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 Desubot wrote:
Well its why i send my tactical in to deal with things they normal can deal with.

if its 1 model. lets make it a lemon or a paladin or that ravnger that is harassing my vindicator or triplas.

sure there will be situations where they literally cant deal with anything but that goes for any troops at that point.

They can't deal with anything on a point for point basis. That's the crux of our entire problem with them.

Other troops pay fewer points for the privilege of sucking. Also, many troops are cheap enough that they can mass up enough shots to accomplish something. See: IG troops.

Martel732 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Well its why i send my tactical in to deal with things they normal can deal with.

if its 1 model. lets make it a lemon or a paladin or that ravnger that is harassing my vindicator or triplas.

sure there will be situations where they literally cant deal with anything but that goes for any troops at that point.

They can't deal with anything on a point for point basis. That's the crux of our entire problem with them.

Other troops pay fewer points for the privilege of sucking.

The problem is you are expecting a unit to perform the same task as a unit that costs 5x as much at least. a grav cent bomb is rediculus amounts of points. so are grav bikes.

Besides Eldar and tau, other troops are relatively equal all around. DEs only shtick is that they have poison shots all of which have paper armor. IG come in 10s and they cost a little bit more then half the tac squad for a bunch of low St shots at low ld if you start spending for there transports and weapons there prices start skyrocketing. Nids need a leashing that requires them to have specific units near by that tend to add to there costs. so does unlocking sm bike troops. orks are a ton of bodies but with low bs and are generally best in cc but are prone to LD base things. Chaos requires unlocking for there better troops like noisemarines but they also cost a lot to get there long range killy. or are plauge marines and dont kill for gak. Daemons are mostly gimmicky at best, usually for summoning.

Eldar are an issue with there presudo rending.
Tau troops are way to cheap for what they do and crisis suits are also not balanced.

LOL scouts are also really awful - just slightly less awful because they cost less points to do something useful. I should really just play IG because I think vets are the best troops out there...more specials...same BS...more versatility...Better transports...much cheaper suicides.

Or those units are balanced and tac marines suck. From where I'm standing, nearly all other troops are more useful than tac marines. So where does the problem truly lie?

In Games Workshop who makes a horribly unbalanced ruleset.

Martel732 wrote:
Or those units are balanced and tac marines suck. From where I'm standing, nearly all other troops are more useful than tac marines. So where does the problem truly lie?

The point is they costs more to make them more killy compared to a tac squad. while there survivability generally never goes up. meaning most of them will die to any stiff breeze that would normally kill a tac as well.

There is no difference in usefulness at best. if you are building a specific troop unit to deal with a specific target, a tac can generally do exactly the same thing and will generally die just the same to retaliation fire.

The major difference is that tactical at least have access to drop pods to move the game up further on there side.

4 flamer BA tacticals in a pod for 170 points. How is that low firepower? Plus, who in their right mind would go around killing Tacs with so much more dangerous BA stuff on the table.

 Araenion wrote:
4 flamer BA tacticals in a pod for 170 points. How is that low firepower? Plus, who in their right mind would go around killing Tacs with so much more dangerous BA stuff on the table.

How can flamers in a pod be considered at all reliable. They have 8 inch range and can scatter 12?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Araenion wrote:
4 flamer BA tacticals in a pod for 170 points. How is that low firepower? Plus, who in their right mind would go around killing Tacs with so much more dangerous BA stuff on the table.

How can flamers in a pod be considered at all reliable. They have 8 inch range and can scatter 12?

because you can still move?

you scatter 2d6 of which yo uwill probably roll 7. of 7 you move 6" anyway. congrats you are back where you want to be. while you dont ever need to deal with misshapping unless you come in near a table edge.

and at that you have a straight 1/3 chance to not scattering at all.

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Or those units are balanced and tac marines suck. From where I'm standing, nearly all other troops are more useful than tac marines. So where does the problem truly lie?

The point is they costs more to make them more killy compared to a tac squad. while there survivability generally never goes up. meaning most of them will die to any stiff breeze that would normally kill a tac as well.

