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Martel732 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe I'm spoiled a bit by BA in that I can fly around the board and mop up stray squads. But mobile shooting lists can do the same thing. I don't understand at all how these 5 man drop squad survive the withering firepower of 6/7 th ed.

Not everyone plays against wave spam... seriously
Or heavy Tau.

Those are not the only mobile firepower lists. Tactical squads shoot back so poorly that tac heavy lists are absorbing insane amounts of fire over the course of the game. IG, GK, and even Orks have been known to shoot quite a bit as well.

And how well do those lists tend to take fire back?

IG wont be in cover all the time.

GK loosing a few models to a melta or plasma here or there tend to be devastating considering there points costs.
Orks have gak armor.

Of which non of these have interceptor so its not like they are retaliating from the get go.

And of which if they are hugging cover they will ether GTG or get stuck with a 4+ which is hardly that powerful.

not to mention ALL of the follow up shooting from the rest of your army.

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe I'm spoiled a bit by BA in that I can fly around the board and mop up stray squads. But mobile shooting lists can do the same thing. I don't understand at all how these 5 man drop squad survive the withering firepower of 6/7 th ed.

Not everyone plays against wave spam... seriously
Or heavy Tau.

Those are not the only mobile firepower lists. Tactical squads shoot back so poorly that tac heavy lists are absorbing insane amounts of fire over the course of the game. IG, GK, and even Orks have been known to shoot quite a bit as well.

And how well do those lists tend to take fire back?

IG wont be in cover all the time.

GK loosing a few models to a melta or plasma here or there tend to be devastating considering there points costs.
Orks have gak armor.

Of which non of these have interceptor so its not like they are retaliating from the get go.

And of which if they are hugging cover they will ether GTG or get stuck with a 4+ which is hardly that powerful.

not to mention ALL of the follow up shooting from the rest of your army.

Every tac squad you field cripples the fire coming back from your list, which was already crippled by having meqs instead of cheaper base units. A guardsmen with a plasma gun is so much more efficient than a marine because in both cases, they are just life support systems for a plasma gun. The guardsmen is actually a better shot, because he can be twinlinked by orders. Marines have so such synergy available. Marines' lack of initial body count caps the damage they can possibly cause in a single turn by itself. Now adding marines that essentially aren't doing anything just magnifies this problem of having a low dakka ceiling.

Martel732 wrote:


Every tac squad you field cripples the fire coming back from your list, which was already crippled by having meqs instead of cheaper base units. A guardsmen with a plasma gun is so much more efficient than a marine because in both cases, they are just life support systems for a plasma gun. The guardsmen is actually a better shot, because he can be twinlinked by orders. Marines have so such synergy available. Marines' lack of initial body count caps the damage they can possibly cause in a single turn by itself. Now adding marines that essentially aren't doing anything just magnifies this problem of having a low dakka ceiling.

a Guardsman cant be twinlinked by orders..... the feth book are you using?

second why on earth would you be droppoding next to a plasma gun....

If you're looking for something to hold its own against Serpent Spam, good luck. Its mostly agreed upon that its OP. So nothing measures up if that's your measuring stick.

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


Every tac squad you field cripples the fire coming back from your list, which was already crippled by having meqs instead of cheaper base units. A guardsmen with a plasma gun is so much more efficient than a marine because in both cases, they are just life support systems for a plasma gun. The guardsmen is actually a better shot, because he can be twinlinked by orders. Marines have so such synergy available. Marines' lack of initial body count caps the damage they can possibly cause in a single turn by itself. Now adding marines that essentially aren't doing anything just magnifies this problem of having a low dakka ceiling.

a Guardsman cant be twinlinked by orders..... the feth book are you using?

second why on earth would you be droppoding next to a plasma gun....

I trusted the IG guy because I didn't have time to read his entire codex. Drop pod lists have their own problems. One such problem is when you can't drop in anywhere safe. And the problem that you are footslogging once you do drop. But what I said about marines is not a specific thing, its a general thing. Marines have fewer bodies, which means their maximum firepower is more limited than lists with more bodies. And in tactical squads, and that max firepower drops a lot further.

