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 Psienesis wrote:
Look at blondie up there with the sharp, Aquiline nose.

So you are basing your judgement of their ethnicity on the facial features of a 28mm model? And of course such a nose shape is quite common on north africans. It is a bit strange to claim that models obviously painted to be black people, are not supposed to be black people but dark skinned white people...

 Crimson wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Look at blondie up there with the sharp, Aquiline nose.

So you are basing your judgement of their ethnicity on the facial features of a 28mm model? And of course such a nose shape is quite common on north africans. It is a bit strange to claim that models obviously painted to be black people, are not supposed to be black people but dark skinned white people...

You'll also note that his hair is blonde. North Africans are, generally speaking, not what people mean when they say "black people". Generally, that's a reference to sub-Saharan Blacks, primarily because North Africans tend to be of Caucasian descent (having traveled westward from the Middle East over the last several thousand years).

Sudanese seem pretty black to me...

In any case, your whole conclusion is absurd. Because the Space marine models have certain facial features, does not mean that a space marine painted black is not supposed to be a black person. Do you similarly think that White Scars are not actually supposed to be mongolian-looking, because GW has used the regular SM models to represent them?

Incidentally, half the nation of Sudan is sub-Saharan.

The actual point-of-fact is that GW does not currently intend for the Salamanders to be "Black" in the way we mean. They mean "they're black like Chaos Black paint, and have glowing red eyes."

This is the original fluff. Then an artist mix-up in the era of C:A (hopefully that is not an orkmoticon) brought out the idea that they were intended to be "Black people in space", and the more-recent entries about them have been "no, really, they're not Black, they're just black... like, jet black. Blacker than the blackest black times infinity black. And their eyes are red and glowing. People think they're daemons and gak themselves in fear."

Everyone look through the gallery section of codex SM 6th Ed.

The salamanders librarian (the only unhelmeted salamander in the whole section) is clearly painted as having a dark skin tone but not "Obsidian."

I agree that the original look was far better and I hate the new obsidian look. Also GW just needs to drop some things to make it less erm offensive (particularly the whole "intimidating black skin" thing they keep pushing)

EDIT: to clarify I mean the earlier posted quote about how "scary" the Salamanders apparently look to the denizens of Warhammer 40k. My original post came off as questionable upon re-reading.

 Psienesis wrote:


The actual point-of-fact is that GW does not currently intend for the Salamanders to be "Black" in the way we mean. They mean "they're black like Chaos Black paint, and have glowing red eyes."

Yes, we all agree on that.

This is the original fluff.

This I am not buying, at least not without some pretty hefty citations. They were panted as African black in Rogue Trader, in RT era SM painting guide, and in the C: Armageddon. That's the original design. And if there was some 'they were always supposed to be like that' -explanation after the coal-black-retcon (which I have only seen repeated on the internet forums, but always without a reliable source), then it most likely was just a postfact fabricated justification.

And really GW should not sculpt heads for specific races. Their heads are vague enough that they can be any race and honestly that can not be pulled off without causing some sort of firestorm, especially in America.

 Psienesis wrote:
Incidentally, half the nation of Sudan is sub-Saharan.

The actual point-of-fact is that GW does not currently intend for the Salamanders to be "Black" in the way we mean. They mean "they're black like Chaos Black paint, and have glowing red eyes."

This is the original fluff. Then an artist mix-up in the era of C:A (hopefully that is not an orkmoticon) brought out the idea that they were intended to be "Black people in space", and the more-recent entries about them have been "no, really, they're not Black, they're just black... like, jet black. Blacker than the blackest black times infinity black. And their eyes are red and glowing. People think they're daemons and gak themselves in fear."

Whatever came first, I think GW would probably do better to have the Salamanders be the ethnically black people in space than jet and obsidian black, and I mean this whether it be in artwork or the actual miniature. The latter can almost seem like blackface, whereas the former at least shows some awareness of the existence of other ethnic phenotypes and the Salamanders are hardly a faction being portrayed in a demeaning manner.

 Psienesis wrote:
Blacker than the blackest black times infinity black.

Like Dethklok's coffee?

 Swastakowey wrote:

Spoiler:

This used to be the vision of the Imperial Guard before they decided to stick with Cadians. So much variety.

