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 ImAGeek wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
No. The cost of the models and rules makes 40k look affordable by comparison.

Ways round that though, converting from 40k olastic marines, or just using them stock if you arent bothered about 'which armour did the Imperial Fists wear before the heresy' etc. I'm picky like that and I prefer the FW models and yes it's expensive but that just means my army will take longer to build.

Or just make a 30k Emperor's Children Army. About as cheap as you can get as you can simply buy MK VII armor in bulk.

 Orock wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Exactly. I'm doing mine with the proper models but that's my preference, I wouldn't not play you if you had plastic marines or whatever. The plastic space marine vehicles are actually in the books, they're 'Mars pattern' I think, as opposed to the Deimos pattern FW ones.

The rules are a hell of a lot of fun, each legion plays differently, there is an absolute tonne of fun weapons/vehicle upgrades/equipment etc. I love it, price aside.

That's pretty elitist of you. They are on the same height and bases. Hell I would let someone run a lego army against me as long as it was the same dimensions.

Ironically, Lego is probably the only hobby (or at least Christmas gift) pricier than 40k. I got a nephew the death star, which cost more than a lot of 1850 point armies lol (it was more than $600).

 Formosa wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
All i can tell i that i've seen a fight between infantry heavy night lords and big-gunz heavy iron hands. It was over turn 2 for night lords. While iron hands lost 1 bolter guy and 1 plazmacannon guy to overheat. Forgeworld really favors big gunz a lot. Those massed plazma cannons and s6 gunz with quadrillion shots that generate extra shots are brutal. And iron hands basically have +1 toughness across the board for no extra points.

Its a useless rule against my world eaters who have almost no ranged shooting to speak of, and 60+ tac marines with apothecaries will get to his line and as he has spent all his points in guns, he will die to combat

Night lords had 40 footslogging marines with apothecaries, 20 infiltrating marines, deepstriking termies and speeders. 40 marines got obliterated turn 1. others got finished off turn 2. Mind you, night lords had stealth. It's just not much you can do with footslogging marines vs a gunline of plasma cannons, heavy voltkits and basilisks.

If the missions were maelstorm, maybe you could sit behind blos and hope to get VP here and there, wait for termies to arrive and clear out the voltkits or basilisks at least. But the Night lord guy chose to move forward.

From reading this, 30k has quite a few "balance" advantages:
1. primarily Space Marine armies
2. no Xenos forces
3. restricted composition
4. Fluff bunny players
5. no Tournament scene

In many ways, it sounds like OOTB Mordheim, which was a beauty of a game designed around humans with minor differences, and one option for Skaven which was playtested right off the bat. By the time Town Cryer added Beastmen, it was all over.

Or consider OOTB BFG, which was also lovely, with essentially similar Imperial v Chaos ships and carefully-balanced Ork & Eldar forces. But add Necrons and Tyranids, and it all falls apart.

Mark my words, if 30k starts having tournaments with big prizes, people will work to break it. Add more and more kinds of armies, and it probably falls apart even faster.

 Orock wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Exactly. I'm doing mine with the proper models but that's my preference, I wouldn't not play you if you had plastic marines or whatever. The plastic space marine vehicles are actually in the books, they're 'Mars pattern' I think, as opposed to the Deimos pattern FW ones.

The rules are a hell of a lot of fun, each legion plays differently, there is an absolute tonne of fun weapons/vehicle upgrades/equipment etc. I love it, price aside.

That's pretty elitist of you. They are on the same height and bases. Hell I would let someone run a lego army against me as long as it was the same dimensions.

I think you need to re read my post...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
From reading this, 30k has quite a few "balance" advantages:
1. primarily Space Marine armies
2. no Xenos forces
3. restricted composition
4. Fluff bunny players
5. no Tournament scene

In many ways, it sounds like OOTB Mordheim, which was a beauty of a game designed around humans with minor differences, and one option for Skaven which was playtested right off the bat. By the time Town Cryer added Beastmen, it was all over.

Or consider OOTB BFG, which was also lovely, with essentially similar Imperial v Chaos ships and carefully-balanced Ork & Eldar forces. But add Necrons and Tyranids, and it all falls apart.

Mark my words, if 30k starts having tournaments with big prizes, people will work to break it. Add more and more kinds of armies, and it probably falls apart even faster.