Martel732 wrote:
I trusted the IG guy because I didn't have time to read his entire codex. Drop pod lists have their own problems. One such problem is when you can't drop in anywhere safe. And the problem that you are footslogging once you do drop. But what I said about marines is not a specific thing, its a general thing. Marines have fewer bodies, which means their maximum firepower is more limited than lists with more bodies. And in tactical squads, and that max firepower drops a lot further.

well you trusted the wrong IG guy as there is no way to get Twinlinked in regular IG

Unless the opponent literally list tailored against you. then sure but if some one spent points to literally put plasma guns on ALL of there units in every corner of the map then you are already winning as ethere they just spent at least 2 units worth of points to do it.

You in reality should have zero issues putting a pod in the right spot to do the right job.

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I trusted the IG guy because I didn't have time to read his entire codex. Drop pod lists have their own problems. One such problem is when you can't drop in anywhere safe. And the problem that you are footslogging once you do drop. But what I said about marines is not a specific thing, its a general thing. Marines have fewer bodies, which means their maximum firepower is more limited than lists with more bodies. And in tactical squads, and that max firepower drops a lot further.

well you trusted the wrong IG guy as there is no way to get Twinlinked in regular IG

Unless the opponent literally list tailored against you. then sure but if some one spent points to literally put plasma guns on ALL of there units in every corner of the map then you are already winning as ethere they just spent at least 2 units worth of points to do it.

You in reality should have zero issues putting a pod in the right spot to do the right job.

my

My issue is that there is no "right job" for tacticals. And you never addressed my point about marine firepower.

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I trusted the IG guy because I didn't have time to read his entire codex. Drop pod lists have their own problems. One such problem is when you can't drop in anywhere safe. And the problem that you are footslogging once you do drop. But what I said about marines is not a specific thing, its a general thing. Marines have fewer bodies, which means their maximum firepower is more limited than lists with more bodies. And in tactical squads, and that max firepower drops a lot further.

well you trusted the wrong IG guy as there is no way to get Twinlinked in regular IG

Not specifically, but Primaris Psykers can use Prescience easily enough.

But back on topic, no I do not see Tacticals as a tax in anything other than the smallest games. As mentioned, they won't match up against WS spam well (hint: Nothing does, that's why it's considered OP and exploited) but against 90% of the other lists out there they are decent units. The real strength of them is that they can contribute something in every phase of the game, and while I appreciate that 40k often rewards specialists over generalists, one cannot do to underestimate the usefulness of this truly 'tactical' unit.

Movement Phase:
- Some of the best cost-to-utility transports in the game in Pods or Rhinos. 35 points for either getting anywhere I want on the board T1 (and having AV12 ObSec on that point) with minimal risk of scattering, or for a transport that can provide more ObSec, carry essentially two squads and doesn't lose all that much by flat-outting in the early game to get to any point you want within the first couple of turns is a steal. It can provide mobile LoS blocking, and even when Wrecked it'll still give you a 5+ cover save.

- Being able to split units at deployment is a great bonus, as you can potentially double your threat overload and ObSec ability, give the oppoent twice as many targets and not have to sacrifice your Heavy Weapon to remain mobile. Similarly, if you are that worried about being blown off the board, surely losing a maximum of 5 Marines is better than 10?

Shooting Phase:
- Tacticals may not boast a huge amount of firepower compared to Elite units, but ultimately they shouldn't; they are line troops, not uber-killing-machines. Taking a special and a Combi gives you a good output against your desired target, and at close range you're adding a few Bolter shots and a Krak Grenade which can't hurt. Add in the fact you have a BS4 5-wound Lascannon or Plasma Cannon hiding in the back if that's your style, which is free to support that Combat Squad or pick a different target entirely.

Assault Phase:
- Tactical Marines are not just shooters, as much as that may seem their role. They pay for S/T that is above most of the game, and against most shooty units you can easily win a fight with charging Tacticals. It's always better to charge than be charged (unless it's Space Wolves), so whipping out your bolt Pistols for a quick salvo and then getting stuck in should be something you proactively do. Obviously, you should avoid dedicated CC units, but that's what you bring High-power shooters or bricks like TH/SS Termies to deal with.

- Similarly, Tacticals are far better equipped than most line troops to deal with vehicles. Half a dozen Krak Grenades and maybe Melta Bombs will put the hurt on most non-LR.


In summary, they are not point-and-click units, and naturally, if you're not getting the most from the stats you pay for then they're going to appear poor, but 10 Tacticals, with matched Special/Heavy/Combi in a Pod or Rhino is a great, versatile and worthwhile unit, and a staple of the codex. They're not winning you any games on their own, but they aren't meant to, and in theory, no unit ever should.

