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So being a BT player and owning the Emperor's Champion I have been thinking about how to use him. I have played him in games before, but really, it's just extra points that I am throwing in because I like the fluff and I like the model. Recently I have been using him to represent the Relic Blade wielder from the Honor Guard.

But I was just looking at the 30k HH rules for Sigismund, the original Emperors Champion, and he uses the Black Sword as well. But his weapon has the following profile: S+2 AP2, melee, two-handed.

And I was just thinking, if the EC had that weapon, would he suddenly be worth it? Fluff-wise I think it makes sense, and this would even bring him close to his old profile from the BT codex.
I mean, for his point cost with that weapon, he would be only marginally better than an Ork Nob with a PK. Sure the Nob strikes at I1, but the Nob gets S9 on the charge. Same wounds, Same toughness and the nob only costs 40 points.

Side question: in a casual game, would you allow a BT player to substitute the C:SM profile of the Black Sword for the HH profile of the Black Sword?

Yes i would allow you so, but only since i feel your pain as a fellow black templar player.... i haven't played them in 3 months due to how useless they are....

I realize I was comparing him to an Ork Nob, but I'd like to see some point costs for other melee characters that would have the same profile.

For just less than 150 points, what single character can you get that attacks with S6 AP2 on their initiative?

 Icculus wrote:
I realize I was comparing him to an Ork Nob, but I'd like to see some point costs for other melee characters that would have the same profile.

For just less than 150 points, what single character can you get that attacks with S6 AP2 on their initiative?

Khorne Herald with Greater Aetherblade is 75 pts. I can spend another 45 on a juggernaut for a bunch of stat boosts and get calvery speed

EC is pretty useless without his vows tbh

 Icculus wrote:
For just less than 150 points, what single character can you get that attacks with S6 AP2 on their initiative?

A Chaos Lord with MoK and Axe of Blind Fury (strength +2 AP2, gives the rage USR and an additional D6 attacks) is 110 points.

Throw in a Juggernaut mount as well and you're looking at 145 points for an average of 11 strength 6 AP2 attacks at initiative 5 on the charge.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Icculus wrote:
For just less than 150 points, what single character can you get that attacks with S6 AP2 on their initiative?

A Chaos Lord with MoK and Axe of Blind Fury (strength +2 AP2, gives the rage USR and an additional D6 attacks) is 110 points.

Throw in a Juggernaut mount as well and you're looking at 145 points for an average of 11 strength 6 AP2 attacks at initiative 5 on the charge.

This is a prime example. That's just a 5 point increase on the EC and it is WAY more survivable, way more mobile, and way more deadly in CC than the EC out of the book. It's such a shame how badly they nerfed the BT HQ choices. I mean seriously, when was the last time you saw someone use Helbrecht, Grimaldus or the Emperors Champion?

If you have a spare combat shield lying around, you can always slap that onto his other hand and use him as a Relicblade + Stormshield Captain.

S6 AP3 I5 for offense and 2+/3++ for defense is not too bad at all.

Of course, the advantage of the Emp's Champ is you can say "look at me, guys! I'm a BT player who is trapped in C:SM but still want to maintain as much of my originality and uniqueness as possible so feth you, vanilla captain, I'm rolling out in style"

Also, the new Black Templars Emperor's Champion in C:SM has the following buffs compared to his former self in the BT dex:

- Comes with krak grenades now (not that that matters one bit, lol)
- his Black sword is AP 2 (the old BT codex had been FAQ'd in 6th edition to have the black sword be AP3)
- In a challenge, at S4, all to-wound rolls of 6 inflict instant death (in combination with AP2, and the fact that the sword rends in a challenge, this is handy against a whole host of characters and character MCs), and in this stance you get to keep your +1 Attack for 2CCWs and also strike at Initiative 5.
- Black Sword is now master-crafted (so you re-roll one failed to-hit in non-challenges...in challenges you roll all failed hits due to BT:CT ...also something that wasnt present in the old BT dex).
- he is now Fearless, and can thus make any unit he is attached to Fearless as well, so your guys dont have to fret if they lost a combat by multiple models and then would have otherwise had to pass LD at 5 or 6.

 Icculus wrote:
I realize I was comparing him to an Ork Nob, but I'd like to see some point costs for other melee characters that would have the same profile.

For just less than 150 points, what single character can you get that attacks with S6 AP2 on their initiative?

Kharn is 160 and has Str 6 AP2 at initiative.

But then, kharn also comes with a bunch of other stuff that makes up the slight points difference along with a downside or 2.

Kharn is also one of the best bang for your buck characters out there, I see no reason why a BT player, who already gets chapter tactic and has better toys than CSM in every slot anyway, should also get character just as killy as the favoured son of the blood god.

AP 2 at initiative is already incredibly strong, and you want to throw +2 str in there as well? No, I wouldn't allow it except at greatly increased points, probably not even then.

You know what? You're probably right. Now that I think about it, AP2 at I5 and marine strength is a pretty nasty combo and the additional things you get in challenges at a BT guy (re-roll all missed hits, rending to wound T8 and above and ID on a 6) makes for a pretty solid character for "merely" being a blessed space marine on the eve of battle.