Not sure where you got restricted composition, there's a hell of a lot more options than any army in 40k. And as said, there's Solar Auxilia and Mechanicum, which while not Xenos are very different to the Space Marines. And I'm pretty sure they're legal in 40k as per the last FAQ so TO's discretion obviously but I think they're allowed at tournaments now.

 koooaei wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
All i can tell i that i've seen a fight between infantry heavy night lords and big-gunz heavy iron hands. It was over turn 2 for night lords. While iron hands lost 1 bolter guy and 1 plazmacannon guy to overheat. Forgeworld really favors big gunz a lot. Those massed plazma cannons and s6 gunz with quadrillion shots that generate extra shots are brutal. And iron hands basically have +1 toughness across the board for no extra points.

Its a useless rule against my world eaters who have almost no ranged shooting to speak of, and 60+ tac marines with apothecaries will get to his line and as he has spent all his points in guns, he will die to combat

Night lords had 40 footslogging marines with apothecaries, 20 infiltrating marines, deepstriking termies and speeders. 40 marines got obliterated turn 1. others got finished off turn 2. Mind you, night lords had stealth. It's just not much you can do with footslogging marines vs a gunline of plasma cannons, heavy voltkits and basilisks.

If the missions were maelstorm, maybe you could sit behind blos and hope to get VP here and there, wait for termies to arrive and clear out the voltkits or basilisks at least. But the Night lord guy chose to move forward.

Well, if you want to play competent, you should always have a Command Squad with an Apothecary and Legion Praetor on Jetbikes with power weapons to bring in a LOT of hurt.

So, what's making it so much better than a 'regular 40k' if one themed army can't compete with another themed army without taking eldar comsquad on jetbikes?

 Orock wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Exactly. I'm doing mine with the proper models but that's my preference, I wouldn't not play you if you had plastic marines or whatever. The plastic space marine vehicles are actually in the books, they're 'Mars pattern' I think, as opposed to the Deimos pattern FW ones.

The rules are a hell of a lot of fun, each legion plays differently, there is an absolute tonne of fun weapons/vehicle upgrades/equipment etc. I love it, price aside.

That's pretty elitist of you. They are on the same height and bases. Hell I would let someone run a lego army against me as long as it was the same dimensions.

Uh. Reread. He wrote "wouldn't not." Wouldn't means "would not,". So he said Would not not, play you if you had plastic space marines." It is a double negative, I believe. He is agreeing with you, not elitist.

Edit: I got ninja'd.

30k appears so well balanced simply because the opposing army you're going up against is not much different from your own. Aside from individual special legion units. They're the same Army's.

40k has lost its balance I think due in part to the many factions that are playable. Each army doesn't necessarily counter the other army in 40k.

Some armies do well against one army and very poorly against another and vise versa.

For starters, I played my 30k EC up against my friends Tyrannid army and I got blown out of the water. At 2500 I still lacked the firepower to take down MC, not exactly what 30k is about.

40k Comes out with one creature or unit and a few months later something comes up to counter it but eventually breaks the game.

 tommse wrote:
With all the hassle people have with 40k, there´s always someone saying that Forgeworld did a great job with their HH stuff and there never is anyone argumenting against it.
What makes people view 30k as a better system?

As other's have said. 30K is exactly as balanced as 40K would be with only Space Marines.

Add more armies to 30K, it becomes closer to 40K.

Take away even more options from 30K, and it becomes "more" balanced".

Hell, if you reduce 40K to only 2 factions with only 5 or 6 different models/options aside, you'd have X-Wing
If you reduce 40K to only mirror matches of one army with identical miniatures each side, you're getting close to chess,

What people perceive as balance is simply lack of diversity and what people perceive as lack of balance is simply variety.

Wonderwolf wrote:

 tommse wrote:
With all the hassle people have with 40k, there´s always someone saying that Forgeworld did a great job with their HH stuff and there never is anyone argumenting against it.
What makes people view 30k as a better system?

As other's have said. 30K is exactly as balanced as 40K would be with only Space Marines.

Add more armies to 30K, it becomes closer to 40K.

Take away even more options from 30K, and it becomes "more" balanced".

Hell, if you reduce 40K to only 2 factions with only 5 or 6 different models/options aside, you'd have X-Wing
If you reduce 40K to only mirror matches of one army with identical miniatures each side, you're getting close to chess,

What people perceive as balance is simply lack of diversity and what people perceive as lack of balance is simply variety.

you have an Innacurate idea about balance.

 MWHistorian wrote:
you have an Innacurate idea about balance.

I don't.

Should you'll ever get over your denial, you'll realise I do not.

