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Well point is, that force org is extremely restrictive, and for base play people follow the force orgs, not formations or allies (least in my gaming circle).
So this army, to me, is a bust.
Feel I ought to cut my losses and go try sisters, sell/trade my remaining junk (as well as everything I bought prematurely for this army).

It is a force org chart....

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
Well point is, that force org is extremely restrictive, and for base play people follow the force orgs, not formations or allies (least in my gaming circle).
So this army, to me, is a bust.
Feel I ought to cut my losses and go try sisters, sell/trade my remaining junk (as well as everything I bought prematurely for this army).

This sounds more like a problem with your gaming groups than with the rules.

 Hulksmash wrote:
It is a force org chart....

An extremely restrictive one I don't like...
I don't wanna shell out hundreds of dollars for an army I don't like the org style of...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mercury14 wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
Well point is, that force org is extremely restrictive, and for base play people follow the force orgs, not formations or allies (least in my gaming circle).
So this army, to me, is a bust.
Feel I ought to cut my losses and go try sisters, sell/trade my remaining junk (as well as everything I bought prematurely for this army).

This sounds more like a problem with your gaming groups than with the rules.

Well it is what it is, though as I have stated, even if I wanted to ally, I can't since I have no other 40k armies.
I just wanted Harlequins, and I am severely bummed out how they turned out.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
It is a force org chart....

An extremely restrictive one I don't like...
I don't wanna shell out hundreds of dollars for an army I don't like the org style of...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mercury14 wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
Well point is, that force org is extremely restrictive, and for base play people follow the force orgs, not formations or allies (least in my gaming circle).
So this army, to me, is a bust.
Feel I ought to cut my losses and go try sisters, sell/trade my remaining junk (as well as everything I bought prematurely for this army).

This sounds more like a problem with your gaming groups than with the rules.

Well it is what it is, though as I have stated, even if I wanted to ally, I can't since I have no other 40k armies.
I just wanted Harlequins, and I am severely bummed out how they turned out.

Holy crap dude.
We know relatively nothing about the force org, and you're already complaining?
Don't like it? Then don't play. But don't come here posting repeatedly about how dashed your hopes were when you know nothing. First, nobody cares. We understood the first time. You were bummed. Got it.
Seriously, it's just kinda pathetic.

TLDR; bawk bawk chicken little. Sky hasn't fallen yet.

Well, we actually know everything about the force org, in full, unflinching detail.

What we don't know, yet, is if there are unannounced (and unrumoured, which this close to release means it's unlikely) models which WD can't feature yet which make a difference, or more detachments/force orgs in the Codex outside of this one.

Expressing disappointment at GW potentially screwing up a cool army because they're dumb may be a touch premature, but it isn't hugely unjustified this close to release.

Gentlemen, the tone is getting a bit shrill. Rule Number One is Be Polite. This is a discussion forum, people are free to air their opinions one way or the other -- just please keep the personal attacks out of it. Thanks.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Well, we actually know everything about the force org, in full, unflinching detail.

What we don't know, yet, is if there are unannounced (and unrumoured, which this close to release means it's unlikely) models which WD can't feature yet which make a difference, or more detachments/force orgs in the Codex outside of this one.

Expressing disappointment at GW potentially screwing up a cool army because they're dumb may be a touch premature, but it isn't hugely unjustified this close to release.

Thank you

Just when you think GW has done something right....

Oh wait I was super excited for this personally

We'll just have to wait and see what happens but we all know GW's "one step forward, two steps back" approach to things.

I do think we have to wait until we get the codex. There may be more detachments or more likely formations that can be taken with the detachment. I would love to see more units in the codex, my guess is that Mimes and other things will be left out. We did get a transport, a gun boat, bikes and the solitaire back so all in all it is much better than what it has been since second edition.
The Harlequins have always been a fragile army and an expensive point sink one. I do not think it will a top tier army by itself. I do think it is playable. I learned early on, play what you want and you will get good at it if you keep practicing with it. Don't be discouraged at first, this is a new army rules set, you are going to lose a lot before you start winning and learning how to run things properly and what works best for you.

I agree that personal attacks are not warranted ever. However, I think complaining about things incessintly does not benifit anyone either. We can not change the rules, we just have to deal with what we get or if we can not handle this, play a different game. If you think it will be better with Sisters... good luck with that. I play Sisters too, but I am very aware of their limmitations. Can they win? Hell yeah... are they top tier? Nope.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Well, we actually know everything about the force org, in full, unflinching detail.

We know the detachment. We don't know if or what any formations will be found in the codex.