There is no difference in usefulness at best. if you are building a specific troop unit to deal with a specific target, a tac can generally do exactly the same thing and will generally die just the same to retaliation fire.

The major difference is that tactical at least have access to drop pods to move the game up further on there side.

And DA have WS. Your point?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Araenion wrote:
4 flamer BA tacticals in a pod for 170 points. How is that low firepower? Plus, who in their right mind would go around killing Tacs with so much more dangerous BA stuff on the table.

It's not 4 flamers. Hand flamers are notoriously poor.

Martel732 wrote:


And DA have WS. Your point?

My point is stop comparing things to WS and Eldars. EVERYTHING and i mean EVERYTHING looks bad compared to them. and that isnt an issue with all the other codexes. its an issue with the Eldar one specifically.

 Araenion wrote:
4 flamer BA tacticals in a pod for 170 points. How is that low firepower? Plus, who in their right mind would go around killing Tacs with so much more dangerous BA stuff on the table.

If they serve themselves up in a pod, sure I'll kill them with weapons that can't reach the rest of my opponent's army. Please piecemeal yourself for me. Please.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


And DA have WS. Your point?

My point is stop comparing things to WS and Eldars. EVERYTHING and i mean EVERYTHING looks bad compared to them. and that isnt an issue with all the other codexes. its an issue with the Eldar one specifically.

Drop pods make everything better anyway. You can't use the drop pod as a reason why tacticals are good. Because a better unit put in the pod is just that much better. You are the one who brought transports into this, not me. I'm talking tac marines vs things like boyz, IG troops, and DA.

Martel732 wrote:


Drop pods make everything better anyway. You can't use the drop pod as a reason why tacticals are good. Because a better unit put in the pod is just that much better. You are the one who brought transports into this, not me. I'm talking tac marines vs things like boyz, IG troops, and DA.

Its not just the WS the DA also has that BS presudo rend which is by far one of the worst decisions gw made.
being able to negate 2+ armor saves is BS.

Martel732 wrote:
Or those units are balanced and tac marines suck. From where I'm standing, nearly all other troops are more useful than tac marines. So where does the problem truly lie?

This is my thoughts exactly. Insert any troops option from any other army and it is better than tacticals considering CSM squads are just tacticals themselves. This is pretty absurd considering marines are supposed to be elite infantry.

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


Drop pods make everything better anyway. You can't use the drop pod as a reason why tacticals are good. Because a better unit put in the pod is just that much better. You are the one who brought transports into this, not me. I'm talking tac marines vs things like boyz, IG troops, and DA.

Its not just the WS the DA also has that BS presudo rend which is by far one of the worst decisions gw made.
being able to negate 2+ armor saves is BS.

Okay let's talk guardsmen and boyz then. These units have way more dakka/pt and have many more wounds to give. Boyz and guardsmen also negate 2+ saves by throwing piles of dice. More importantly, a unit like tactical terminators can't cause significant damage in return to these units, either.

At st3 and or low BS... any extra hits you get are offset immediately in the to wound step. and vice versa for orks.

and at that you still have armor saves.

while return fire the other way will generally hit and wound on 3s (4s for orks) and they will get no save.

 Desubot wrote:
At st3 and or low BS... any extra hits you get are offset immediately in the to wound step. and vice versa for orks.

and at that you still have armor saves.

while return fire the other way will generally hit and wound on 3s (4s for orks) and they will get no save.

They don't need saves. Marine armor saves have become, frankly a bit of a joke in practice. Either your opponent has AP 2/3 out the wazoo or they just spam you with so many wounds you can't save them all. The inability for marines to shoot back effectively is just crippling.

And your math is wrong about non-marine firepower. Shoota boyz generate more ounds per point, and they do it 6" further out. Guardsmen also generate more wounds per point and have access to synergistic orders that make it even worse.

Martel732 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
At st3 and or low BS... any extra hits you get are offset immediately in the to wound step. and vice versa for orks.

and at that you still have armor saves.

while return fire the other way will generally hit and wound on 3s (4s for orks) and they will get no save.