It's got nothing to do with the "only 2 armies", I play 30k vs 40k more than 30 on 30, so your analogy of adding more armies doesn't hold up, 30k is better simply as the designers have actually played the game and tested it, gw main doesn't even Olay it's own game and has no idea how to fix it

Nit even GW could screw up the balance of a game where armies are 90% identical.

That being said I'm not a 30k expert but I've heard the balance of Legion specific units isn't great, wuth some legions getting vastly better units than others. Is that the case?

Not really no, and yes.

Legion specific units are heavily fluff based and pay extra points it seems for rarity.

For example red butchers are 2 wound 4++ combat monsters, with terminator armour, then you have gorgan terminators, they tote around with grav guns, which are brutal, gal vorbak are multiwound rending with any kind of cc attack, the list goes on but all in all they are pretty solid.

The only unit that sticks out as distinctly meh are rampagers, but only due to caedre weapons being too pricey for bad ap

I love the Horus Heresy stuff. Once you get past the price I prefer it to 40k, better models, much better written and presented books, more fun rules/units. Of course it helps I love the setting of the Horus Heresy, and you are paying for all that...

If anyone is interested in the heresy, I would recommend the Age of Darkness section on the Bolter and Chainsword forum. The community there is excellent, very helpful and everyone is very creative, it's perfect for spitballing ideas. The setting of the heresy lends itself perfectly to beig creative as its a huge setting, you can have loyalist Night Lords, even traitor Ultramarines if you wanted!

Wonderwolf wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
you have an Innacurate idea about balance.

I don't.

Should you'll ever get over your denial, you'll realise I do not.

its an old and untrue argument. Variety doesn't cause imbalance. GW's lack of playtesting does. Most of the problems and fixes are shockingly easy, but GW just can't be bothered to do it.

Wonderwolf wrote:

 tommse wrote:
With all the hassle people have with 40k, there´s always someone saying that Forgeworld did a great job with their HH stuff and there never is anyone argumenting against it.
What makes people view 30k as a better system?

As other's have said. 30K is exactly as balanced as 40K would be with only Space Marines.

Add more armies to 30K, it becomes closer to 40K.

Take away even more options from 30K, and it becomes "more" balanced".

Hell, if you reduce 40K to only 2 factions with only 5 or 6 different models/options aside, you'd have X-Wing
If you reduce 40K to only mirror matches of one army with identical miniatures each side, you're getting close to chess,

What people perceive as balance is simply lack of diversity and what people perceive as lack of balance is simply variety.

You've only ever played 40k I take it?

 MWHistorian wrote:

Wonderwolf wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
you have an Innacurate idea about balance.

I don't.

Should you'll ever get over your denial, you'll realise I do not.

its an old and untrue argument. Variety doesn't cause imbalance. GW's lack of playtesting does. Most of the problems and fixes are shockingly easy, but GW just can't be bothered to do it.

Variety doesn't help. Uniqueness will be left out. One of the reasons 30k is popular is because from the onset, you knew what to expect. I'm a space marine, and I'm going to be fighting another space marine every time.

We'll have to see how they manage with two new Army's, 30k IG and the introduction of Imperial Knights. I don't know if they're allowing IKs as Army's or not but I know that introducing them will throw a huge wrench in the 30k gears.

Wonderwolf wrote:

 tommse wrote:
With all the hassle people have with 40k, there´s always someone saying that Forgeworld did a great job with their HH stuff and there never is anyone argumenting against it.
What makes people view 30k as a better system?

As other's have said. 30K is exactly as balanced as 40K would be with only Space Marines.

Add more armies to 30K, it becomes closer to 40K.

Take away even more options from 30K, and it becomes "more" balanced".

Hell, if you reduce 40K to only 2 factions with only 5 or 6 different models/options aside, you'd have X-Wing
If you reduce 40K to only mirror matches of one army with identical miniatures each side, you're getting close to chess,

What people perceive as balance is simply lack of diversity and what people perceive as lack of balance is simply variety.

Wow, the cluelessness is out of this world.

I know people will blast me but look at World of Warcraft. Video game MMO that has had a fair share of balance issues.

They respond to fix one issue but greatly break another. Make two classes seem somewhat alike or balanced and the players throw a fit about how they don't want to play a style similar to another class.

Or complain that the new ability is the same as another ability.

When you try to give everyone a little of their own flavor you end up with this problem.

What I like of 30k is like I'm going back to basic. You got 2 similar armies built around a lot of troops (SM) or a few (termi) and the way of winning go more with strategy and "game play" than deathstare or big stuff you can do nothing again it.

