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I saw that somebody had posted a question about the existence of units that are able to assault after deep striking. This got me thinking to the good-ol-days of Vanguard assault Marines with power weapons, which at the time, ignored all armor. Mega Noobs where worthless

So this is the question I am posing, how would each army having one unit that was capable of assaulting out of deepstrike affect the current Meta of the game, would it make it worse better? Would it make certain armies OP while making others UP? In generally what would it do to the game?

I, for one, am completely for it. I do not think it would completely change the game but give some less mobile, less shoty, armies the capability to deal with certain armies, cough tauEldar, cough.

It would be very imbalanced.

Armies like the Eldar Mech or Tau that can't handle being assaulted would auto lose to any army with three choices of that unit, where other armies that don't mind so much would just see it as another drop pod melta equivalent.

In an edition where vehicles are paper thin in assault, any improvement to assault will annihilate vehicles.


At the time when power weapons did not suck, vehicles were not that easy to hit and were not hit on rear armor at all times, making assault out of any transport and or deep strike not so bad.

I think it would work as long as you couldn't assault out of Drop Pods or deep striking vehicles.

Until recently Blood Angels could Deep Strike Land Raiders and it was pretty meh.

If you take into account rolling for reserves, scatter, deepstrike mishap, random charge distance, and overwatch. The Deepstrike Assault Squad would be a risky and expensive solution.

Also Eldar and Tau are really OP right now and could use a hard counter like most other armies have.

Need assaulting deepstriking daemons summons for CSM back in 5th ed. Bring back daemon bomb.

 J3f wrote:

Also Eldar and Tau are really OP right now and could use a hard counter like most other armies have.

Yes, because every army has a hard counter to Gravstar, Screamerstar, Necrons and Imperial Knights. obviously.

If Sisters can do it, surely your armies can too, morgoth. :p

There is currently one unit that can still assault from deep strike, although it is prevented from doing so via a glitch. If you ignore the glitch that prevents it happening, it's still not that powerful or broken...

Then again, that unit is Stormtroopers.

I don't know, if you'd expect anything to be able to assault out of Deep Strike lorewise Deathwing are pretty high up on the list, might make them work better if you're not playing go-for-broke all-Terminators.

Not really, Deathwing just got teleported, they need a moment to get their bearings and recover from their brief jaunt through the Warp.

Things that should be able to assault after deep striking are things like Assault Marines leaping out of Thunderhawks and Lictors revealing themselves from hiding.

I can't wait for someone to drop in near my coteaz grav star for an assault.

I think all the randomness of having to land close enough to make a charge, but not mishap, as well as not know when the squad will come into the game, means deep strike assaults aren't all that.

Now that new stormraven formation, assuming that drop pods work with it, is quite powerful because it nullifies almost all of the randomness.

 Crazyterran wrote:
I can't wait for someone to drop in near my coteaz grav star for an assault.

ike what? 100 plague zombies?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Not really, Deathwing just got teleported, they need a moment to get their bearings and recover from their brief jaunt through the Warp.

Things that should be able to assault after deep striking are things like Assault Marines leaping out of Thunderhawks and Lictors revealing themselves from hiding.

Actually if you've ever played the Dawn of War video games, you can teleport Terminators right in the middle of an enemy squad, there's a repulsive blast (Hammer of Wrath?) and they start fighting back immediately. That's what I want to do on the Table Top, Launch Terminators right into combat.

The new Blood Angels Formation is crazy powerful. Not auto-win because of the points cost of 3 stormravens and 3 tac squads. But in 2000 pts your opponent could have 3 Death Company units in their face turn 1! You can kiss your 3 best units goodbye! If you spread them out though (when on the receiving end) only 1 of said units would disappear. The formation forces the deep strikers to arrive close together.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Not really, Deathwing just got teleported, they need a moment to get their bearings and recover from their brief jaunt through the Warp.

Things that should be able to assault after deep striking are things like Assault Marines leaping out of Thunderhawks and Lictors revealing themselves from hiding.

Actually, the whole fluff of the Deathwing is that they're so good at teleporting that they're fighting the second they arrive. They get twin-linked the turn they deep strike, to show that "The Deathwing appear in a blazing hail of gunfire, as if they had begun firing while en route".