At the end of the day, its not hard to create diversity yourself. Thats part of the hobby, making the armies your own. Which is probably why most models are white males. It takes minor effort to adding diversity if its important to you.

What I dont like is the lack of cultures displayed now. That was the big thing for guard, a huge merging of millions of cultures which meant different colours, uniforms, guns, worlds and languages etc. But they seem to mostly stick to a select few cultures now and its kinda disappointing.

In short, those pictures depict more of what the guard should look like and while it would be nice for it to be given to us if its something you want its gonna take some fun effort.

Yeah, I remember IG 3.5. There was just so much content.
There were even Mordians. How often to do you see Mordians nowadays?

Then GW decided to "streamline" the codices, and replace all the content with pretty pictures of Cadians / generic soldier dude.

Please people... Ethnicity should not be an issue in a silly tabletop game with plastic figurines of spehss people.

Realistically there should be a huge variety in different skin colours and ethnicities among humans in the 40k universe. The reason why we don't see those in the product line is simply because the product line is limited only to specific forces. The IG product line for example is almost entirely Cadian, and Cadians are described in the fluff as fair-skinned with a creepy purple eyes mutation due to their proximity to the Eye of Terror.
The IG is supposed to be as varied as the worlds of the Imperium, but the GW product line only emphasizes one of those worlds which happens to be inhabited by fair-skinned people.
There is plenty of dark-skinned people in factions described in Black Library novels, but those factions are not part of GW product line.

There should be all kinds of nutty mutations that are still considered "human". Humanity has been in space for tens of millennia, and would have either mutated in that time or been genetically altered by the DAOT polities. Pelagers are just an example of this, colonists genetically altered for survival on oceanic worlds by giving them gills.

A proper, logical depiction of the Imperium would almost be like Star Wars, with incredibly unique but non-heretical mutations being common on some planets, such are people with grey or even blue-ish skin depending on the homeworld.

You know, I'm surprised there aren't "sanctified" mutations. They allow abhumans to exist in the Imperium (albeit with the stigma of being an abhuman), so why not gills / odd skin pigmentation?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Blacker than the blackest black times infinity black.

Like Dethklok's coffee?

Exactly like Duncan Hills Coffee.

Please people... Ethnicity should not be an issue in a silly tabletop game with plastic figurines of spehss people.

Realistically there should be a huge variety in different skin colours and ethnicities among humans in the 40k universe. The reason why we don't see those in the product line is simply because the product line is limited only to specific forces. The IG product line for example is almost entirely Cadian, and Cadians are described in the fluff as fair-skinned with a creepy purple eyes mutation due to their proximity to the Eye of Terror.
The IG is supposed to be as varied as the worlds of the Imperium, but the GW product line only emphasizes one of those worlds which happens to be inhabited by fair-skinned people.
There is plenty of dark-skinned people in factions described in Black Library novels, but those factions are not part of GW product line.

And that is the problem... especially with the Cadian miniatures, because Cadia's conscription rate is 100%, so where are the female Cadian soldiers?

 Psienesis wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Blacker than the blackest black times infinity black.

Like Dethklok's coffee?

Exactly like Duncan Hills Coffee.

Please people... Ethnicity should not be an issue in a silly tabletop game with plastic figurines of spehss people.

Realistically there should be a huge variety in different skin colours and ethnicities among humans in the 40k universe. The reason why we don't see those in the product line is simply because the product line is limited only to specific forces. The IG product line for example is almost entirely Cadian, and Cadians are described in the fluff as fair-skinned with a creepy purple eyes mutation due to their proximity to the Eye of Terror.
The IG is supposed to be as varied as the worlds of the Imperium, but the GW product line only emphasizes one of those worlds which happens to be inhabited by fair-skinned people.
There is plenty of dark-skinned people in factions described in Black Library novels, but those factions are not part of GW product line.

And that is the problem... especially with the Cadian miniatures, because Cadia's conscription rate is 100%, so where are the female Cadian soldiers?

Absent due to production limitations. And by limitations I mean lazy engineers and / or marketers.

 Wyzilla wrote:
There should be all kinds of nutty mutations that are still considered "human". Humanity has been in space for tens of millennia, and would have either mutated in that time or been genetically altered by the DAOT polities. Pelagers are just an example of this, colonists genetically altered for survival on oceanic worlds by giving them gills.