Well then lets take the fluff side out of it.
This is an HQ slot, and an HQ slot than can only be taken with Black Templar. So to get this character you have to forego all the other chapter tactics in the book. So no rerolling 1s on bolters for the rest of the army, no librarians, no biker-spam.

So yes, he will be powerful, but again, he is an HQ slot, just like Kharn the betrayer is. Mechanically they take the same roll. HQ for around 140 points on a 2W model who is an absolute beast in close combat but has no real shooting to speak of.

I mean, we could take a chapter master with artificer armor and give him some upgrades and and BT chapter tactics and would be about the same. AND he would get orbital bombardment.

 Icculus wrote:
I realize I was comparing him to an Ork Nob, but I'd like to see some point costs for other melee characters that would have the same profile.

For just less than 150 points, what single character can you get that attacks with S6 AP2 on their initiative?

I know it's not a very good comparison, but the first S6 AP2 that came to mind was a deathwing champion. It's two-handed, so you only get 2 attacks though. Strikes at I 4 though, where I assume yours strikes at 5?

To be fair, the champion is only 50 points.

Yeah this black sword in the HH is two handed also. and yes, the EC is I5. and of course he always has to issue and accept challenges and gets to reroll failed hits in a challenge.

so it would be I5, WS6, S6, Ap2, 2 attacks. reroll failed to-hit. 2+/4++ saves, 2 wounds

 Icculus wrote:
Yeah this black sword in the HH is two handed also. and yes, the EC is I5. and of course he always has to issue and accept challenges and gets to reroll failed hits in a challenge.

so it would be I5, WS6, S6, Ap2, 2 attacks. reroll failed to-hit. 2+/4++ saves, 2 wounds

No its not.

If he uses the S6 profile his sword gets unwieldy, i.e. I1.

I prefer him using I5, WS6, S4, AP2, 3 attacks, re-roll failed to-hits, rending, ID on any to-wound roll of 6, 2+/4++ saves

If the EC was 35-50 points cheaper, I'd play him.
The massive problem still lies in his challenge obsession, since he MUST challenge Abaddon/Lysander/Swarmlord/DC Dread/Other "Will it Blend?" character.

25 points more gets you a Captain with Artificer Armour and the Burning Blade. That's an extra wound, extra attack, and S7 AP2 at initiative. The EC is a joke.

A friend of mine uses the emperors champ in his trip raider BT list all the time. First i would like to say that the templar are far from useless. Second, the emperors champ himself is strong, but about 20 points overcosted. Sigismund, on the other hand, is a house. Occasionally he asks if he can just play sigismund, and most of the time its cool with us.

 Tigramans wrote:
If the EC was 35-50 points cheaper, I'd play him.
The massive problem still lies in his challenge obsession, since he MUST challenge Abaddon/Lysander/Swarmlord/DC Dread/Other "Will it Blend?" character.

Exalted for the single line "Will it blend?"

I think he should just have one more attack for the points you spend. He isn't as buffy as a Chaplain or as durable as a Captain/Chapter Master. Logically I think he should just be somewhat better at attacking. I can't name a single time anyone did the two-handed stance because it's only 2 attacks.

I never liked BTs. I dislike their fluff. I think their older, original was worse.

When they got folded into the SM codex I thought it was a dick move. It really wouldn't have taken much to give them better treatment. Maybe a white dwarf mini-dex or something. They were the third edition poster boys after all. On top of getting folded in to the vanilla dex their SCs suck out loud. Any way you can change or proxy them more power to you.

 Sir Arun wrote:

 Icculus wrote:
Yeah this black sword in the HH is two handed also. and yes, the EC is I5. and of course he always has to issue and accept challenges and gets to reroll failed hits in a challenge.

so it would be I5, WS6, S6, Ap2, 2 attacks. reroll failed to-hit. 2+/4++ saves, 2 wounds

No its not.

If he uses the S6 profile his sword gets unwieldy, i.e. I1.

I prefer him using I5, WS6, S4, AP2, 3 attacks, re-roll failed to-hits, rending, ID on any to-wound roll of 6, 2+/4++ saves

I was propositioning changing his stances for the Black Sword profile from Sigismunds entry in the HH rulebook.

The Black Sword is just a S+2 AP2 melee, two-handed weapon. If we replaced just that plain weapon with all of the EC's special stances. I think he would be a much better character and it would get rid of those silly extra rules that actually make him worse.

BA captain with the 20pt ap2 relic, artificier armour and jump pack comes in at 145pts.
He has 5 st5 I6 ap2 attacks on the charge, has a 12" jump move (so requires no transport), HoW if having moved normally, 2+/4++ and is considered sub-par by most BA players when compared to the other HQs in the dex. He will also very likely be buffed for +1ws and fnp from a priest and/or +1-3A and +1-3I from a libby, also maybe having rage.

Hope that helps your comparison of the worst HQ in C:SM.

It could be worse... he could be Tycho!