Angron, 10 red butchers, kharn

That's a hell of a deatjstar, but other legions can do the same

Talys wrote:

 Orock wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Exactly. I'm doing mine with the proper models but that's my preference, I wouldn't not play you if you had plastic marines or whatever. The plastic space marine vehicles are actually in the books, they're 'Mars pattern' I think, as opposed to the Deimos pattern FW ones.

The rules are a hell of a lot of fun, each legion plays differently, there is an absolute tonne of fun weapons/vehicle upgrades/equipment etc. I love it, price aside.

That's pretty elitist of you. They are on the same height and bases. Hell I would let someone run a lego army against me as long as it was the same dimensions.

Ironically, Lego is probably the only hobby (or at least Christmas gift) pricier than 40k. I got a nephew the death star, which cost more than a lot of 1850 point armies lol (it was more than $600).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Orock wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Exactly. I'm doing mine with the proper models but that's my preference, I wouldn't not play you if you had plastic marines or whatever. The plastic space marine vehicles are actually in the books, they're 'Mars pattern' I think, as opposed to the Deimos pattern FW ones.

The rules are a hell of a lot of fun, each legion plays differently, there is an absolute tonne of fun weapons/vehicle upgrades/equipment etc. I love it, price aside.

That's pretty elitist of you. They are on the same height and bases. Hell I would let someone run a lego army against me as long as it was the same dimensions.

I think you need to re read my post...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
From reading this, 30k has quite a few "balance" advantages:
1. primarily Space Marine armies
2. no Xenos forces
3. restricted composition
4. Fluff bunny players
5. no Tournament scene

In many ways, it sounds like OOTB Mordheim, which was a beauty of a game designed around humans with minor differences, and one option for Skaven which was playtested right off the bat. By the time Town Cryer added Beastmen, it was all over.

Or consider OOTB BFG, which was also lovely, with essentially similar Imperial v Chaos ships and carefully-balanced Ork & Eldar forces. But add Necrons and Tyranids, and it all falls apart.

Mark my words, if 30k starts having tournaments with big prizes, people will work to break it. Add more and more kinds of armies, and it probably falls apart even faster.

Not sure where you got restricted composition, there's a hell of a lot more options than any army in 40k. And as said, there's Solar Auxilia and Mechanicum, which while not Xenos are very different to the Space Marines. And I'm pretty sure they're legal in 40k as per the last FAQ so TO's discretion obviously but I think they're allowed at tournaments now.

I apologize then, I thought you added not in accidentally.

What faq are you referring to

I had a look and I think I was slightly wrong, the FAQ updated some of their rules for 7th and Conquest has a bit about using the list in a normal 40k game.

Johnnytorrance wrote:
I know people will blast me but look at World of Warcraft. Video game MMO that has had a fair share of balance issues.

They respond to fix one issue but greatly break another. Make two classes seem somewhat alike or balanced and the players throw a fit about how they don't want to play a style similar to another class.

Or complain that the new ability is the same as another ability.

When you try to give everyone a little of their own flavor you end up with this problem.

Then how does let's say Warmahordes avoid it? 6 factions in Warmachine (plus mercenaries), 4(i think) in Hordes (+ minions), each woth their own distinctive flavor and yet pretty balanced.

Wonderwolf wrote:

As other's have said. 30K is exactly as balanced as 40K would be with only Space Marines.

It boggles my mind that people say things like this, considering that 40K marine armies match-up horribly with each other. Chaos Space Marines would like to have a word with you in regards to how evenly 40K marine armies are balanced against one another.

Hell, Black Templars and Raven Guard would like a word as well. Games Workshop can't even balance chapter tactics against one another properly, and they all exist within the same book.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Wonderwolf wrote:

As other's have said. 30K is exactly as balanced as 40K would be with only Space Marines.

It boggles my mind that people say things like this, considering that 40K marine armies match-up horribly with each other. Chaos Space Marines would like to have a word with you in regards to how evenly 40K marine armies are balanced against one another.

Ha! That's a good point, I hadn't even thought of that.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Wonderwolf wrote:

As other's have said. 30K is exactly as balanced as 40K would be with only Space Marines.

It boggles my mind that people say things like this, considering that 40K marine armies match-up horribly with each other. Chaos Space Marines would like to have a word with you in regards to how evenly 40K marine armies are balanced against one another.

Ha! That's a good point, I hadn't even thought of that.

I don't know why 40k should be balanced. Different worlds, different technologies and let the best win.