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So.. the mekaniak rule in the ork codex says that you can have a "free" (not foc slotted) mek for each HQ, but they have to join an infantry or artillery type unit..

So, I wanted two meks, and I want to join them BOTH to my big mek (he's an infantry type after all)... I can't see any rules that say you can't join two meks to the same unit...

???

Looks fine to me.

The only problem comes when the Big Mek tries to leave the unit... (I believe there was a discussion on this when the Codex came out)

Joining two 'Little' Meks to a Big Mek at the start of the game is no issue.

Having the Big Mek subsequently leave using his Independent Character rules and leaving the two 'Little' Meks as a small unit of two is also no issue.

It seems counterintuitive, but works just fine within the framework of the rules.

Kriswall, where I'd there permission for an IC to leave the IC unit? The Big Mek unit in this case consists of three models. The Big Mek is not attached to the Meks so would not be able to leave their unit.

 Happyjew wrote:
Kriswall, where I'd there permission for an IC to leave the IC unit? The Big Mek unit in this case consists of three models. The Big Mek is not attached to the Meks so would not be able to leave their unit.

I don't have my rulebooks with me right now. Would you be able to quote the Mekaniaks rule for me? My initial understanding is that the rules require you to Join the Meks to an Infantry unit at the start of the game. The Meks can't leave this unit as they don't have the Independent Character rule. The unit would be a "Big Mek Unit". If the Big Mek then chooses to leave the "Big Mek Unit" using his standard IC rules (which allow him to leave the unit he is attached to), you'd be left with two Meks in a "Big Mek Unit" and a Big Mek alone in a "Big Mek Unit". The name of the unit isn't really relevant. By killing off enough Fire Warriors but not Drones, you can have a "Fire Warriors Unit" composed of nothing but the attached Gun Drones. You can have a "Necron Warriors Unit" composed of Lords and Crypteks.

So, what I'm really saying is thay the IC has a permission to leave an Infantry Unit as a part of the IC rules. The fact that it's HIS initial unit doesn't seem to have any impact at all. You'd need to show a restriction preventing him from leaving.

Here's a similar situation.

1. Warboss and Big Mek are standing 6" apart.
2. Warboss moves within coherency and joins the "Big Mek Unit".
3. They krump some heads together for 3 turns.
4. Big Mek decides to leave coherency and move off on his own.

Is this allowed? Surely, yes as I can find nothing preventing it. You have another game situation where an IC is leaving "his own unit".

 Kriswall wrote:
Here's a similar situation.

1. Warboss and Big Mek are standing 6" apart.
2. Warboss moves within coherency and joins the "Big Mek Unit".
3. They krump some heads together for 3 turns.
4. Big Mek decides to leave coherency and move off on his own.

Is this allowed? Surely, yes as I can find nothing preventing it. You have another game situation where an IC is leaving "his own unit".

Not similar. The Big Mek isn't leaving the Big Mek unit, the Warboss is. We know this because the Warboss opted to end his movement phase more than 2" away from the Big Mek unit.

Thanks Guys... my main concern is that they can form a unit under the mekaniak rule... I don't intend to have them separate, but if they do I'll ask my mates to decide between us. I am way too inexperienced to do tournaments so it's all good.

Thanks again everyone!

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Here's a similar situation.

1. Warboss and Big Mek are standing 6" apart.
2. Warboss moves within coherency and joins the "Big Mek Unit".
3. They krump some heads together for 3 turns.
4. Big Mek decides to leave coherency and move off on his own.

Is this allowed? Surely, yes as I can find nothing preventing it. You have another game situation where an IC is leaving "his own unit".

Not similar. The Big Mek isn't leaving the Big Mek unit, the Warboss is. We know this because the Warboss opted to end his movement phase more than 2" away from the Big Mek unit.

To be more specific...

The Warboss remains stationary and doesn't move at all in the turn that the Big Mek moves and leaves coherency. We know from the IC rules that the act of leaving a unit requires that the IC move out of coherency with it. If the Warboss is remaining stationary, he can't possibly be the one leaving the unit as he isn't moving. For context, from the IC rules (no page because... eBook!). "An Independent Character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of unit coherency with it." Leaving a unit requires movement. If the Warboss isn't moving, he isn't the one leaving. He's being left.

