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Hey all

I recently got back into the hobby and have been checking out the armies. I recently read A Thousand Sons and thought they were pretty interesting so I'm looking into creating a 40K Thousand Sons army. The army id like to create is primarily thousand sons themed and not a mix match, so no Khorn or Plague Marines, just pure Tzeentch Thousand Sons.

Trouble is I don't know much about Chaos or about the latest rules for that matter. Anyone here Chaos/Thousand Sons players?
I was wondering how to go about it. Do any of the Rubric marine rules apply to other units in the army such as Terminators/Raptors or is the Thousand sons look just an aesthetic/normal chaos rules?

In terms of aesthetic/fluff, do most Thousand sons have the Egyptian themed Blue/yellow.... Hat? On their heads. So would placing those on Warp Talons look weird, or about right? http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NF861SY8TqM/UEXKKCGh3ZI/AAAAAAAAAzc/qcC2GeEptnQ/s1600/P9040881.JPG

Also what's a good approach in terms of army build? I was thinking about getting the Crimson Slaughter box and a few squads to get going, yay/ney?

Any advise would be appreciated

Ps. If this is the wrong place to put this, my bad, im kinda new here

Before turning down other cults, remember conversions and counts as. Just because berserker is officially khorne doesnt mean you cant convert them without the khorne symbols and bunny ears and have them as thousand sons who werent quite able to control themselves or noise marines as thousand sons using psychics to see the future a slight bit o account for their higher initiative or plague marines toughening up their regenerative abilities to account for the +1 toughness.

Cultists ca be done up in a more "scholorly" fashion to be battle book keepers and whatnot as well. There is a host of things you can do and have it all fit your theme through counts as and conversions. I'd say do some more research and settle yourself on a theme YOU like and see what you can fit in to make it effective and fit your fluff.

Yay! Another joins our ranks. Thousand Sons are alone in their rules. There are no Thousand Sons bikers, terminators, or anything, although you can give marks of Tzeentch to other units in the CSM Codex.

The best way I could help you is if you wrote up a list, and I could critique it, but in an overview:

1) Thousand Sons like rhinos. Since they are so expensive, you will not want to let them get picked down by walking in the open. Typical Thousand Sons unit rolls up in a rhino, disembarks, rapid fires, and the then the rhino moves flat out after they have shot to cover them, and pops smoke to try to survive as much as possible. Ahriman helps with this process because he adds additional firepower, makes thousand sons troops, and allows thousand sons to infiltrate forward.

2) Avoid close combat at all costs, unless your opponent wants to avoid close combat at all costs. Melee fights with Thousand Sons tend to never end because of how resistant they are to power weapons and Monstrous Creatures because of their 4++ invuln save. This is a bad thing, because they are much, much too expensive to be a tar pit unit. However, if you run up against a swarm lord and just have no way to deal with it, throw 10 thousand sons at it and with some decent rolls the swarmlord will be locked in combat till turn 5.

3) Positioning is key. Most powerful Psychic powers are template attacks, or short range. Flanking enemies to line up things like doom bolt and chaos breath is both fun and effective, allowing you to vaporize entire units with a single spell. So satisfying. Things like infiltrating, rhinos, and deep strikes are key here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's an example 2000 point army from a pretty experienced Thousand Sons player on DakkaDakka named Brometheus: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/604301.page

Grey Knights make the best Thousand Sons. Just say'n.

SJ

EVIL INC wrote:Before turning down other cults, remember conversions and counts as. Just because berserker is officially khorne doesnt mean you cant convert them without the khorne symbols and bunny ears and have them as thousand sons who werent quite able to control themselves or noise marines as thousand sons using psychics to see the future a slight bit o account for their higher initiative or plague marines toughening up their regenerative abilities to account for the +1 toughness.

Cultists ca be done up in a more "scholorly" fashion to be battle book keepers and whatnot as well. There is a host of things you can do and have it all fit your theme through counts as and conversions. I'd say do some more research and settle yourself on a theme YOU like and see what you can fit in to make it effective and fit your fluff.