In terms of the gameplay itself, this could make deathwing devastating. Keep in mind that I get to bring them all in guaranteed on either turn 1 or turn 2, my choice. If we're only playing with a 24" gap between our armies, I'll scout my bikes forward, drop my termies 6" from you without scattering, do my twin linked shooting, and have a high chance of getting into close combat. Yeah, I think it'd be a pretty big deal.

There's a difference between blazing away and assaulting though. Assaulting requires momentum you don't have when appearing in a teleport, momentum you don't need to set your feet and blast whatever blurs are moving.

There is also the whole do-what-you-want-i-kill-you-anyways aspect it adds to the game. Shooting might be too much of the game now, but with this change, shooting/movement would be nearly irrelevant.

I had posted an idea about scattering into another unit allowing them to attempt movement per Tank Shock, or get locked in combat. Something like that that can happen, but is unlikely, could be awesome, but just straight out assaulting out of deepstrike nullifies too much of the game

Bharring wrote:
There is also the whole do-what-you-want-i-kill-you-anyways aspect it adds to the game. Shooting might be too much of the game now, but with this change, shooting/movement would be nearly irrelevant.

I had posted an idea about scattering into another unit allowing them to attempt movement per Tank Shock, or get locked in combat. Something like that that can happen, but is unlikely, could be awesome, but just straight out assaulting out of deepstrike nullifies too much of the game

I don't feel like it was "too much" in the older edition. Vangaurd space marines for example could do it but were really expensive and usually bit the dust after killing one unit in the assault. I am just talking about having one price-matched unit that can do it. I feel the high cost and risk will keep them from being spammed.

 Kavish wrote:
The new Blood Angels Formation is crazy powerful. Not auto-win because of the points cost of 3 stormravens and 3 tac squads. But in 2000 pts your opponent could have 3 Death Company units in their face turn 1! You can kiss your 3 best units goodbye! If you spread them out though (when on the receiving end) only 1 of said units would disappear. The formation forces the deep strikers to arrive close together.

turn 2

 koooaei wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
The new Blood Angels Formation is crazy powerful. Not auto-win because of the points cost of 3 stormravens and 3 tac squads. But in 2000 pts your opponent could have 3 Death Company units in their face turn 1! You can kiss your 3 best units goodbye! If you spread them out though (when on the receiving end) only 1 of said units would disappear. The formation forces the deep strikers to arrive close together.

turn 2

And after 1 turn of shooting Tau and Eldar could easily remove 2 tactical squads making assaulting from deep strike null and void. I do think it should be brought back but only from Drop Pods

if you could assault instead of shooting, it'd work.

lets face it, the armies that would suffer for it are the armies that most need nerfing.

it'd also work if vehicles went back to the way they were before hull points - hard to kill, easy to affect, and that battle cannon shell that just punched through the hull would have a chance of a massive explosion. assault with mass S4? you need to hit, followed by 6's to glance, then a 6 to wreck. on average that takes twice as many attacks compared with current methods. allow assaulting from stationary vehicles and some units from reserves and it'll all balance out.

oh wait, that was 5th.

You wouldn't be able to rely on your big scary shooty unit never getting charged because it has several turns to kill things before they get to it, you'd have to plan on some of your stuff getting charged and have counterassault to deal with it. Tau would be the only army that would really suffer instead of just adjusting their battle plan.

morgoth wrote:
It would be very imbalanced.

Armies like the Eldar Mech or Tau that can't handle being assaulted would auto lose to any army with three choices of that unit, where other armies that don't mind so much would just see it as another drop pod melta equivalent.

In an edition where vehicles are paper thin in assault, any improvement to assault will annihilate vehicles.


At the time when power weapons did not suck, vehicles were not that easy to hit and were not hit on rear armor at all times, making assault out of any transport and or deep strike not so bad.

It would be more balanced in this edition than it was in 5th actually. Scatter, interceptor, random charge distance, and overwatch all work to mitigate the effectiveness of assaulting from deepstrike. Regardless, there are some shooting units that can be absolutely devastating when arriving via deep strike, so how would assaulting be any more devastating?

 Orblivion wrote:
Regardless, there are some shooting units that can be absolutely devastating when arriving via deep strike, so how would assaulting be any more devastating?