 Kriswall wrote:
The Warboss remains stationary and doesn't move at all in the turn that the Big Mek moves and leaves coherency. We know from the IC rules that the act of leaving a unit requires that the IC move out of coherency with it. If the Warboss is remaining stationary, he can't possibly be the one leaving the unit as he isn't moving. For context, from the IC rules (no page because... eBook!). "An Independent Character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of unit coherency with it." Leaving a unit requires movement. If the Warboss isn't moving, he isn't the one leaving. He's being left.

Not legal. As you stated, an IC has to move out of coherency - not moving isn't moving.
The Big Mek can't leave his own unit and his move left his unit out of coherency. Either the Warboss has to move (anywhere - even half an inch forward and back would do so he doesn't move on the table) or the Big Mek has to move back to coherency.

Can you provide any sort of rule saying the Big Mek can't leave the unit? He's in A unit. He has general permission as an IC to leave A unit. Please provide a rules quote as I've done.

Because, for the life of me, I can't find any reason why he wouldn't be able to leave the unit.

 Kriswall wrote:
Can you provide any sort of rule saying the Big Mek can't leave the unit? He's in A unit. He has general permission as an IC to leave A unit. Please provide a rules quote as I've done.

Because, for the life of me, I can't find any reason why he wouldn't be able to leave the unit.

He tries to leave the Big Mek unit, this creates a Big Mek unit. Which he's leaving. Which creates one. But he's leaving that. Well then let's make one. BUT HE'S LEAVING IT. I KNOW THAT, SO LET'S CREATE THAT UNIT FOR HIM.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Can you provide any sort of rule saying the Big Mek can't leave the unit? He's in A unit. He has general permission as an IC to leave A unit. Please provide a rules quote as I've done.

Because, for the life of me, I can't find any reason why he wouldn't be able to leave the unit.

He tries to leave the Big Mek unit, this creates a Big Mek unit. Which he's leaving. Which creates one. But he's leaving that. Well then let's make one. BUT HE'S LEAVING IT. I KNOW THAT, SO LET'S CREATE THAT UNIT FOR HIM.

why can't two Big Mek units exist simultaneously?

So it would read: He tries to leave the first Big Mek unit, which creates a Big Mek unit. So now there are two Big Mek units. Hooray!

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Can you provide any sort of rule saying the Big Mek can't leave the unit? He's in A unit. He has general permission as an IC to leave A unit. Please provide a rules quote as I've done.

Because, for the life of me, I can't find any reason why he wouldn't be able to leave the unit.

He tries to leave the Big Mek unit, this creates a Big Mek unit. Which he's leaving. Which creates one. But he's leaving that. Well then let's make one. BUT HE'S LEAVING IT. I KNOW THAT, SO LET'S CREATE THAT UNIT FOR HIM.

why can't two Big Mek units exist simultaneously?

So it would read: He tries to leave the first Big Mek unit, which creates a Big Mek unit. So now there are two Big Mek units. Hooray!

So there's a Warboss as the only model in the Big Mek unit?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Can you provide any sort of rule saying the Big Mek can't leave the unit? He's in A unit. He has general permission as an IC to leave A unit. Please provide a rules quote as I've done.

Because, for the life of me, I can't find any reason why he wouldn't be able to leave the unit.

He tries to leave the Big Mek unit, this creates a Big Mek unit. Which he's leaving. Which creates one. But he's leaving that. Well then let's make one. BUT HE'S LEAVING IT. I KNOW THAT, SO LET'S CREATE THAT UNIT FOR HIM.

why can't two Big Mek units exist simultaneously?

So it would read: He tries to leave the first Big Mek unit, which creates a Big Mek unit. So now there are two Big Mek units. Hooray!

Except there is not a second Big Mek unit. There is a Big Mek unit composed of two Meks, and a Big Mek model who is not part of a unit (since he left his own unit). This provides some protection as you cannot target the Big Mek (since you can only target units). On the down side he cannot do anything except stand there, since you nominate units to move, and he is not in a unit.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Can you provide any sort of rule saying the Big Mek can't leave the unit? He's in A unit. He has general permission as an IC to leave A unit. Please provide a rules quote as I've done.