Thanks, you raise some interesting points. I do like the idea of scholarly book keepers It would be a fun thing to do if I ended up with a cultist squad or something, charging across the board armed with thick hardbacks and a few pistols. I'm not sure how Bezerkers would work but I see what youre saying .....There is surprisingly little information around as not a huge amount of people seem to be into the Thousand Sons.

changerofways wrote:Yay! Another joins our ranks. Thousand Sons are alone in their rules. There are no Thousand Sons bikers, terminators, or anything, although you can give marks of Tzeentch to other units in the CSM Codex.

The best way I could help you is if you wrote up a list, and I could critique it, but in an overview:

1) Thousand Sons like rhinos. Since they are so expensive, you will not want to let them get picked down by walking in the open. Typical Thousand Sons unit rolls up in a rhino, disembarks, rapid fires, and the then the rhino moves flat out after they have shot to cover them, and pops smoke to try to survive as much as possible. Ahriman helps with this process because he adds additional firepower, makes thousand sons troops, and allows thousand sons to infiltrate forward.

2) Avoid close combat at all costs, unless your opponent wants to avoid close combat at all costs. Melee fights with Thousand Sons tend to never end because of how resistant they are to power weapons and Monstrous Creatures because of their 4++ invuln save. This is a bad thing, because they are much, much too expensive to be a tar pit unit. However, if you run up against a swarm lord and just have no way to deal with it, throw 10 thousand sons at it and with some decent rolls the swarmlord will be locked in combat till turn 5.

3) Positioning is key. Most powerful Psychic powers are template attacks, or short range. Flanking enemies to line up things like doom bolt and chaos breath is both fun and effective, allowing you to vaporize entire units with a single spell. So satisfying. Things like infiltrating, rhinos, and deep strikes are key here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's an example 2000 point army from a pretty experienced Thousand Sons player on DakkaDakka named Brometheus: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/604301.page

Thanks, those are some helpful tips! Its a shame that the Thousand Sons cant seem get much in the way of other units :\ though their play style is one of the reasons I found them interesting.

Thanks for the link too, Brometheus's army has a lot of Daemons in it, how much would you say the thousand sons relies on spawn and other creatures? Or is more of a preference thing....

Also, out of curiosity, I was scouring the net and found a forum on Eternal Crusade where they were discussing Warp Talons. Apparently there is something in the novel Ahriman: Exile that may elude to Thousand Sons have Warp Talons. https://forum.eternalcrusade.com/threads/thousand-sons-raptors-mentioned-anywhere.2115/
There may be slight spoilers to the novel if you haven't read the book, its cool if you don't wanna see the spoiler tags, but I was wondering (As youre a seasoned Thousand Sons player) Would you say there was any truth to that, or is it wishful speculation on their part? I assume slow and purposeful would apply to most of the Tzeench followers..

Use the GK codex for a Thousand Sons army.

Pay attention to the possibilities a Tzeentch Daemons allied detachment opens up, and remember that you've got a lot of vehicles and Daemon Engines you can paint blue.

As mentioned, only 1ksons are 1ksons. Everything else is just MoT versions of whatever you're bringing.

For 1ksons in specific, the thing you've got to remember is that they're expensive, but come with a ton of upgrades. As such, you're more heavily penalized than usual for using them carelessly, but you're rewarded more than usual for using them well. For your first games (with CSM in general, but especially with tzeentch), I'd write down a list of all your special rules and abilities and wargear and make sure to check it at the beginning of your turns, just so that you don't forget to use something when the opportunity arises.

The real trick to them is to know when to break cover because you bring a 4++ with you, and when to go into close combat to use the squad's force weapon and invul save, and when to hang back to bolter stuff. When to risk casualties and rely on fearless, and when to light someone on fire and run away.

In certain situations, 1ksons die just like normal marines. The trick is to not put them into those situations.

As for a tzeentch-themed list in general, their main benefit is that they can stare down board clearing superweapons and guns designed specifically to kill marines better than most. They're especially good against things that pack very damaging weapons that have low rates of fire. They're elite-killers that are relatively immune to elite-killers.

The problems you'll most likely face will be against those non-elite things. A handful of Ap3 bolters may put some hurt on space marines or monstrous creatures or things from other armies' elite slots, but because they're just a handful, they won't thin hordes very quickly. Likewise, if you wind up against a throng of medium-quality vehicles, you may struggle to take them down quickly enough. Also, while you may be better off against anti-elite weapons, as mentioned, you're not much better off against anti-horde weapons, which means you've got to be careful around volume of fire.