This force organization is more than a bit restrictive, however, the secrets of the black library may add the few thing we're missing. Could a relic grant stealth and infiltrate to a unit? Could a relic spear give a troupemaster an extra wound and other associated goodies. We may well have all the options we want, we just don't know. (Don't forget, the eldar codex gave us our first taste of a "special character" creating relic with the mantle) I was going to buy 3 of the vehicles, 2 boxes of skyweavers, a troupe box and a wych box(to give me a total of 23 harlis) and I already have the solitaire, death jester, and 2 shadowseers. Looks like I'll have everything I need to run that army. Happy times! Of you're seriously looking to drop your harlequins, please pm me, I have a significant amount of money set aside for this release

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
This force organization is more than a bit restrictive, however, the secrets of the black library may add the few thing we're missing. Could a relic grant stealth and infiltrate to a unit? Could a relic spear give a troupemaster an extra wound and other associated goodies. We may well have all the options we want, we just don't know. (Don't forget, the eldar codex gave us our first taste of a "special character" creating relic with the mantle) I was going to buy 3 of the vehicles, 2 boxes of skyweavers, a troupe box and a wych box(to give me a total of 23 harlis) and I already have the solitaire, death jester, and 2 shadowseers. Looks like I'll have everything I need to run that army. Happy times! Of you're seriously looking to drop your harlequins, please pm me, I have a significant amount of money set aside for this release

Access to webway portals could make a big difference, as well, and would totally make sense given that Harlies live in the webway. No-scatter-deepstriking Harlies with fusion pistols could be quite fun.

Same offer from me, Rainbow Dash. If you want to unload your Harlequins, PM me you with what you have ordered so far.

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?51807-Codex-Harlequins-Rumor-Roundup!/page46

Look at the post from Chaosftw, the text that goes along with the detachment picture helps explain quite a bit. The way it's worded leads me to believe that formation is optional.

Don't know if you guys caught this yet:

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=12765&d=1423671866

It notes that included with the "Troupe Master Edition" (or whatever) are psychic cards for Telepathy and Sanctic Demonology. Harlequins with Hammerhand or Gate of Infiniti, anyone?

Santic Daemonology?

Sweet, the White Seers are making an appearance!

 Kanluwen wrote:
Santic Daemonology?

Sweet, the White Seers are making an appearance!

I hadn't even thought about this possibility before, but it actually makes perfect sense. Like the Grey Knights, the Harlequins are devoted to a god that is diametrically opposed to chaos.

I foresee additional Shadowseer purchases in my future.

 Asmodas wrote:
Like the Grey Knights, the Harlequins are devoted to a god that is diametrically opposed to chaos.

Very true! Although, in the vein of fun lore-bantering, I think it might be more accurate to say that the reverse is actually true - that Chaos (more specifically Slaanesh) is diametrically opposed to their god (being born from the downfall of the Eldar race and constituting everything wrong with them).

 Ghaz wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Well, we actually know everything about the force org, in full, unflinching detail.

We know the detachment. We don't know if or what any formations will be found in the codex.

Yes, I said that in the exact post you quoted.

Sorry if I'm late. I just saw the "limited edition" price. $205.... Really? REALLY??? Is this thing gold plated or something? Keeping with tradition I fail to see why a few art prints and a paper certificate is worth a 400% increase in price.

I get it's artificially "rare" but I don't see how anyone could justify that much of an increase for that little benefit.

Of course, that detachment ALSO lists SolitaireS.

So, there's that debate to fuss over.

 Doomaflatchi wrote:

 Asmodas wrote:
Like the Grey Knights, the Harlequins are devoted to a god that is diametrically opposed to chaos.

Very true! Although, in the vein of fun lore-bantering, I think it might be more accurate to say that the reverse is actually true - that Chaos (more specifically Slaanesh) is diametrically opposed to their god (being born from the downfall of the Eldar race and constituting everything wrong with them).

Haha, true enough!

Seriously, though, as long as the Shadowseer isn't Mastery Level 1, she is going to be a boss. These are some great disciplines to have access to. Telepathy is also excellent! Harlequins using Sanctuary to buff up their invulns? Yes please!

 drazz wrote:
Of course, that detachment ALSO lists SolitaireS.

So, there's that debate to fuss over.

It then goes on to say:

A typical masque might include one Shadowseer and Death Jester per Troupe and a single Solitaire (thus filling all seven Elite slots).

They set the Solitaire as a Character(Unique) so I will be really surprised if they are meant to allow more than one per Masque.

 Asmodas wrote:
Seriously, though, as long as the Shadowseer isn't Mastery Level 1, she is going to be a boss.