Martel732 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I trusted the IG guy because I didn't have time to read his entire codex. Drop pod lists have their own problems. One such problem is when you can't drop in anywhere safe. And the problem that you are footslogging once you do drop. But what I said about marines is not a specific thing, its a general thing. Marines have fewer bodies, which means their maximum firepower is more limited than lists with more bodies. And in tactical squads, and that max firepower drops a lot further.

well you trusted the wrong IG guy as there is no way to get Twinlinked in regular IG

Unless the opponent literally list tailored against you. then sure but if some one spent points to literally put plasma guns on ALL of there units in every corner of the map then you are already winning as ethere they just spent at least 2 units worth of points to do it.

You in reality should have zero issues putting a pod in the right spot to do the right job.

my

My issue is that there is no "right job" for tacticals. And you never addressed my point about marine firepower.

Its fine that there maximum firepower is limited

are you expecting them to remove enitre units in droves?

At best they should be killing a few like 3-4 guardsmen at best which is 1 going to cause moral and two should be enough to take out a misplaced heavy weapon or special.

at best you take them for a combi + 1 special weapon to take care of a VERY specific target like a vehicle or elite unit sitting out some where with plasmas

you could also go nuts and take some flamer ones to torch guardsman out of cover.

Bolt guns have issues but they where never supposed to be fantastic or wave serpent or tesla level BS.

I don't find them decent when I play against them. I find it incredibly unlikely that every marine foe I ever took on just didn't know how to use them. They are a mathematical non-sequitur.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't find them decent when I play against them. I find it incredibly unlikely that every marine foe I ever took on just didn't know how to use them. They are a mathematical non-sequitur.

Well il match your anecdotal evidence with my anecdotal in which iv taken out plenty with pod drops. Naturally with actual support such as Ironclads and other units that actually move up instead of camping.
That and i dont play against nothing but spam lists. so there is that.

I don't expect them to remove units, but I do expect them to do *something*, which all too often they fail at.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't expect them to remove units, but I do expect them to do *something*, which all too often they fail at.

Then you must have the most unlucky area for marines as they do plenty.

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't find them decent when I play against them. I find it incredibly unlikely that every marine foe I ever took on just didn't know how to use them. They are a mathematical non-sequitur.

Well il match your anecdotal evidence with my anecdotal in which iv taken out plenty with pod drops. Naturally with actual support such as Ironclads and other units that actually move up instead of camping.
That and i dont play against nothing but spam lists. so there is that.

Forgive me if I don't respect your podding tacticals after going up against SW pod lists. Because I don't. Adding ironclads doesn't make tacs good. In fact you could have had more ironclads if you dump the tacs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't expect them to remove units, but I do expect them to do *something*, which all too often they fail at.

Then you must have the most unlucky area for marines as they do plenty.

The 5th ed BA codex was by far the worst list in 6th and 7th ed and even with that dumpster fire of a codex tactical marines have never been a problem.

Martel732 wrote:
Forgive me if I don't respect your podding tacticals after going up against SW pod lists. Because I don't. Adding ironclads doesn't make tacs good. In fact you could have had more ironclads if you dump the tacs.
The 5th ed BA codex was by far the worst list in 6th and 7th ed and even with that dumpster fire of a codex tactical marines have never been a problem.

Quite frankly i wasnt expecting any less from ya.


Im not sure what you are trying to say in the second quote.
are you saying your dumpster fire BA Tac marines are able to deal with tac marines?
or are you saying the dumpster fire BA tac marines are easy to be dealt with?

Lol. Do you think I used any tac marines with the 5th ed codex? I was winning because my opponents were using tac marines. They were crippling their own lists.

Martel732 wrote:
Lol. Do you think I used any tac marines with the 5th ed codex?

Then what did you use?

For troops? Meched up asm with an occasional jumper asm squad. Tacs couldn't bring enough heat before running them over with asm. Of course once they started using gravstar, bikers and smashbane I was hosed.

Martel732 wrote:
For troops? Meched up asm with an occasional jumper asm squad. Tacs couldn't bring enough heat before running them over with asm. Of course once they started using gravstar, bikers and smashbane I was hosed.

Well the last point sounds about right.

Iv never had issues with mass rhino chassis though it was never the tactical jobs to deal with it 100% only the ones with melta guns.

anyway it seems we will fundamentally disagree so lets agree to disagree.