If you can learn to fight bread-and-butter units, then the fact that you'll be better than usual against uber-units will really be able to shine.

The reason there is not much info and a whole bunch of "I'm thinking about playing Thousand Sons, how do I build an effective army" threads is that they are ... lets go with ... not great.

Don't get me wrong, I love 'em and I play 'em as my main army, but they have a rather exhaustive list of ... limitations.

They are 23 points per dude with a 58 point sargent that die to boltguns/lasrifles/pulse rifles/wave serpents/[insert ap4 or less torrent weapon of choice here] exactly the same as 13 point marines.

The sarge can only roll on the Tzeentch chart, which is full of fail unless you roll doombolt, though he does have a force weapon (it should always be an axe for the AP2, you've got the 4++ to survive to Init 1 then instakill whatever you're hitting). Unfortunately, you need to cast force the turn before you get assaulted, so you can't cast any other powers (like doombolt) if you want to do so.

They can't overwatch or run due to slow and purposeful. Given that they want to be in rapidfire range, this generally means you need to kill your target in one salvo, or you need to be able to charge after firing as 1 attack means you will get bogged down for ages.

AP3 is great, but when 2+ armour and 4+ (or more) cover saves are a thing, paying that many points per model is not OK. Str 4 on your guns is OK, but the complete inability to hurt a vehicle outside of taking melta bombs on your sarge is not. If you run the numbers, 6 Thousand Sons are worse against every target you care to name (including Marines standing around in the open!) than 10x CSM with 2x Plasma (173 points for the TS vs 170 points for the CSM). That gets even worse when you consider that only 2 marines can shoot out of a rhino, so the plasma squad loses virtually no efficiency while you can only have 2 dudes dakkaing away. You also lose the main other main benefits of your expensive thousand sons since their 4++ doesn't matter in a rhino and fearless doesn't matter either.

To make matters worse, to make them troops, your sorceror must roll at least once on the Tzeentch table, which as we have already mentioned is full of fail. You could take ahriman, but now you're adding a very expensive HQ to very expensive units, and since ahriman has left his spell familiar in the warp and has sworn off casting Div spells, then a generic crimson slaughter sorceror is better in a great many situations.

Brometheus' list is pretty good, and my 1500 list looks very similar, though this is often due to lack of choice I suspect.

You're going to need/want at a minimum;

165 - Level 3 Sorc, Spell Familiar, Sigil of Corruption, Mark of Tzeentch
282 - 9x Thousand Sons, Melta Bombs, Rhino
282 - 9x Thousand Sons, Melta Bombs, Rhino

OK, we're at 729 points and have filled our minimum CAD requirement. We've also taken a pair of rhinos, so apart from giving away an easy 1st blood, we're probably going to need more mech. We also have no AA or AV and minimal AI. Easiest solution to that is a forgefiend while increasing the amount of AV we have.

175 - Forgefiend, Hades Autocannons.

Cool, that's 904 Total now. Unfortunately, he can't hit worth a damn and we also need troops to stay at home, and we're not spending that many points on TSons just for them to camp a rear objective.

95 - Herald of Tzeentch, ML3
99 - 11x Horrors

OK, now we've got precience and some moderately sturdy troops to bunker down on home objectives in cover.

Unfortunately, we're now at 1098 points with Tigurius minus all the cool stuff and no access to div, 2 squads of not as good as plasma marines, a better shooty dread with a cover save and a small squad of guardsmen allies with a cover save and no orders. Marines/IG are paying ~850 points for that.

So where to from here?
-You can get another Forgefiend with Ectoplasma to shore up your 2+ armour weakness.

-You can get another Forgefiend with the Hades in case your first one dies or to keep spamming Str 8 shots at either tanks or infantry.

-You can grab a Heldrake to add some more AA and make the opponent face some poor choices with his infantry (either bunch up in cover to get a save against the TSons but get roasted by the Baleflamer or spread out against the bale flamer and get boltered down by your TSons). Adds nicely to the AI punch you're missing.