Because shooting and assault are completely different beasts. Shooting at best is "deal damage to one unit" which isn't any different from a shooting unit that was already deployed on the table. Devastating damage that comes from deep striking is from specific instances (such as melta vs a vehicle) and is not unique to deep striking.

But assault vastly more powerful because it entails so much more. With assault you...
- Attack the unit each player turn
- Lock the enemy down preventing it from moving or shooting
- Make yourself untargetable to shooting
- Can wipe out whole units with very little damage (via sweeping advance)
- Can do all of this to multiple units at once with multicharging

That is way more then shooting can do. But the trade off is that assaulting is hard to do because you have to reach them, slugging through turns of the safe and reliable damage of shooting. Its high risk with high reward. The problem with assaulting out of reserves/deep strike is that it removes all the risk of assault but lets you retain all the massive power it has. Because over then Tau, who is going to have interceptor/overwatch strong enough to actually pose a threat to a deep striking unit?

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
Regardless, there are some shooting units that can be absolutely devastating when arriving via deep strike, so how would assaulting be any more devastating?

Because shooting and assault are completely different beasts. Shooting at best is "deal damage to one unit" which isn't any different from a shooting unit that was already deployed on the table. Devastating damage that comes from deep striking is from specific instances (such as melta vs a vehicle) and is not unique to deep striking.

But assault vastly more powerful because it entails so much more. With assault you...
- Attack the unit each player turn
- Lock the enemy down preventing it from moving or shooting
- Make yourself untargetable to shooting
- Can wipe out whole units with very little damage (via sweeping advance)
- Can do all of this to multiple units at once with multicharging

That is way more then shooting can do. But the trade off is that assaulting is hard to do because you have to reach them, slugging through turns of the safe and reliable damage of shooting. Its high risk with high reward. The problem with assaulting out of reserves/deep strike is that it removes all the risk of assault but lets you retain all the massive power it has. Because over then Tau, who is going to have interceptor/overwatch strong enough to actually pose a threat to a deep striking unit?

Yeah a FarSight bomb with plasma guns and fusion blasters deepStriking with no scatter and incresed BS from marker drones is pretty weak.......He said sarcastically

 Mojo1jojo wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
Regardless, there are some shooting units that can be absolutely devastating when arriving via deep strike, so how would assaulting be any more devastating?

Because shooting and assault are completely different beasts. Shooting at best is "deal damage to one unit" which isn't any different from a shooting unit that was already deployed on the table. Devastating damage that comes from deep striking is from specific instances (such as melta vs a vehicle) and is not unique to deep striking.

But assault vastly more powerful because it entails so much more. With assault you...
- Attack the unit each player turn
- Lock the enemy down preventing it from moving or shooting
- Make yourself untargetable to shooting
- Can wipe out whole units with very little damage (via sweeping advance)
- Can do all of this to multiple units at once with multicharging

That is way more then shooting can do. But the trade off is that assaulting is hard to do because you have to reach them, slugging through turns of the safe and reliable damage of shooting. Its high risk with high reward. The problem with assaulting out of reserves/deep strike is that it removes all the risk of assault but lets you retain all the massive power it has. Because over then Tau, who is going to have interceptor/overwatch strong enough to actually pose a threat to a deep striking unit?

Yeah a FarSight bomb with plasma guns and fusion blasters deepStriking with no scatter and incresed BS from marker drones is pretty weak.......He said sarcastically

That's not what he was trying to imply at all, more that assault troops of any kind get to deal more damage quickly if in assault ever turn than dedicated shooting units because they get to attack in every player turn. You've read Tau and then none of the sentence afterwards.

This was something that made me love Zagstruk before the new codex came out, granting Stormboyz the ability to assault out of Deep Strike. I'm still pretty annoyed they took it away from him. I suppose Orks don't get to be a special snowflake in that aspect. It fit the fluff of Orks, and game wise it helped make it so our really frail Stormboyz at least got to combat and not get pasted. Now, there is NO reason to Deep Strike them anymore.

I was hoping that would return via the Stormboy formation, but sadly it did not.