Because, for the life of me, I can't find any reason why he wouldn't be able to leave the unit.

He tries to leave the Big Mek unit, this creates a Big Mek unit. Which he's leaving. Which creates one. But he's leaving that. Well then let's make one. BUT HE'S LEAVING IT. I KNOW THAT, SO LET'S CREATE THAT UNIT FOR HIM.

I don't see the problem. Units don't really have names. That's something you're adding. It's simply a unit. The IC is a member of the Unit. He has permission to leave any Unit he is a member of by moving out of coherency with the Unit.

If we start with a Unit composed of a Big Mek and two 'Little' Meks and then have the Big Mek leave, we're left with two Units... a Unit composed of a Big Mek and a Unit composed of two 'Little Meks'. The rules don't provide names for these units. If you believe this is a thing, please provide a rules quote. As much as I enjoy your all caps screaming, it just makes it sound like you're confused but have no actual rules evidence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Can you provide any sort of rule saying the Big Mek can't leave the unit? He's in A unit. He has general permission as an IC to leave A unit. Please provide a rules quote as I've done.

Because, for the life of me, I can't find any reason why he wouldn't be able to leave the unit.

He tries to leave the Big Mek unit, this creates a Big Mek unit. Which he's leaving. Which creates one. But he's leaving that. Well then let's make one. BUT HE'S LEAVING IT. I KNOW THAT, SO LET'S CREATE THAT UNIT FOR HIM.

why can't two Big Mek units exist simultaneously?

So it would read: He tries to leave the first Big Mek unit, which creates a Big Mek unit. So now there are two Big Mek units. Hooray!

So there's a Warboss as the only model in the Big Mek unit?

Nope. The Warboss is an IC and would default back to a unit of just himself as soon as he's alone. If you feel the need to name things, he would become a "Warboss Unit". I suggest you review the rules for ICs. This is all pretty straightforward in the BRB.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Can you provide any sort of rule saying the Big Mek can't leave the unit? He's in A unit. He has general permission as an IC to leave A unit. Please provide a rules quote as I've done.

Because, for the life of me, I can't find any reason why he wouldn't be able to leave the unit.

He tries to leave the Big Mek unit, this creates a Big Mek unit. Which he's leaving. Which creates one. But he's leaving that. Well then let's make one. BUT HE'S LEAVING IT. I KNOW THAT, SO LET'S CREATE THAT UNIT FOR HIM.

why can't two Big Mek units exist simultaneously?

So it would read: He tries to leave the first Big Mek unit, which creates a Big Mek unit. So now there are two Big Mek units. Hooray!

Except there is not a second Big Mek unit. There is a Big Mek unit composed of two Meks, and a Big Mek model who is not part of a unit (since he left his own unit). This provides some protection as you cannot target the Big Mek (since you can only target units). On the down side he cannot do anything except stand there, since you nominate units to move, and he is not in a unit.

What does this even mean? If an IC leaves the unit he's with and is now alone he exists as a unit by himself. Of course you can target a lone Big Mek and move him, etc. I can't tell if you're being serious.

 Kriswall wrote:
I don't see the problem. Units don't really have names. That's something you're adding. It's simply a unit. The IC is a member of the Unit. He has permission to leave any Unit he is a member of by moving out of coherency with the Unit.

Out of coherency with what unit? He didn't join one, so it must be his unit. How can he move out of coherency with himself?

This is pretty clear in the BRB. I suggest you review the rules for ICs instead of pretending you have some comprehensive understanding that must be correct and talking down to people who correct you.

 Kriswall wrote:
I don't see the problem. Units don't really have names. That's something you're adding.

The codex says otherwise. Please see 'Forces of the Orks' where they describe the army list entries, specifically point 3:

3. Unit Name: Here you will find the name of the unit.

Units do have names.

 Kriswall wrote:
Units don't really have names. That's something you're adding. It's simply a unit. The IC is a member of the Unit. He has permission to leave any Unit he is a member of by moving out of coherency with the Unit.

Unit's don't have names?