-You can grab some more AV with a soul grinder that also gives you some AA and the option for yet another template, even more AP 3 with the battlecannon phlegm or some punchy AV with warp gaze.

-You can grab more anti tank with a d3 shot lascannon and a nice Str5 AP3 torrent flamer (it's like a minidrake!) with the Burning chariot.

-You could grab some screamers for their mobility, flyby attacks and Str 5 Armourbane attack and make a decent bunker for your Herald if you put him on a disk.

-You could grab some spawn for a offensive melee threat or countercharge unit.

-You could grab a possessed vindicator to help out with your 2+ save issues. Works well to keep opponents in cover, which again can force bad choices when you've got a reasonable amount of AP3 flamers available.

- You could run MoT Terminators, though that may require a bit of a story since generally only the strongest TSons psychers got terminator armour (don't ask why ahriman does't appear to have a set) and they don't get any psychic options. Still the combi meltas solve most of your AV issues. Combi plas is also a nice way to mess up 2+ saves.

- You could grab a unit of flamers to deal with hoardes or simply to screen charges. Not many units like eating up to 9d3 hits in overwatch!

- Oblits would solve a lot of problems, and I know many people have converted them to be terminator armed sorcerors flinging spells, but it does leave you open to the question as to why you don't get a deny the witch roll if thast's the case.

As for warp talons, you are getting you the same AP3 you already have oodles of access too, but they're melee only and die to bolters just the same as 13 point marines and have no guns. A heldrake only costs 10 points more than 5 warptalons. Terminators cost 1 point more and come with whatever power weapons you want to model them with and a 2+ save, but termies can also take combi meltas for 5 points. Never, ever take warp talons unless you really like the models (which is fair enough since they are one of the best kits GW has ever sone).

Either way, you've got lots of gaps in your army to fill and never enough points.

That ... turned out longer than I expected it to. Oh well, hope you got some use out of it. Just keep in mind, TSons aren't as bad as many people say they are, but they're a long way from good.

 Ailaros wrote:

In certain situations, 1ksons die just like normal marines. The trick is to not put them into those situations.

They're elite-killers that are relatively immune to elite-killers.

Very nice advice, try to keep them from having to make anything but invuln saves.

As for the elite-killers statement, I couldn't agree more. In games where I play my cards right, I can eliminate everything but my opponents troops without taking a single casualty. Then I start to lose guys as I take massive amounts of small arms fire, and its a race to kill them off before they swarm me.

As for the OPs comment about warp talons in Ahriman: Exile

 changerofways wrote:
the rhino moves flat out after they have shot to cover them, and pops smoke to try to survive as much as possible

Unfortunately, can't do both.

Remember the fluff for chaos has changed over the decades. Read the old Realm of Chaos books and you'll find that "thousand sons" were not always empty walking suits of armor and khorne marines were actually MORE likely to be gifted with heavy weapons than other legions. Units automatically came in the number of the god

My point with that is that you do not need to look at your army/legion so narrowly. In YOUR thousand sons army, it is entirely possible that not all the units are rubrics and you simply do not have to limit yourself in this fashion. You are entirely free to have a wider variety of fluffy units and it be just as fluffy depending on how you convert/model/paint the models. You dont have to go with the latest cookie cutter unit choice.

 koooaei wrote:

 changerofways wrote:
the rhino moves flat out after they have shot to cover them, and pops smoke to try to survive as much as possible

Unfortunately, can't do both.

A rhino cannot disembark its riders in the movement phase, and then use its 6" flat out move in the shooting phase?

EDIT: I'm sorry if I was confusing but I didn't mean the rhino was shooting AND moving flat out in the shooting phase, I meant the 1K sons were shooting

I play a Tzeentch style army and I just love the play style it grants me. With that being said, after trying to use Thousand Sons in games experimenting they almost never made their points back. In other circumstances they never really did enough to warrant the expensive cost even factoring objectives and critical moves they might accomplish.

However I mainly use vanilla cs marines, and cultists for troops now. I use Tzeentch Oblitorators and Terminators as the main elite portion of my army. 2+/4++ units with Endurance from a sorcerer can be very very tough to kill. Bring Ahriman too and roll 3x for invisibility and you have prol one of the nastiest deathstars I've ever fielded. Personally I also run with scrolls of magnus on my sorcerer in terminator armour which grants him extra psycic abilities each turn.

