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mattyrm wrote:As I have always said, I think they are a bit ban happy on here considering almost everyone is a grown up and they have a language filter.

It could be suggested that the fact that we are mostly all grown -ups here means that our ever having to suspend anyone is more than a little depressing...

If said suspended grown -ups paid more attention to actually behaving as such, that wouldn't be an issue.

 insaniak wrote:

mattyrm wrote:As I have always said, I think they are a bit ban happy on here considering almost everyone is a grown up and they have a language filter.

It could be suggested that the fact that we are mostly all grown -ups here means that our ever having to suspend anyone is more than a little depressing...

If said suspended grown -ups paid more attention to actually behaving as such, that wouldn't be an issue.

Obviously that is a debatable point, because what one person may find offensive another may be perfectly fine with, its entirely subjective. I believe Shuma and I had several back and forths and I would often laugh at loud at some of his witty retorts, then presumably a third party would take offense and we would both have to suck on a ban regardless of our feelings on the matter. In fact, in most cases I would presume nobody actually made a complaint, a moderator just decided to step in regardless of the feelings of the two debaters. For myself in my entire time here I have never reported or flagged another user for anything they have said to me, I enjoy a robust debate and somebody calling me a moron via their keyboard offends me not at all, this may not be the case for some people, but I suspect it is the case for the majority.

And even if they do actually offend me, I dont mind as long as they make me laugh with their biting retort.

Personally I think it is analogous to the general world we live in, you have minority rule, where one million people may find a Paddy Power commercial hilarious, but the ASA get 12 complaints and decide to pull it. Its a subjective thing, but I think the forum is poorer for the absence of blokes like Shuma and Gwar, and all of the users I speak to at Game Empire say the same. Funny thing, characters give things character, banning them forever because a very small minority don't like what they say has left the forum poorer in my, and I believe the majorities eyes. Gwar certainly brought plenty of constructive stuff to the table, you just had to take the wacky stuff with a pinch of salt.

And I of course, have a rapier like wit that you are now largely deprived of.

The other points to consider are the fact that you (moderators) are not trained professionals, and the fact that in life in general, people have a natural inclination to make alliances with others that they see eye to eye with. To keep people around the debating table if their beliefs align with their own so to speak. If I was an orthodox Jew or a devout Catholic for example, and another user and I often saw eye to eye, I might want to keep him around slightly more than I wanted this annoying atheist bloke around, so I may start to overlook somewhat more aggressive posts from him, and perhaps look for trifling reasons to rid myself of that heathen non believer and his pesky rebuttals.....

 mattyrm wrote:
I believe Shuma and I had several back and forths and I would often laugh at loud at some of his witty retorts, then presumably a third party would take offense and we would both have to suck on a ban regardless of our feelings on the matter.

And that's the way it has to work, because that exchange isn't visible to only the two of you.

And while you may find it amusing when someone insults you, someone else being insulted elsewhere by that same poster just feels insulted. So it's not behaviour that we want to encourage. But again, it's also not behaviour that we should need to discourage. If a couple of adults can't talk about a game without the conversation devolving into insults, something is seriously wrong with somebody's sense of perspective.

I enjoy a robust debate and somebody calling me a moron via their keyboard offends me not at all, this may not be the case for some people, but I suspect it is the case for the majority.

I think you'll find it's not the case for the majority, which is why people generally don't behave that way face to face. People come to boards like this one to discuss their hobby. That's supposed to be an enjoyable experience. Being told you're a moron because, say, somebody else thinks that this particular toy soldier isn't as powerful as you think it is? That's not enjoyable for most people.

For what it's worth, any of the things that would garner you a suspension from this board would also result in you being unwelcome in my house if they happened face to face.

Its a subjective thing, but I think the forum is poorer for the absence of blokes like Shuma and Gwar, and all of the users I speak to at Game Empire say the same.

The declining post rates in certain parts of the site around that time, which bounced back almost immediately after Gwar left, would suggest that many other community members disagree.

Funny thing, characters give things character, ...

Indeed they do.

But a character that is unwelcoming and offensive is not a character that this forum needs. It doesn't encourage newcomers to join in, and it's off-putting to those who are comfortable here and just want to talk about their hobby without being abused.

