do, for example. So I really don't understand your objection.

"Why are all Riptides IA or HBC? With the effectiveness of a HBC tide against air, doesn't it make sense to run 1+ IA tides and 1 Burst tide? "

This is how I would use Tau, but I keep seeing triple IA. All the players quit using CSM, and so there is no air that Tau care about. Stormravens are too overcosted to threaten a tight Tau list.

Martel732 wrote:
Stormravens are too overcosted to threaten a tight Tau list.

Honest question.... Do you think the Blood Angels formation changes this? Specifically the one which allows for assault from deep strike. Somehow storm ravens factor in. I can get more details if you don't know about it.