Needless to say that unit is never easy to put down, expensive, but versatile and resilient. They can do everything Thousand Sons can but much better.

 changerofways wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 changerofways wrote:
the rhino moves flat out after they have shot to cover them, and pops smoke to try to survive as much as possible

Unfortunately, can't do both.

A rhino cannot disembark its riders in the movement phase, and then use its 6" flat out move in the shooting phase?

EDIT: I'm sorry if I was confusing but I didn't mean the rhino was shooting AND moving flat out in the shooting phase, I meant the 1K sons were shooting

No, i mean you can't flat-out and pop smoke.

 koooaei wrote:

 changerofways wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 changerofways wrote:
the rhino moves flat out after they have shot to cover them, and pops smoke to try to survive as much as possible

Unfortunately, can't do both.

A rhino cannot disembark its riders in the movement phase, and then use its 6" flat out move in the shooting phase?

EDIT: I'm sorry if I was confusing but I didn't mean the rhino was shooting AND moving flat out in the shooting phase, I meant the 1K sons were shooting

No, i mean you can't flat-out and pop smoke.

Ah! Good to know. Thank you.

I'd second the notion that making a 1kSons themed army doesn't have to entail taking a bunch of rubrics and slapping MoT on things. Just put your fluff hat on and work out that, for instance, those MoN oblits are counts as powerful pyrae that shoot all kinds of flamey what-nots. Bonus points for cool conversions, maybe something aesthetically like transcendent c'tan.
Basically to me, a theme is just fluff/aesthetic, use whatever models you want because the existing 1kSon stuff is pretty meh. Rubrics can be useful but when you come up against an army/list that doesn't really use ap3 to kill marines and doesn't have any 3+/4+ of their own (such as DE) your rubrics are just marines that cost nearly twice as much with a sergeant that costs nearly three times as much. Also, taking the MoT on sorcerer is basically shooting yourself in the foot. Worst... psychic table... ever...

I'd also advise you get Tzeentch Daemons as allies to utilize the Flying Circus.

Are you trying to do a Great Crusade/Heresy era Thousand Sons force or post-Heresy?

Big difference as to how you would organize things/what you would field.

 changerofways wrote:


As for the OPs comment about warp talons in Ahriman: Exile

Spoiler:

They were in the book, but they were attacking Ahriman, not fighting for him. If they were sent by Amon, that means that now they fight for Ahriman because Ahriman took over Amons warband. But they could've been sent by anyone, Ahriman has lots of enemies. Besides, the Rubric of Ahriman turned all non-psykers into automatons, which is not what warp talons are

So what? Ahriman is arguably the Thousand Sons No. 1 archenemy, no? He was in bed with Abaddon too before that (or after the events of the book?)

Whatever the case, "pure" 1KSons isn't the way to go with Ahriman anyhow. He's the one guy the Thousand Sons shoot on sight. He is the guy who has to use whatever and whoever he can get to further his own goals (which tend to infuriate the few guys from the Legion he betrayed, Magnus included).

He's the one "formerly-of-the-Thousand-Sons"-guy you're actually more likely to see running with Plague Marines or Berserkers than another TS-sorcerer, if you wanna do it fluffy.

He's still a good choice on the table though. Just bring him for his rules and use a different model and give him a different name.

Yes, behold, Namirha the Malfeasant! Very nearly as powerful as Ahriman, but he stayed loyal.

Another thing to consider is to perhaps use the Crimson Slaughter codex for your 1ksons army. (don't worry, CS can still be 100% pure Tzeentch and take 1kson units to their heart's content)
However, by going the CS route, you open up the options for;
1. Possessed as Troops and with an overall better random table than the basic CSM versions. MoT CS Possessed are utter ds!

2. Better relic options. CS gives you a nifty sword for building a beatstick Chaos Lord, access to a suit of 2+ armour, the ability to give a Sorcerer the 'Daemon' USR allowing him to use Malefic powers with no added drawbacks, and/or the ability for a Sorcerer to take Divination powers.