They don't need saves. Marine armor saves have become, frankly a bit of a joke in practice. Either your opponent has AP 2/3 out the wazoo or they just spam you with so many wounds you can't save them all. The inability for marines to shoot back effectively is just crippling.

At what cost though? you say they spam it out but now that cheap unit is costing more and more then the tactical squad.

Edit: and now you are adding orders in which would add further costs.

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
At st3 and or low BS... any extra hits you get are offset immediately in the to wound step. and vice versa for orks.

and at that you still have armor saves.

while return fire the other way will generally hit and wound on 3s (4s for orks) and they will get no save.

They don't need saves. Marine armor saves have become, frankly a bit of a joke in practice. Either your opponent has AP 2/3 out the wazoo or they just spam you with so many wounds you can't save them all. The inability for marines to shoot back effectively is just crippling.

At what cost though? you say they spam it out but now that cheap unit is costing more and more then the tactical squad.

No, it's not. That's the whole problem.

At least the IG has something somewhere to make their troops more effective. The marines don't even have that.

We don't even need to get into who loses the most points when struck by a riptide pie plate.

Martel732 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
At st3 and or low BS... any extra hits you get are offset immediately in the to wound step. and vice versa for orks.

and at that you still have armor saves.

while return fire the other way will generally hit and wound on 3s (4s for orks) and they will get no save.

They don't need saves. Marine armor saves have become, frankly a bit of a joke in practice. Either your opponent has AP 2/3 out the wazoo or they just spam you with so many wounds you can't save them all. The inability for marines to shoot back effectively is just crippling.

At what cost though? you say they spam it out but now that cheap unit is costing more and more then the tactical squad.

No, it's not. That's the whole problem.

At least the IG has something somewhere to make their troops more effective. The marines don't even have that.

We don't even need to get into who loses the most points when struck by a riptide pie plate.

And im saying yes it is.

you are saying that points for points other troops will gak on marines.
at rapid fire range
against stock guards and stock marines
it is infact 19 shots from guards for 9.5 hits for 3.16 wounds of which 1.05 will fail at 50 points for the unit coming out to 47.368 points per kill
Spacemarine would be 10 shots 6.66 hits 4.44 wounds with no saves. for 70 points for 15.75 points per kill for them.

Id do other codexs if i owned them.

let me try adding in a PCS since infantry squads have to come with them. the extra shots for FRFSRF adds another shot to those .5 more dead marines for 30 more points.

Ork Shootaboys are more durable per point, are unbreakable, and out shoot and out CC tacticals.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ork Shootaboys are more durable per point, are unbreakable, and out shoot and out CC tacticals.

What are the points and stats so i can whip up the math.

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
At st3 and or low BS... any extra hits you get are offset immediately in the to wound step. and vice versa for orks.

and at that you still have armor saves.

while return fire the other way will generally hit and wound on 3s (4s for orks) and they will get no save.

They don't need saves. Marine armor saves have become, frankly a bit of a joke in practice. Either your opponent has AP 2/3 out the wazoo or they just spam you with so many wounds you can't save them all. The inability for marines to shoot back effectively is just crippling.

At what cost though? you say they spam it out but now that cheap unit is costing more and more then the tactical squad.

No, it's not. That's the whole problem.

At least the IG has something somewhere to make their troops more effective. The marines don't even have that.

We don't even need to get into who loses the most points when struck by a riptide pie plate.

And im saying yes it is.

you are saying that points for points other troops will gak on marines.
at rapid fire range
against stock guards and stock marines
it is infact 19 shots from guards for 9.5 hits for 3.16 wounds of which 1.05 will fail at 50 points for the unit coming out to 47.368 points per kill
Spacemarine would be 10 shots 6.66 hits 4.44 wounds with no saves. for 70 points for 15.75 points per kill for them.

Id do other codexs if i owned them.

let me try adding in a PCS since infantry squads have to come with them.

Your missing the point. A big part of why tacs suck is their lack of special weapons per points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ork Shootaboys are more durable per point, are unbreakable, and out shoot and out CC tacticals.