A proper, logical depiction of the Imperium would almost be like Star Wars, with incredibly unique but non-heretical mutations being common on some planets, such are people with grey or even blue-ish skin depending on the homeworld.

There actually is an Imperial planet where all the people have grey skin. I think it's in the Dark Heresy RPG. ...it's practically the "Neutral Planet" from Futurama, lol (yet not as neutral as a planet that shows up in the Black Crusade RPG, where it's so friggin' neutral that chaos lords find it pointless to conquer since no one there CARES)

 Psienesis wrote:
And that is the problem... especially with the Cadian miniatures, because Cadia's conscription rate is 100%, so where are the female Cadian soldiers?

Yeah, there really should be female Cadians. And child soldiers as well if we want a really fluffy Cadian force.
I wish GW would make more diverse IG models.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
And that is the problem... especially with the Cadian miniatures, because Cadia's conscription rate is 100%, so where are the female Cadian soldiers?

Yeah, there really should be female Cadians. And child soldiers as well if we want a really fluffy Cadian force.
I wish GW would make more diverse IG models.

Oh yeah, aren't the white shields something like 12 or 14? I recall them being really young.

Modern codices are "Citadel Miniatures only".
Codex Cadia ( and some Catachans ) isn't going to represent the range of the IoM ever again if GW doesn't return to Illustrations.

Meanwhile, they still offer Tallarns, Vallhallans, Mordians, Steel Legion, Vostroyans ..... direct only ...

Would it hurt so much to show to the people there is more than just Cadians?

 1hadhq wrote:
Modern codices are "Citadel Miniatures only".
Codex Cadia ( and some Catachans ) isn't going to represent the range of the IoM ever again if GW doesn't return to Illustrations.

Meanwhile, they still offer Tallarns, Vallhallans, Mordians, Steel Legion, Vostroyans ..... direct only ...

Would it hurt so much to show to the people there is more than just Cadians?

Apparently, it will hurt the bean counters.
So no Steel Legion. I remember seeing Steel legion on the shelves when I first started Wh40k. Good times.

Psienesis wrote:
And that is the problem... especially with the Cadian miniatures, because Cadia's conscription rate is 100%, so where are the female Cadian soldiers?

Well, they're most likely in the military run procreation, childcare and schooling units that would so obviously have to exist for a planet to have a mandatory conscription rate of 100% among its child-bearing age females and churn out new recruits at the rate they do. I mean, you can't support a mutation-free population if you remove all the ideal aged child-bearing females from the population. So instead, you institutionalize reproduction. I mean, the fluff pretty much suggests it. Total military indoctrination, on a planet where the military runs everything.

After all, in the Cadian fluff sections in C:IG and C:AM use male pronouns overwhelmingly when describing the line soldiers of the Cadian Shock Troops, indicating most of the females go elsewhere, leaving only sterile females to serve in their line units. Every Cadian must know how to fight. Doesn't mean everyone actually does. I mean, the USMC has the phrase "Every Marine a Rifleman." Doesn't mean it deploys the admin personnel at Battalion HQ alongside the infantry. It just means, should they have to, the admin guy should be able to fire his rifle effectively and man a crew served weapon. Such is Cadia.

Grimdark.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
You know, I'm surprised there aren't "sanctified" mutations. They allow abhumans to exist in the Imperium (albeit with the stigma of being an abhuman), so why not gills / odd skin pigmentation?

Pelagers appear to be completely sanctified. I can't find any information about them being persecuted, and any ocean world would obviously need a large, if not entire population of pelagers to work at all given the lack of land.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Psienesis wrote:
And that is the problem... especially with the Cadian miniatures, because Cadia's conscription rate is 100%, so where are the female Cadian soldiers?

Well, they're most likely in the military run procreation, childcare and schooling units that would so obviously have to exist for a planet to have a mandatory conscription rate of 100% among its child-bearing age females and churn out new recruits at the rate they do. I mean, you can't support a mutation-free population if you remove all the ideal aged child-bearing females from the population. So instead, you institutionalize reproduction. I mean, the fluff pretty much suggests it. Total military indoctrination, on a planet where the military runs everything.