3. Still have full access to every single unit from the regular CSM codex, so a pure 1ksons themed army is fully doable.

Also, you can still take for example Ahriman and his kick@$$ Warlord trait.
Speaking of whom, it's also worth setting his powers up as Psy Shriek, (default Primaris power from Telepathy), and then take 2 rolls on Santic Daemonology to fish for Gate of Infinity. Land that power, and you essentially gain a unit that can move to anywhere it wants and then effectively auto-delete any non-vehicle unit in the game. (psy shriek is good on it's own, and Ahriman can pop it off up to 3 times per phase!)
Even if you don't land Gate, Hammerhand is always a solid power, and Sanctuary is filthy-good on MoT units in general. (now Chaos can take 3++ Termies of their own!) And while risky, Cleansing Flame is especially murderous vs. both Tyranid & Chaos Daemon 'flying circus' lists since you get auto-hits.

With Daemonic allies, you really open up a great set of new options, including the ability to make a unit of Possessed or Warp Talons into a rather heinous deathstar unit via the Grimoire of True Names. (enjoy that shiny 2++ save!)

Thanks for all the responses so far, this is all extremely helpful

Drasius wrote:The reason there is not much info and a whole bunch of "I'm thinking about playing Thousand Sons, how do I build an effective army" threads is that they are ... lets go with ... not great.

Don't get me wrong, I love 'em and I play 'em as my main army, but they have a rather exhaustive list of ... limitations.

They are 23 points per dude with a 58 point sargent that die to boltguns/lasrifles/pulse rifles/wave serpents/[insert ap4 or less torrent weapon of choice here] exactly the same as 13 point marines.

The sarge can only roll on the Tzeentch chart, which is full of fail unless you roll doombolt, though he does have a force weapon (it should always be an axe for the AP2, you've got the 4++ to survive to Init 1 then instakill whatever you're hitting). Unfortunately, you need to cast force the turn before you get assaulted, so you can't cast any other powers (like doombolt) if you want to do so.

They can't overwatch or run due to slow and purposeful. Given that they want to be in rapidfire range, this generally means you need to kill your target in one salvo, or you need to be able to charge after firing as 1 attack means you will get bogged down for ages.

AP3 is great, but when 2+ armour and 4+ (or more) cover saves are a thing, paying that many points per model is not OK. Str 4 on your guns is OK, but the complete inability to hurt a vehicle outside of taking melta bombs on your sarge is not. If you run the numbers, 6 Thousand Sons are worse against every target you care to name (including Marines standing around in the open!) than 10x CSM with 2x Plasma (173 points for the TS vs 170 points for the CSM). That gets even worse when you consider that only 2 marines can shoot out of a rhino, so the plasma squad loses virtually no efficiency while you can only have 2 dudes dakkaing away. You also lose the main other main benefits of your expensive thousand sons since their 4++ doesn't matter in a rhino and fearless doesn't matter either.

To make matters worse, to make them troops, your sorceror must roll at least once on the Tzeentch table, which as we have already mentioned is full of fail. You could take ahriman, but now you're adding a very expensive HQ to very expensive units, and since ahriman has left his spell familiar in the warp and has sworn off casting Div spells, then a generic crimson slaughter sorceror is better in a great many situations.

Brometheus' list is pretty good, and my 1500 list looks very similar, though this is often due to lack of choice I suspect.

You're going to need/want at a minimum;

165 - Level 3 Sorc, Spell Familiar, Sigil of Corruption, Mark of Tzeentch
282 - 9x Thousand Sons, Melta Bombs, Rhino
282 - 9x Thousand Sons, Melta Bombs, Rhino

OK, we're at 729 points and have filled our minimum CAD requirement. We've also taken a pair of rhinos, so apart from giving away an easy 1st blood, we're probably going to need more mech. We also have no AA or AV and minimal AI. Easiest solution to that is a forgefiend while increasing the amount of AV we have.

175 - Forgefiend, Hades Autocannons.

Cool, that's 904 Total now. Unfortunately, he can't hit worth a damn and we also need troops to stay at home, and we're not spending that many points on TSons just for them to camp a rear objective.

95 - Herald of Tzeentch, ML3
99 - 11x Horrors

OK, now we've got precience and some moderately sturdy troops to bunker down on home objectives in cover.