...banning them forever because a very small minority don't like what they say ...

Posters don't get suspended because people don't like what they say. They get suspended for the way they choose to say it.

The other points to consider are the fact that you (moderators) are not trained professionals, and the fact that in life in general, people have a natural inclination to make alliances with others that they see eye to eye with. To keep people around the debating table if their beliefs align with their own so to speak. If I was an orthodox Jew or a devout Catholic for example, and another user and I often saw eye to eye, I might want to keep him around slightly more than I wanted this annoying atheist bloke around, so I may start to overlook somewhat more aggressive posts from him, and perhaps look for trifling reasons to rid myself of that heathen non believer and his pesky rebuttals.....

The awesome thing about the 'favoritism' accusation that gets leveled at us on a semi-regular basis is how often we get accused of it by both sides of the argument.

You're absolutely correct that we're not 'trained professionals'. We're volunteers who are here because we chose to help keep this site ticking along, because we like being here and participating in discussion. As we point out every time someone decides that we're moderating with only one eye open, however, all moderation is scrutinised by the rest of the moderation team. And we all most certainly don't always agree. So any issue a moderator has with a specific user is going to be caught by the rest of the team well before it gets to permanent suspension territory.

For the record, the number of permanent suspension that we hand out is very, very low. I've been a mod for a little over five years now, and I think I could count the number of permanent suspensions handed out in that time on one hand. For the most part, people get the message well before that point that their behaviour is not in line with what we expect from posters on this site. We only make it permanent where someone has shown that they have no interest in trying to get along, and where their behaviour is having a negative impact on discussion on the site.

 insaniak wrote:

The awesome thing about the 'favoritism' accusation that gets leveled at us on a semi-regular basis is how often we get accused of it by both sides of the argument.

Obviously, there is a very large pool of moderators, some may favor one thing that another entirely disagrees with, the vast majority of people notice it though, so it obviously does occur.

By the way, don't think I'm attempting to have a go at you for it, I'm neither (very!) judgmental, nor an idealist. I'm a pragmatic man, I do not expect impeccable or entirely impartial behavior from politicians and world leaders, let alone a bunch of blokes on the internet, I'm not having a go at you and I have no wish to drag the thread from its original topic, I just felt I had to respond to what was clearly a dig in my direction. The simple premise I was making was that I, and I am sure a massive amount of other people do feel as if some of the blokes who vanished forever actually added something to the board.

 mattyrm wrote:
[The simple premise I was making was that I, and I am sure a massive amount of other people do feel as if some of the blokes who vanished forever actually added something to the board.

Indeed. And the simple response is that if they were shown the door, it's because the negative impact of their behaviour outweighed any positive contribution that they made.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that the fact that you had no problem with certain behaviour is in any way indicative of a majority opinion. Speaking as one of the guys fielding the complaints, I can say with surety that it's not.

I've been in management for almost six months now, and the majority of "adults" generally fall into two camps: entitled brats that throw temper tantrums, or whiny babies that alternate between tattle telling and being offended by anything they can.

Of course, you can't treat them that way, it's just counter productive. So while I don't envy the mods here, the scolding school marm routine is less effective than they think.

 Polonius wrote:
I've been in management for almost six months now, and the majority of "adults" generally fall into two camps: entitled brats that throw temper tantrums, or whiny babies that alternate between tattle telling and being offended by anything they can.

Of course, you can't treat them that way, it's just counter productive. So while I don't envy the mods here, the scolding school marm routine is less effective than they think.

When it ceases to be effective, that's what the BANHAMMER is for.

Oddly enough, we do have some vague idea of how effective our moderation practices are, on account of actually, you know, doing the moderating.

So Polinus... which type of "adult" camp do you fall into?

Gitsplitta 628321 7497409 temper tantr9cc064e81f8dc2c1dfbc52d690.png wrote:So Polinus... which type of "adult" camp do you fall into?

I thought it was obvious

Im the entitled brat that throws temper tantrums.