What are the points and stats so i can whip up the math.

Not sure the exact points on the upgrades for the boys. a 30 man with 3 big shootas a nob with a bigshoota is only about 30 points more than a to a 10 man tac in a rhino with 2 specials and a vet with a combi.

Big shoota is str 5 ap 5 assualt 3 36" range. Shoota is str 4 ap 6 assualt 2 18" range. Orks have 2 attacks t4 ws4 bs2 and i2 and the nob has a powerclaw 2 wounds 3 attacks.

4 big shootas alone is going to moe the marines down. killing 1-2 marines a turn.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Your missing the point. A big part of why tacs suck is their lack of special weapons per points.

That certainly wasn't the point that was brought up. mostly that tacs suck and always will suck compared to any other troop choice.
But this is exactly the same case for other troops as well anyway. and its harder for other troops too since its harder to get those tools where they needa go that fast. and the mobility generally comes from expensive transports which SM beats for points in general. (not Eldar)

Generally special weapons cost a similar boat load through out most codexes. like 15 for plasmas seem to be consistant. and they will only take 1 per unit at best.

Ig vets can get 3 but they are generally plasmas or meltas. which need to get close or get shot in the open so they almost always go in chimeras which add a whole lot of points to what would of been about 100-115 points.

and if IG can do it then i dont see why marines cant take a rhino which will stem most of the plasma damage.

and what specials can ork boys take?

Edit: wait is this BA tacticals? as vanilla can only has 1 special or 1 heavy at 5 and at 10 can have both but not double specials.

4 big shootas woulnt even kill 1 marine. fyi 12 shots > 4 hits > 2.6 wounds > .8 saves failed.

also assuming the price is correct. the orks will kill about 4.44 marines costing about 48 points per kill.

the revise with tacticals alone would be 21 points per kill. 3.3 dead per 5 marine bolters at 12"

One issue. It's unrealistic to assume that the enemy general would leave things with bad armor outside cover. Something the tacticals get no use from in a troop v troop fight. These calcs are assuming typical 5+. God help the marines if the enemies are in 4+, or if it's night, or both.

140 points of guardsmen would kill 56 points of marines in one volley with no orders, and the same 140 points of marines would only kill 24 points of guard. If we assume that they get simultaneous shooting phases, the guard win that match easy.

140 points of shoots boys and 140 points of marines tie each other in damage, but the shoots boys do it from 6" further away. And if the marines are close enough to double tap, the orks are close enough to move, shoot, then charge with 'ere we go for a very easy charge, and at that point it's night-night marines.

And like I said, this gets much worse for the marines if better cover is available, or if it's night, while the other side experiences no negative effects whatsoever.

niv-mizzet wrote:
One issue. It's unrealistic to assume that the enemy general would leave things with bad armor outside cover. Something the tacticals get no use from in a troop v troop fight. These calcs are assuming typical 5+. God help the marines if the enemies are in 4+, or if it's night, or both.

140 points of guardsmen would kill 56 points of marines in one volley with no orders, and the same 140 points of marines would only kill 24 points of guard. If we assume that they get simultaneous shooting phases, the guard win that match easy.

140 points of shoots boys and 140 points of marines tie each other in damage, but the shoots boys do it from 6" further away. And if the marines are close enough to double tap, the orks are close enough to move, shoot, then charge with 'ere we go for a very easy charge, and at that point it's night-night marines.

And like I said, this gets much worse for the marines if better cover is available, or if it's night, while the other side experiences no negative effects whatsoever.

But not entirely fair either to always calculate against Tacticals. they will always look bad when facing nothing but 2-3-4+ cover saves which are not always possible.
as well only a fool would be that close to an ork mob without any sort of support or atleast thinning them down.

The calculations above is simply to prove that on an even playing field a tactical is infact NOT as bad per points as some people keep trying to say.