Unfortunately, we're now at 1098 points with Tigurius minus all the cool stuff and no access to div, 2 squads of not as good as plasma marines, a better shooty dread with a cover save and a small squad of guardsmen allies with a cover save and no orders. Marines/IG are paying ~850 points for that.

So where to from here?
-You can get another Forgefiend with Ectoplasma to shore up your 2+ armour weakness.

-You can get another Forgefiend with the Hades in case your first one dies or to keep spamming Str 8 shots at either tanks or infantry.

-You can grab a Heldrake to add some more AA and make the opponent face some poor choices with his infantry (either bunch up in cover to get a save against the TSons but get roasted by the Baleflamer or spread out against the bale flamer and get boltered down by your TSons). Adds nicely to the AI punch you're missing.

-You can grab some more AV with a soul grinder that also gives you some AA and the option for yet another template, even more AP 3 with the battlecannon phlegm or some punchy AV with warp gaze.

-You can grab more anti tank with a d3 shot lascannon and a nice Str5 AP3 torrent flamer (it's like a minidrake!) with the Burning chariot.

-You could grab some screamers for their mobility, flyby attacks and Str 5 Armourbane attack and make a decent bunker for your Herald if you put him on a disk.

-You could grab some spawn for a offensive melee threat or countercharge unit.

-You could grab a possessed vindicator to help out with your 2+ save issues. Works well to keep opponents in cover, which again can force bad choices when you've got a reasonable amount of AP3 flamers available.

- You could run MoT Terminators, though that may require a bit of a story since generally only the strongest TSons psychers got terminator armour (don't ask why ahriman does't appear to have a set) and they don't get any psychic options. Still the combi meltas solve most of your AV issues. Combi plas is also a nice way to mess up 2+ saves.

- You could grab a unit of flamers to deal with hoardes or simply to screen charges. Not many units like eating up to 9d3 hits in overwatch!

- Oblits would solve a lot of problems, and I know many people have converted them to be terminator armed sorcerors flinging spells, but it does leave you open to the question as to why you don't get a deny the witch roll if thast's the case.

As for warp talons, you are getting you the same AP3 you already have oodles of access too, but they're melee only and die to bolters just the same as 13 point marines and have no guns. A heldrake only costs 10 points more than 5 warptalons. Terminators cost 1 point more and come with whatever power weapons you want to model them with and a 2+ save, but termies can also take combi meltas for 5 points. Never, ever take warp talons unless you really like the models (which is fair enough since they are one of the best kits GW has ever sone).

Either way, you've got lots of gaps in your army to fill and never enough points.

That ... turned out longer than I expected it to. Oh well, hope you got some use out of it. Just keep in mind, TSons aren't as bad as many people say they are, but they're a long way from good.

Wow thanks for the insight, that's a comprehensive list. Ill certainly refer to this down the track.

Kanluwen wrote:Are you trying to do a Great Crusade/Heresy era Thousand Sons force or post-Heresy?

Big difference as to how you would organize things/what you would field.

Post Heresy for my army, keeping it 40K. From a fluff perspective I find the whole souls in armour thing interesting.

EVIL INC wrote:Remember the fluff for chaos has changed over the decades. Read the old Realm of Chaos books and you'll find that "thousand sons" were not always empty walking suits of armor and khorne marines were actually MORE likely to be gifted with heavy weapons than other legions. Units automatically came in the number of the god

My point with that is that you do not need to look at your army/legion so narrowly. In YOUR thousand sons army, it is entirely possible that not all the units are rubrics and you simply do not have to limit yourself in this fashion. You are entirely free to have a wider variety of fluffy units and it be just as fluffy depending on how you convert/model/paint the models. You don't have to go with the latest cookie cutter unit choice.

I see what your saying. I tend to not want to stray too far from the mould as id like to think of my army as in the 40K universe, being a part of the bigger picture as opposed to something completely off the wall. Of course id still like to have the army be unique and of its own, like any wargamer im sure. That's one of the things I liked about the global campaigns GW used to do. Buuut The Thousand Son's lore is fairly vague so you're right, that does leave some room for wider aesthetic exploration. Id like to have me some Termi's or Warp Talons if I can