More specifically I'm a narcissist idealist, in that I can sometimes use ideals or a concept of the greater good, to act as thr stated rationale for m destructive outbursts. Since I've seen that, im much less prone to it, but there have been times I did real harm to the community I was in. Ostensibly out of concern, but i now see it as egotistical destruction for its own sake. I hurt some people, and thats something I feel shame for. There should is nothing more childish than forgetting that there are other people around you.

Im much better now though.

Well played Polonius...

You gentlemen would surprised how often both sides in an argument will accuse the mods of favouring the other. You'd also be surprised at the level of discussion that goes on about users before this final decision of exterminatus is made.

Generally speaking, I'm of the same opinion that I was before I got access to the other side of the picture; namely that so long as people are generally polite (being friendly is an optional extra), everything gets along swimmingly, with little room for error or offence.

No number of orkmoticons can properly convey tone/intent through text. There's always room for error and/or offence.

Dissenting opinions are fine, for the most part. Being wrong on the internet is surviveable. Being misunderstood is the end of the world. That's when I generally see tempers flare, page-long multi-quote arguments ruthlessly dissected, etc. I'm generally quite laid back, and even I'm not immune to it.


Getting back to the thread's original intent, I'd like to nominate Sean_OBrien for the category of "most definitive P&M knowledge bombs dropped." I can't think of anyone else with as firm a grasp on the more industrial side of all things pertinent to us, from paint chemistry to manufacturing practices to safety procedures. If you want or need to get technical, he's your man.

Howard A Treesong wrote:With 24,000 gallery votes you'd probably win that one anyway Kyoto...

Gitsplitta wrote:Yeah... KK is the most stalwart supporter of the gallery I'm aware of. I know he single-handedly stops me from committing suicide on a daily basis over the time I spend painting & modeling with his supportive comments about my work.

Actually I think Knightly with his massive 42,000 image votes might have the lead by a bit.

 Hordini wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:
Can I claim some kind of "professional lurker" title as the regular user who has made the least impact on the community vs time spent as a registered user? I'm sure there are more deserving people for that tile, but the good news is that nobody will come out to claim it!

That'd probably be the only one that I'd qualify for too. And I've been on Dakka longer than my profile lets on. I remember when we were still on EZboards.

I remember you!

S'up yo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whalemusic360 wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:With 24,000 gallery votes you'd probably win that one anyway Kyoto...

Gitsplitta wrote:Yeah... KK is the most stalwart supporter of the gallery I'm aware of. I know he single-handedly stops me from committing suicide on a daily basis over the time I spend painting & modeling with his supportive comments about my work.

Actually I think Knightly with his massive 42,000 image votes might have the lead by a bit.

Hrm.

Yes.

He does have more votes than me.

Easily fixed.

Where did I leave that banhammer...

dementedwombat wrote:Can I claim some kind of "professional lurker" title as the regular user who has made the least impact on the community vs time spent as a registered user? I'm sure there are more deserving people for that tile, but the good news is that nobody will come out to claim it!

Hordini wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:
Can I claim some kind of "professional lurker" title as the regular user who has made the least impact on the community vs time spent as a registered user? I'm sure there are more deserving people for that tile, but the good news is that nobody will come out to claim it!

That'd probably be the only one that I'd qualify for too. And I've been on Dakka longer than my profile lets on. I remember when we were still on EZboards.

Bah! Your lurker skills could use some ... improvement.

Wow, it's been quite a few years since the EZboard days.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 Hordini wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:
Can I claim some kind of "professional lurker" title as the regular user who has made the least impact on the community vs time spent as a registered user? I'm sure there are more deserving people for that tile, but the good news is that nobody will come out to claim it!

That'd probably be the only one that I'd qualify for too. And I've been on Dakka longer than my profile lets on. I remember when we were still on EZboards.

I remember you!

S'up yo.

Well, it's good to be remembered.
I remember you too, of course! How could anyone forget KK, Destroyer of Boards.

albinoork wrote:Bah! Your lurker skills could use some ... improvement.

Wow, it's been quite a few years since the EZboard days.

I have been posting a bit more recently I suppose. In fairness, I tend to go in spurts.

Take that as you will.

 Ketara wrote:
You gentlemen would surprised how often both sides in an argument will accuse the mods of favouring the other.

Simple solution to that is to assume that the mods are never on your side. Odds are you'll be right most of the time.