The guardsmen also beat the Marines in melee, killing 28 points of marine and only losing 12. This is, of course, assuming that neither side charged. Also, the Marines will go first, but the loss of three guardsmen is hardly damaging to the statistic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
One issue. It's unrealistic to assume that the enemy general would leave things with bad armor outside cover. Something the tacticals get no use from in a troop v troop fight. These calcs are assuming typical 5+. God help the marines if the enemies are in 4+, or if it's night, or both.

140 points of guardsmen would kill 56 points of marines in one volley with no orders, and the same 140 points of marines would only kill 24 points of guard. If we assume that they get simultaneous shooting phases, the guard win that match easy.

140 points of shoots boys and 140 points of marines tie each other in damage, but the shoots boys do it from 6" further away. And if the marines are close enough to double tap, the orks are close enough to move, shoot, then charge with 'ere we go for a very easy charge, and at that point it's night-night marines.

And like I said, this gets much worse for the marines if better cover is available, or if it's night, while the other side experiences no negative effects whatsoever.

But not entirely fair either to always calculate against Tacticals. they will always look bad when facing nothing but 2-3-4+ cover saves which are not always possible.
as well only a fool would be that close to an ork mob without any sort of support or atleast thinning them down.

Those calculations are on 5+ cover, which should be readily available all over the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would like tacticals more if one of several things was done to them, but the specific one I want to mention now is the synergy element. Aka the lack of one.

If they had some kind of supporting fire or crossfire ability where they improved another unit's shooting or something by firing at the same target maybe?

Another would be if cover was a ballistic skill modifier rather than a save. That by itself could put power armor back on the map.

Wait how in the world are you getting your numbers? it honestly makes no sense that guardsmen are beating marines at all per point.

5 marines against 10 guardsman stock, should be assuming some how no one is charging.
Marines go first. 5 attacks 3.33 hits 2.22 wounds 1.48 of them failed saves

and for the ease of calculations assuming no challanges to take out the extra attacks and assuming no one died for whatever reason

guardsmen have 11 attacks 5.5 hits 1.8333 wounds and only .611 failed

That is 47 kill per points vs 81.81 for guardsmen. the marines are near twice as good at killing in CC.


i dont disagree though i REALLY wish cover was a BS mod rather than an or save. also wishing invul worked like a ward to bring back terminators but thats just me

Xenomancers wrote:LOL scouts are also really awful - just slightly less awful because they cost less points to do something useful. I should really just play IG because I think vets are the best troops out there...more specials...same BS...more versatility...Better transports...much cheaper suicides.

Have a look at the victory conditions of your games and play accordingly. If you need to score points, you may find Scouts (cheap, mobile, deployable) better.

In regards to Orks or IG - Again context!

I do like guardsman but currently I need to spend 130pts on the regular guardsmen to have 25 unequipped models or 60pts on unequipped veterans. Orks are similiar. You need to either mass up or equip all of them and all of those examples have serious problems with morale tests.

Put it this way, an Eldar player does not have access to what a Marine Codex has to offer, but along the same theme is not required to pay the troop tax from the marine codex.

Personally, whatever army you build, I was of the opinion that you should always design an army from the Troop Choices and up... Now that everything scores... less so.

 Desubot wrote:
Wait how in the world are you getting your numbers? it honestly makes no sense that guardsmen are beating marines at all per point.

5 marines against 10 guardsman stock, should be assuming some how no one is charging.
Marines go first. 5 attacks 3.33 hits 2.22 wounds 1.48 of them failed saves

and for the ease of calculations assuming no challanges to take out the extra attacks and assuming no one died for whatever reason

guardsmen have 11 attacks 5.5 hits 1.8333 wounds and only .611 failed

That is 47 kill per points vs 81.81 for guardsmen. the marines are near twice as good at killing in CC.


i dont disagree though i REALLY wish cover was a BS mod rather than an or save. also wishing invul worked like a ward to bring back terminators but thats just me

. Your 5 v 10 matchup is weighted to the marines. 70 v 50 points.
Although, admittedly when I did the calculation, I assumed four point guardsmen, because if you call them 5 point men, then the sarge is getting an attack and LD point for free, and that would normally be a 10 point upgrade. You could replace the above with 4 point unmarked chaos cultists, since they are statistically identical.