After all, in the Cadian fluff sections in C:IG and C:AM use male pronouns overwhelmingly when describing the line soldiers of the Cadian Shock Troops, indicating most of the females go elsewhere, leaving only sterile females to serve in their line units. Every Cadian must know how to fight. Doesn't mean everyone actually does. I mean, the USMC has the phrase "Every Marine a Rifleman." Doesn't mean it deploys the admin personnel at Battalion HQ alongside the infantry. It just means, should they have to, the admin guy should be able to fire his rifle effectively and man a crew served weapon. Such is Cadia.

Grimdark.

We also know for certain that female Cadian soldiers are used as a sanctioned brothel for breeding. Cadian military camps have brothel tents for both parties to relieve stress and reproduce during down-time.

Why would they have "breeding brothels" for both genders? Thats dumb because the women would be useless as soldiers afterwards. In fact, thats completely stupid. They would only have it for the men so that the women can simply continually become pregnant again. Instead of going through the effort of making female soldiers only to impregnate them they would just have male soldiers impregnate the females before they go off on their tour.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Blacker than the blackest black times infinity black.

Like Dethklok's coffee?

Exactly like Duncan Hills Coffee.

Please people... Ethnicity should not be an issue in a silly tabletop game with plastic figurines of spehss people.

Realistically there should be a huge variety in different skin colours and ethnicities among humans in the 40k universe. The reason why we don't see those in the product line is simply because the product line is limited only to specific forces. The IG product line for example is almost entirely Cadian, and Cadians are described in the fluff as fair-skinned with a creepy purple eyes mutation due to their proximity to the Eye of Terror.
The IG is supposed to be as varied as the worlds of the Imperium, but the GW product line only emphasizes one of those worlds which happens to be inhabited by fair-skinned people.
There is plenty of dark-skinned people in factions described in Black Library novels, but those factions are not part of GW product line.

And that is the problem... especially with the Cadian miniatures, because Cadia's conscription rate is 100%, so where are the female Cadian soldiers?

Absent due to production limitations. And by limitations I mean lazy engineers and / or marketers.

Nope. And by limitations I mean that they're (almost) all requisitioned to produce more soldiers for the war effort.
Unless they grow them with the help of the Magos Biologis, like Kriegers?

 Talon of Anathrax wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Blacker than the blackest black times infinity black.

Like Dethklok's coffee?

Exactly like Duncan Hills Coffee.

Please people... Ethnicity should not be an issue in a silly tabletop game with plastic figurines of spehss people.

Realistically there should be a huge variety in different skin colours and ethnicities among humans in the 40k universe. The reason why we don't see those in the product line is simply because the product line is limited only to specific forces. The IG product line for example is almost entirely Cadian, and Cadians are described in the fluff as fair-skinned with a creepy purple eyes mutation due to their proximity to the Eye of Terror.
The IG is supposed to be as varied as the worlds of the Imperium, but the GW product line only emphasizes one of those worlds which happens to be inhabited by fair-skinned people.
There is plenty of dark-skinned people in factions described in Black Library novels, but those factions are not part of GW product line.

And that is the problem... especially with the Cadian miniatures, because Cadia's conscription rate is 100%, so where are the female Cadian soldiers?

Absent due to production limitations. And by limitations I mean lazy engineers and / or marketers.

Nope. And by limitations I mean that they're (almost) all requisitioned to produce more soldiers for the war effort.
Unless they grow them with the help of the Magos Biologis, like Kriegers?

I was referring to the miniatures.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Why would they have "breeding brothels" for both genders? Thats dumb because the women would be useless as soldiers afterwards. In fact, thats completely stupid. They would only have it for the men so that the women can simply continually become pregnant again. Instead of going through the effort of making female soldiers only to impregnate them they would just have male soldiers impregnate the females before they go off on their tour.

I meant that it wasn't forced at gunpoint like the camps the Japanese had in WWII, both genders enjoy the process.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Why would they have "breeding brothels" for both genders? Thats dumb because the women would be useless as soldiers afterwards. In fact, thats completely stupid. They would only have it for the men so that the women can simply continually become pregnant again. Instead of going through the effort of making female soldiers only to impregnate them they would just have male soldiers impregnate the females before they go off on their tour.

I meant that it wasn't forced at gunpoint like the camps the Japanese had in WWII, both genders enjoy the process.

The camps in Japan had korean women who were usually raped until death but I see

But yea so they have brothels but I thought you meant they had breeding camps...

Citation required for all of the Cadian women being the Joy Division.

Conjecture through semi-feasible logic with a ruthlessly patriarchical slant.