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So with all the holiday cash I have, I am really expanding my Imperial Fist portion of my army and since I am a GK player, the first thing I did was look at Terminators since as a GK player that is pretty much all I use anymore but when I actually went to go look in the Space Marine codex to see where it would fit I saw the point cost of them and dang, they are expensive which is a shame because I love Terminators, I love them a lot which is why it was awesome to be a GK player but I can see why I never see Space Marine Terminators on the tabletop and only in places like Space Hulk. Is there anyone here that uses them in an effective way where it doesn't harm your overall gameplay? Is there any way that I could say that I am going to get Terminators with the intention of actually putting them on the field and not having them be "vanity" models? At this point, it would be better to have LotD stand in for Terminators.

Terminators have a severe problem. They've had this problem since 3rd ed, and really before that in my opinion. Their problem is that they are paying a lot of points for a good armor save and a devastating close combat weapon on a model with T4 and W1.

Compared to the average tactical marine, coming in at 14 pts, the terminator at 40 pts would have to be 40/14 = 2.8 times more durable than the tactical marine to have equal durability. This is only true in the case of AP 3 weapons and the tac marine having no cover.

Offense wise, the terminator is really only worth 40 pts while in HTH. Tactical terminators, those with stormbolter and single heavy weapon, like their tactical marine brethren, basically have no offensive punch.

Another major nail in their coffin is the prevalence of AP 2. If AP 3 were common, and AP 2 rare, they would have value. But this is not the case. AP 2 is found everywhere, completely invalidating that expensive save you paid for.

Now this brings us to the popular TH/SS terminators. I like these guys but I don't love them. The are still expensive, and still are not efficient against small arms fire. They do, however, fare very well against AP 2 and MCs. They can't shoot at all, which stinks, but tactical terminators were still better at HTH than shooting, so this setup just reinforces strength.

I personally hate the fact that terminators are basically bad units. I don't want them to be world beaters, but even clocking in at average would be refreshing. As it stands now, even TH/SS termies get crippled by a couple volleys from a squad armed with plasma. Eldar shred them without trying. Tau pie plate them into oblivion. They basically don't live up to the fluff in any way. As I said, I'm cool with average power level.

The most usable TDA units either have 2 wounds, or are T5. They are a fun unit, but not a tournament winner.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
The most usable TDA units either have 2 wounds, or are T5. They are a fun unit, but not a tournament winner.

Those aren't that common. I think the 2 wounds is much better, because T5 is still wounded on 2+ or 3+ by most AP 2 weapons.

Martel732 wrote:
Terminators have a severe problem. They've had this problem since 3rd ed, and really before that in my opinion. Their problem is that they are paying a lot of points for a good armor save and a devastating close combat weapon on a model with T4 and W1.

Compared to the average tactical marine, coming in at 14 pts, the terminator at 40 pts would have to be 40/14 = 2.8 times more durable than the tactical marine to have equal durability. This is only true in the case of AP 3 weapons and the tac marine having no cover.

Offense wise, the terminator is really only worth 40 pts while in HTH. Tactical terminators, those with stormbolter and single heavy weapon, like their tactical marine brethren, basically have no offensive punch.

Another major nail in their coffin is the prevalence of AP 2. If AP 3 were common, and AP 2 rare, they would have value. But this is not the case. AP 2 is found everywhere, completely invalidating that expensive save you paid for.

Now this brings us to the popular TH/SS terminators. I like these guys but I don't love them. The are still expensive, and still are not efficient against small arms fire. They do, however, fare very well against AP 2 and MCs. They can't shoot at all, which stinks, but tactical terminators were still better at HTH than shooting, so this setup just reinforces strength.

I personally hate the fact that terminators are basically bad units. I don't want them to be world beaters, but even clocking in at average would be refreshing. As it stands now, even TH/SS termies get crippled by a couple volleys from a squad armed with plasma. Eldar shred them without trying. Tau pie plate them into oblivion. They basically don't live up to the fluff in any way. As I said, I'm cool with average power level.