You appear to be a Tau player so I'll use the Tau codex.

Please open your codex to the section entitled "Army of the Third Sphere" (page 94 if using the hardback). Then find the section titled "Army List Entries".

Right below that there should be a picture of a datasheet if you will or an Army List (which ever you would prefer to call it). Below that picture there is a description of what each part is.

Please tell me what Number 1 in the picture is called.

Note that the epub version updated for 7th edition has the "1" in the wrong location.

Units are made up of 1 or more models.

Although we as players assign names to our units for ease of communication, there are no such things as named units.

A Big Mek is a unit.

You may attach meks to any artillery or infantry unit.

If the big mek is infantry (ie no bike) you can attach meks to him. There is no limitation on how many.

A big mek and 2 meks is a unit. it is not a "big mek unit", it is just a unit.

The big mek by the RAW may leave the unit as an IC if it moves out of unit coherency by its move action.

Doing so would make the big mek a unit again, of just the big mek.

and would leave the remaining models behind in their own unit, which would be the two meks.

There is no restriction on an IC leaving a unit containing meks and having to take the meks with him, and the meks are obviously models with rules.

Units are made of models, not of named dataslates.

As such the models left behind have no requirement to go with the IC, and stay as their own unit.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
I don't see the problem. Units don't really have names. That's something you're adding. It's simply a unit. The IC is a member of the Unit. He has permission to leave any Unit he is a member of by moving out of coherency with the Unit.

Out of coherency with what unit? He didn't join one, so it must be his unit. How can he move out of coherency with himself?

This is pretty clear in the BRB. I suggest you review the rules for ICs instead of pretending you have some comprehensive understanding that must be correct and talking down to people who correct you.

Is the group of models consisting of the Big Mek and two little Meks a Unit? Is the Big Mek a member of that Unit? Can the Big Mek move such that he ends his movement more than 2" away from the two little Meks and therefore leave coherency with the other models in that Unit? I would answer yes to all three questions. I can find nothing in the rules indicating a no.

If you would answer no to any of these questions, I'd like to see your rule supported argument. I'm perfectly willing to admit I'm wrong if you can provide compelling evidence. If your intent is to keep saying that it's a Big Mek unit and the Big Mek can't leave a Big Mek unit but with no rules to support your position, then please label this as HIWPI.

And to answer your question, he is out of coherency with the unit that he was a part of. He didn't join one, but two other models did join him (the Meks), which resulted in him being in a Unit composed of three models. He's not moving out of coherency with himself. He's moving out of coherency with the rest of his Unit.

blaktoof wrote:
Although we as players assign names to our units for ease of communication, there are no such things as named units.

As shown in multiple posts above yours, this is an incorrect statement. Therefore any conclusion drawn from it cannot be correct.

blaktoof, as Ghaz and I have pointed out all units have names.

For example the unit "Commander Farsight" consists of a model called "Commander Farsight". Whereas the unit named "Fire Warrior Team" consists of 6 models called "Fire Warrior" (although you can add more, or change the composition).

 Ghaz wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
I don't see the problem. Units don't really have names. That's something you're adding.

The codex says otherwise. Please see 'Forces of the Orks' where they describe the army list entries, specifically point 3:

3. Unit Name: Here you will find the name of the unit.

Units do have names.

Granted. They have names. Doesn't change anything since the IC rules allow leaving A unit and not a specifically named unit.

 Kriswall wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
I don't see the problem. Units don't really have names. That's something you're adding. It's simply a unit. The IC is a member of the Unit. He has permission to leave any Unit he is a member of by moving out of coherency with the Unit.

Out of coherency with what unit? He didn't join one, so it must be his unit. How can he move out of coherency with himself?

This is pretty clear in the BRB. I suggest you review the rules for ICs instead of pretending you have some comprehensive understanding that must be correct and talking down to people who correct you.

Is the group of models consisting of the Big Mek and two little Meks a Unit? Is the Big Mek a member of that Unit? Can the Big Mek move such that he ends his movement more than 2" away from the two little Meks and therefore leave coherency with the other models in that Unit? I would answer yes to all three questions. I can find nothing in the rules indicating a no.