By the time you can fire melta, my ba are overrunning your tac marines. That's way way too late. If you pod up i can bubblewrap with jumpers.

You can play the agree to disagree card but you are essentially conceding that tac marines were helpless against the worst codex in the game.

Unless Blood Angels had their bolters replaced with Nerf Guns it's not like they can't win.

Worst codex at the time. BA might still be the worst for all i know, but its better than it was.

Martel732 wrote:
By the time you can fire melta, my ba are overrunning your tac marines. That's way way too late. If you pod up i can bubblewrap with jumpers.

You can play the agree to disagree card but you are essentially conceding that tac marines were helpless against the worst codex in the game.

The melta ones are in Drop pods

The plasma ones are in Rhinos

If you are sitting there bubblewraping your rhino/razors then thats fine. i can send in the ironclads or other units first to force them off it. or just shoot rear armor at st8.

Ether way i aint conceding.

They have there uses and they are actually able to kill things which you are completely denying left and right.

And besides from anecdotal evidence there will be no way to prove ether of our points as there are far to many variables to consider such as actual lay out of table, how much terrain, are they LOS blocking terrain, was the lists tailored, points limited and the likes.

Killing a single ba here or there does not count as killing anything meaningful. Not when the tacs are being wiped out in mass in hth.

Once marines got the ability to kill my whole list with grav before i can close it all changed. Tacs are not part of that problem. Its all tiggy and grav cents.

I dont have to wait long for the pods to arrive. Once they do, all your melta is one shot and then dead. Not real scary. And I never list tailor.

Martel732 wrote:
Killing a single ba here or there does not count as killing anything meaningful. Not when the tacs are being wiped out in mass in hth.

Once marines got the ability to kill my whole list with grav before i can close it all changed. Tacs are not part of that problem. Its all tiggy and grav cents.

Yeah i really dont see how these tacs are getting wiped out in mass besides from dedicated anti marine attacks. and at that if against BA they are going to lose because BA have better stats for CC but they are not going to be swepted off the boards unless you literally are the worse roller of 3+ saves.



So you are saying tacticals are not bad but big wombo combos are?

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Killing a single ba here or there does not count as killing anything meaningful. Not when the tacs are being wiped out in mass in hth.

Once marines got the ability to kill my whole list with grav before i can close it all changed. Tacs are not part of that problem. Its all tiggy and grav cents.

Yeah i really dont see how these tacs are getting wiped out in mass besides from dedicated anti marine attacks. and at that if against BA they are going to lose because BA have better stats for CC but they are not going to be swepted off the boards unless you literally are the worse roller of 3+ saves.



So you are saying tacticals are not bad but big wombo combos are?

What im saying is that tacticals shoot and i pick up one model. Grav bikers or grav cents shoot and i pick up squads. I get tacs in hth and I kill them with ease. I get in hth with smashbane and lose entire squads.

Tactical squad get wiped out in HTH because they can't fight in HTH to save their lives. Literally.

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't expect them to remove units, but I do expect them to do *something*, which all too often they fail at.

Then you must have the most unlucky area for marines as they do plenty.

I must too then, because there are ZERO games that go by here where tacticals do something other than be a subpar choice for your army. And they're given plenty of opportunity. I usually let them live until I have no other targets to kill because they're literally lowest priority every time I face them.

Tactical Squads = Minimum Troops FOC requirement (in most cases)

Scouts = Troops

So, in context, as you HAVE to take one or the other, which is better. That should help answer the OP's question.

Personally I'm concerned that whilst scouts could provide a cheap I5 STR5 3A delivery system, I play too many armies that field AP4 weaponry, which is a straight hard counter.

Razerous wrote:
Tactical Squads = Minimum Troops FOC requirement (in most cases)

Scouts = Troops

So, in context, as you HAVE to take one or the other, which is better. That should help answer the OP's question.

Personally I'm concerned that whilst scouts could provide a cheap I5 STR5 3A delivery system, I play too many armies that field AP4 weaponry, which is a straight hard counter.

They're both bad, just in different ways. With regular space marines, they at least have the storm as a transport options for the scouts.

Well its why i send my tactical in to deal with things they normal can deal with.

if its 1 model. lets make it a lemon or a paladin or that ravnger that is harassing my vindicator or triplas.

sure there will be situations where they literally cant deal with anything but that goes for any troops at that point.