I still play with terms because I love them. They are pretty bad but at least they draw fire and attention and thats usually what my shooting lists need. Ive had an entire 5 man get killed by 4 flamers - it's really not that out of line with math ether. I only got a little unlucky with saves. Then theres the infamous drop pod which smoked 2 terms in 1 turn for my buddy. Wow...such bad luck that was but lets get real. 2+ save invites disaster. What you makes models tough is having really high toughness and wounds. If terms were 5t 2 wounds...They would be amazing. T4 2+ save - basically easy for every weapon in the game to cause some poor saves on that puppy. Thats why terms suck.

At least chaos terminators aren't forced to pay for a power fist. Talk about overkill in HTH. 5 power fists? Seriously? What do you need to hit that hard?

I usually try to play my Chaos Terms and they always seem to just do OK. I know we lack the shields of the Loyalists but even with Mark of tzeentch for 4++ they are just OK.

As I stated, the storm shield is far from a cure all. Being an assault unit in 7th just kinda sucks in general.

I usually try to use them now to DS in and pop something I don't like with melta then they usually get blown off the board.

On the contrary, I find TDA assaults to still be brutally effective.

I take a unit of either type, more commonly Assault, to serve bodyguard to an HQ, and with it unlock a 4th Heavy Support option. The LR screaming across the table tends to be ignored next to the vindicator rolling next to it & dreadnoughts in your face I find.

Usually by the time the Dreads are gone the Raider is ready to drop termies and wipe something important out.

I've killed many HQs & beatstick units using that tactic, and still swear by it. It will only become more effective with the Knight that now strides alongside

Good 'ol termicide. I don't blame you, I just find that an absurd way to make expensive and rare armored units effective.


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 IHateNids wrote:
On the contrary, I find TDA assaults to still be brutally effective.

I take a unit of either type, more commonly Assault, to serve bodyguard to an HQ, and with it unlock a 4th Heavy Support option. The LR screaming across the table tends to be ignored next to the vindicator rolling next to it & dreadnoughts in your face I find.

Usually by the time the Dreads are gone the Raider is ready to drop termies and wipe something important out.

I've killed many HQs & beatstick units using that tactic, and still swear by it. It will only become more effective with the Knight that now strides alongside

The problem is that the weapons used to engage land raiders are different than those used to engage vinids, with the exception of the lascannon. The vindis shouldn't be siphoning off any fire at all.

but people tend to not like moving anything into range of a vindicator.

at least in my local, the Vindi is way more threatening & easier to deal with to my opponent's armies

From a lot of this banter, I would still say that Centurions and LotD are still tactically better than Terminators. What gets more about it is that they are both less expensive units and still do a lot for what they are worth. I would only be taking Terminators because I like them and honestly, I can just field them with my GKs just as well and a cheaper cost. For my GK Terminators to be fully kitted out is the same cost as the starting cost of Space Marine Terminators. Upping Terminators to have 2 wounds might be better because the Centurions are so dang effective for their cost because they have Toughness 5 and 2 wounds.

48" or 36" weapons to the side of a vindi wreck it real fast. That's why I quit using them. Also, the new vehicle damage table makes the vindi rather poor against other mech, imo.

I'll grant you that you will get to assault from the LR 80% of the time, and that your unit will win the ensuing HTH combat. However, it's very likely that they will kill their target and be shot to death the next turn. At least, that's how I deal with TDA assaults that are too much of a headache to stop. The cheaper the sacrificial unit, the less efficient the TDA is.

Oh, agreed on the sacrificial lamb tactic

But as said, a Land Raider will often get you through to what you want to hit

Thunderhammer and stormshield terminators can still be pretty good, provided they "get there" .

The last couple times I ran terminators I used the TH/SS variety in a LRC with a naked chaplain. Hatred is pretty nice with these guys. I usually keep at least one Lightning claw though and he gets to reroll to-hits AND to-wound. Fun stuff.