I really don't think it would break the game. I find it funny how it's OK to be able to unload all your guns out of Deep Strike, but you can't assault. You should have the option to begin with. No shooting and charge, or shoot but no assault afterwards. The risk vs reward for it is pretty damn high (except Drop Pods as they can't really mishap if on board). I like the clause that you can't assault out of a Deep Striking vehicle.

The argument that it shuts down Tau or Eldar is foolish. So there is something in the game they can't do/bring to the table. That's the nature of the game, and something they need to be prepared for. Shutting down gunlines =/= imbalance I mean, I get that assault IS strong. But shooting is still proving to be king this edition. Allowing easier assault for select units is fair enough. Besides, the trade off is bringing so many means your ill prepared in other areas too. You still have to balance your list.

 Orblivion wrote:

morgoth wrote:
It would be very imbalanced.

Armies like the Eldar Mech or Tau that can't handle being assaulted would auto lose to any army with three choices of that unit, where other armies that don't mind so much would just see it as another drop pod melta equivalent.

In an edition where vehicles are paper thin in assault, any improvement to assault will annihilate vehicles.


At the time when power weapons did not suck, vehicles were not that easy to hit and were not hit on rear armor at all times, making assault out of any transport and or deep strike not so bad.

It would be more balanced in this edition than it was in 5th actually. Scatter, interceptor, random charge distance, and overwatch all work to mitigate the effectiveness of assaulting from deepstrike. Regardless, there are some shooting units that can be absolutely devastating when arriving via deep strike, so how would assaulting be any more devastating?

As I pointed out, vehicles are extremely weak to assault right now, making any kind of assault from deep strike almost free points, rendering any vehicles and assault incapable armies pointless.

In fifth, vehicles weren't paper to assault, that is a huge difference.

It would definitely be a lot worse than the current balance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melevolence wrote:

The argument that it shuts down Tau or Eldar is foolish. So there is something in the game they can't do/bring to the table. That's the nature of the game, and something they need to be prepared for. Shutting down gunlines =/= imbalance I mean, I get that assault IS strong. But shooting is still proving to be king this edition. Allowing easier assault for select units is fair enough. Besides, the trade off is bringing so many means your ill prepared in other areas too. You still have to balance your list.

It seems foolish to you because you don't really understand the balance of this game.

As it is, Eldar are damn good, but they're on par with at least four other armies and in the vast majority of match ups, both armies have more than 40% chance to win.

If you allow assault out of deep strike, that means wrecking Wave Serpents is a piece of cake, and since the Eldar have zero good assault units, you auto win.

The best thing they have is Wraith Knights, which can at most deal 3.5 wounds the turn they charge, and 2 wounds each subsequent fight round.

Basically, you could just Deep Strike Tacticals everywhere, charge everywhere and call it a day, the Eldar have nothing that can handle that in all of their almighty arsenal, even their assault units are worse than CCW tacticals while being more expensive.

Tau ? They would be forced to have ridiculous amounts of intercept and that would still not save them, because shooting units are designed to whittle down an equivalent force over the course of three to four turns more or less, with cover and LoS blocking playing major roles, mitigating factors that do not exist for assault, which is pure raw damage and generally has at least triple the damage output on multiple round CC, and potentially way more on single round CC.



The reality of the game is that assault is incredibly powerful, and probably reducing the DMZ and board size by four inches would be enough to make assault dominating.

The only thing preventing assault from being all of the game is that you have to spend one to two turns just getting there, and assaulting out of Deep Strike would break that.

If the game were balanced with assault out of Deep Strike, said assault capability would be very expensive OR every other assault unit would be useless, as is pretty much the case of anything that doesn't move 12" right now.

I do think being able to assault after coming in normally or on the outflank would be a good thing for the game. I would also agree that being able to assault after deep strike should be incredibly rare if non-existent.

maybe if you forego shooting and count as moving through (or difficult) terrain...
but i would say with would be broken if you can charge from vehicles... but it may give armies like Tau and eldar a run for their money while more assault armies (CSM) could be more competitive

maybe add an initiative test as they are running as their boot hit the ground so they might not have time to anything crazy like kink, cover or assault grenades, and maybe not being available to those models with bulky (terminators)... just thoughts... but it would be good for my CSM to pop out and run..
risk and reward...

Allow assault out of Deep Strike and Demons would win all the things... Let's do it