No, you fool!! You jinxed it!!!

Seriously though, if the Shadowseer is Mastery Level 1 I will cry. Just straight up bawl. The current Psychic phase rules in 40k are such that no Mastery Level 1 psyker can reliably get a power off; they only exist to be taken en masse and buff your dice pool for the guys who are actually casting things (like Warlocks with Farseers, for example). I honestly expect them to be Mastery Level 2, which is still just barely sufficient - with one ML2 Shadowseer per squad, I could reliably get off one maybe two powers per turn, but only if my opponent wasn't fielding a Farseer Council or the like with a fistfull of counterspell dice.

 Doomaflatchi wrote:

 Asmodas wrote:
Seriously, though, as long as the Shadowseer isn't Mastery Level 1, she is going to be a boss.

No, you fool!! You jinxed it!!!

Seriously though, if the Shadowseer is Mastery Level 1 I will cry. Just straight up bawl. The current Psychic phase rules in 40k are such that no Mastery Level 1 psyker can reliably get a power off; they only exist to be taken en masse and buff your dice pool for the guys who are actually casting things (like Warlocks with Farseers, for example). I honestly expect them to be Mastery Level 2, which is still just barely sufficient - with one ML2 Shadowseer per squad, I could reliably get off one maybe two powers per turn, but only if my opponent wasn't fielding a Farseer Council or the like with a fistfull of counterspell dice.

That's why you bring your own Farseers!

Neronoxx wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
It is a force org chart....

An extremely restrictive one I don't like...
I don't wanna shell out hundreds of dollars for an army I don't like the org style of...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mercury14 wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
Well point is, that force org is extremely restrictive, and for base play people follow the force orgs, not formations or allies (least in my gaming circle).
So this army, to me, is a bust.
Feel I ought to cut my losses and go try sisters, sell/trade my remaining junk (as well as everything I bought prematurely for this army).

This sounds more like a problem with your gaming groups than with the rules.

Well it is what it is, though as I have stated, even if I wanted to ally, I can't since I have no other 40k armies.
I just wanted Harlequins, and I am severely bummed out how they turned out.

Holy crap dude.
We know relatively nothing about the force org, and you're already complaining?
Don't like it? Then don't play. But don't come here posting repeatedly about how dashed your hopes were when you know nothing. First, nobody cares. We understood the first time. You were bummed. Got it.
Seriously, it's just kinda pathetic.

TLDR; bawk bawk chicken little. Sky hasn't fallen yet.

Damn, why so aggresive, come on, we are all friends in this hobby -.-

I fully support Rainbow Dash's opinion about him feeling dissapointed and not being so hasty about jumping into buying this army. It is somewhat lacking, doesn't have even common HQ slot, and shackles player in using very limited Detachement, if there will be no more FOCs in Actual Codex and it doesn't seem that there will be any. Limited, little force more designed as an ally to existing army than 100% army itself like in 2nd ed.

But I, for example, am still just fine about this army and happy about buying Solitaire and 2 Troupes already - I will still be able to field these guys alone because they will have actual Codex, still got most of the bases covered, getting fast and hard-hitting army, cool elites with amazing DJ and Shadowseer on top, hell, even with cool-looking Skimmer HS. And I plan to make these 1500-2000 top, so I am not mad about it being restrictive.

So, you still want to argue who is right, who is wrong in case of his/her FEELINGS about new Harlies ? Or you just would like to admit that only pathetic thing here was passive-aggresive attitude and "Don't like it - don't play it, we don't give a duck and shut up, DUUUUUH" approach, and then just move along ?

Remember that bit about the Skaven calling some Eldar in the new end times book as they looted a Lizardmen city. What if they accidentally called Harlequins and they come and save the Fantasy universe!? The Elves are really just hill billy Eldar.

Wishful thinking, that would be hilarious

I don't understand. How does the force organization chart that was posted limit the ability to field a pure Harlequins army? What is restrictive about it?

 Jambles wrote:
I don't understand. How does the force organization chart that was posted limit the ability to field a pure Harlequins army? What is restrictive about it?

It doesn't.

Currently, the lack of an HQ restricts the ability to field any other detachment other than the special one in the WD.

edit: This is the same as Codex: Inq. They can't field a CAD or an Allied detachment now, iirc.

 Jambles wrote:
I don't understand. How does the force organization chart that was posted limit the ability to field a pure Harlequins army? What is restrictive about it?

The fact that it has so many mandatory slots is what makes me rub my head, and the fact that once those slots are filled, you can't add any more to them without doubling them. It means that (aside from wargear options) all harlequin armies using this detachment are going to be nearly identical.