I also use a 2 drop pod Alpha strike to provide some distraction while they move toward my enemy.

Why not mount a storm bolter to the sword arm and give him a storm shield?

I love my DA Deathwing Knights.

I always bring 'em in every DA army list I have.

As a Space Wolf player, I would say I love my WG terminators. A WG TDA squad with CML, 3SS, 1PW, and a chain fist is only 205. They are durable and still pack some punch.

In my opinion, wolf guard, GK, and CSM terminators are all good terminators. What they have in common is they are all cheap enough.

As a Vanilla SM player, I only really use Terminators for fluffy lists or to act as a points sink in less competitive games.

Sternguard and LotD are better at the drop and pop, and Vanilla Marines just don't care that much about throwing 4 power fists (or 5 thunder hammers) at a unit from a Land Raider (especially since LR are vulnerable to DS melta and Lance spam and the whole unit becomes a massive points sink).

That being said, if you can get Invisibility on them, they become hilariously resilient.

BAs Codex ain't in the budget until my Bday :( Whats the ruling on termies in our Dpods?

No. There is no point to taking terminators in SM lists. Besides if you like them or want a fluffy list.

If you need a beatstick unit, then a chapter master + friends on bikes will do it better, and cheaper than terminators + obligatory LRC.

If you need survivability, then tac squads in rhinos, or centurions with invis and/or an invulnerable save are better choices.

If you need ranged firepower, well, you are in the totally wrong place. I'm pretty sure terminators are the worst point:damage output at range in the entire codex.

To sum up, they are not the best at their supposed job, and to even do that job you have to pay a lot more points for to get a landraider for them.

I recently added a five man squad of Terminators to my Sons of Medusa. First game they were in they did alright, shot some Tyranids and slapped around some Tyrant Guard. Not a bad unit especially if you're going heavy on the deep striking. In the game I played they soaked a good amount of fire and tied up the Tyrant and Tyrant guard for two turns which allowed me to get all of my drop pods in as well as get my Storm Raven and talons on the board.

Well, shooty terminators are too expensive for what they do, there is no doubt about this. But I like terminators, so I use them. I find them quit usefull for camping own objects in cover, cause they dont need to get into rapid fire range. Everything that wants to charge them has to face 4 Power Fists and a power sword.

 whembly wrote:
I love my DA Deathwing Knights.

I always bring 'em in every DA army list I have.

I have em - used em 3 times. They have never won an assault for me. Granted I'm bad with 2+ saves. Still. They just don't kill enough. Thunderwolf Calv seem to be ab out twice as tough, twice as killy, and cost the same without needing a transport.

As much as I like the little hunchbacked guys, there are much better uses of those points and those slots. For my Crimson Fists, that is one less squad of Sternguards for me to run. For BA, I could run any number of stuff in that slot.

It does seem that I will get the Terminators when I have some extra money to do something with. It sucks to have such an iconic unit rendered useless to the bulk of Space Marine armies and it seems that I was spoiled with my GK Terminators. I can take solace in the fact that my GK Terminators get used regularly so it isn't like my army is Terminator free but I did want some of them in bright yellow armor showing what it means to the Fist of Dorn.

I use them in my Legion lists. Theres a bit more variation in Legion terminators including some legion specific with more wounds(not my legion :( ) but despite being mostly hamstrung with no normal option for deepstrike and lack of ATSKNF, my termies serve me well even if I do roll an astonishing number of ones in every game while my DE opponent never does.

I usually arm mine with powerfists and an occasional chainfist as standard.

Another thing they do for you is allow you to bring a landraider(or Spartan) as a dedicated transport without using up a heavy slot. Really useful option for Legion lists since our heavy slots are so contested. Same applies to regular CSM since their heavy slots are fairly nice.

Again my concern is what squad is worth sending a LR and TH/SS squad after? Just seems like expensive overkill in most cases. Specifically as a BA player, you will never get assault anything that I don't want you to assault. And BA aren't the only swift army.