It's almost like we were discussing a completely different example.
OH WE WERE. Thanks. You provided an example, I was addressing that example.

And to answer your question, he is out of coherency with the unit that he was a part of. He didn't join one, but two other models did join him (the Meks), which resulted in him being in a Unit composed of three models. He's not moving out of coherency with himself. He's moving out of coherency with the rest of his Unit.

Please note that I was addressing your example with the Warboss. You are moving the goalposts.

So... given that Units have names...

Big Mek is deployed and two Meks join him. This is a Big Mek Unit.

Big Mek leaves the unit by moving out of coherency. We now have two Units. A Big Mek unit consisting of 2 Meks and a Big Mek unit consisting of a Big Mek.

Where is the problem? Can you not get past the concept that the rules allow for a Big Mek unit with no Big Meks in it?

Kriswall, I have a Big Mek. He is part of the unit called "Big Mek" (unless he joins another unit). Correct?
I attach a Mek (or two) the the unit named "Big Mek" which normally consists of "1 Big Mek". The Big Mek attempts to leave the unit. What is the name of the unit the Big Mek is in, and what is the name of the unit the Mek(s) are in? Where did this other unit come from? How does the Big Mek leave the Big Mek unit? In order to do so he must end his move more than 2" away from any member of the unit, which includes himself.

You're requiring the Big Mek to leave himself.

 Kriswall wrote:
So... given that Units have names...

Yay! You can admit you were wrong!

Big Mek is deployed and two Meks join him. This is a Big Mek Unit.

Big Mek leaves the unit by moving out of coherency. We now have two Units. A Big Mek unit consisting of 2 Meks and a Big Mek unit consisting of a Big Mek.

Where is the problem? Can you not get past the concept that the rules allow for a Big Mek unit with no Big Meks in it?

What unit is the Big Mek leaving? Oh - he's leaving his unit. Not the unit he joined - *his* unit.
Please explain how an IC leaves a unit he hasn't joined.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
I don't see the problem. Units don't really have names. That's something you're adding. It's simply a unit. The IC is a member of the Unit. He has permission to leave any Unit he is a member of by moving out of coherency with the Unit.

Out of coherency with what unit? He didn't join one, so it must be his unit. How can he move out of coherency with himself?

This is pretty clear in the BRB. I suggest you review the rules for ICs instead of pretending you have some comprehensive understanding that must be correct and talking down to people who correct you.

Is the group of models consisting of the Big Mek and two little Meks a Unit? Is the Big Mek a member of that Unit? Can the Big Mek move such that he ends his movement more than 2" away from the two little Meks and therefore leave coherency with the other models in that Unit? I would answer yes to all three questions. I can find nothing in the rules indicating a no.

It's almost like we were discussing a completely different example.
OH WE WERE. Thanks. You provided an example, I was addressing that example.

And to answer your question, he is out of coherency with the unit that he was a part of. He didn't join one, but two other models did join him (the Meks), which resulted in him being in a Unit composed of three models. He's not moving out of coherency with himself. He's moving out of coherency with the rest of his Unit.

Please note that I was addressing your example with the Warboss. You are moving the goalposts.

Ah... gotcha. Still, my answers remain valid. The Big Mek left the unit he was a part of (composed of the Big Mek and Warboss). This causes the Big Mek to form a new Big Mek unit and the old unit to become a Warboss Unit as it's now composed of a single Warboss. The Big Mek never moved out of coherency with himself, he moved out of coherency with a Unit that happens to share the same name.

rigeld2 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Although we as players assign names to our units for ease of communication, there are no such things as named units.

As shown in multiple posts above yours, this is an incorrect statement. Therefore any conclusion drawn from it cannot be correct.

Having reviewed the quoted page I agree.

However.

The unit is not the big meks unit, it is the meks unit.

Although the meks are assigned to the Big Mek during deployment, the Big mek is an IC and the meks are not. As such the Big mek is the one attached to the unit and counts as a member of the unit for all rules purposes, and in essence is a member of the mek unit once the game begins.

as such the Big mek has permission to leave the mek unit as per the rules for independent characters as normal.

a mek cannot leave the unit it is part of, but the big mek may. as such the meks are left in the mek unit.