Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
So... given that Units have names...

Yay! You can admit you were wrong!

Big Mek is deployed and two Meks join him. This is a Big Mek Unit.

Big Mek leaves the unit by moving out of coherency. We now have two Units. A Big Mek unit consisting of 2 Meks and a Big Mek unit consisting of a Big Mek.

Where is the problem? Can you not get past the concept that the rules allow for a Big Mek unit with no Big Meks in it?

What unit is the Big Mek leaving? Oh - he's leaving his unit. Not the unit he joined - *his* unit.
Please explain how an IC leaves a unit he hasn't joined.

Is it your contention that if I have a Unit composed of 20 Big Meks that only 19 of them can leave the unit? That the one initial Big Mek can't leave the Unit because he's somehow magically glued into it? Can you provide literally ANY rules quote to back this up.

An IC doesn't have to Join a unit to be able to Leave a unit. He just has to be IN a Unit to Leave it. This is what the rules say. I quoted them earlier in this thread.

Kriswall, how does an IC leave a unit?

 Happyjew wrote:
Kriswall, how does an IC leave a unit?

IC rules section... "An Independent Character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of coherency with it."

Please note that there is no other qualification on unit other than A unit. The IC just has to be in A unit to be able to leave it.

 Kriswall wrote:
Is it your contention that if I have a Unit composed of 20 Big Meks that only 19 of them can leave the unit? That the one initial Big Mek can't leave the Unit because he's somehow magically glued into it? Can you provide literally ANY rules quote to back this up.

Yes, that's what the rules say.

Now - read that carefully. There are multiple distinctions between the IC and the unit. In the case of the Warboss/20 BM unit there is no distinction - the last Big Mek is the unit. It's his unit. He never joined it or left his original unit.

An IC doesn't have to Join a unit to be able to Leave a unit. He just has to be IN a Unit to Leave it. This is what the rules say. I quoted them earlier in this thread.

Incorrect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blaktoof wrote:
The unit is not the big meks unit, it is the meks unit.

Although the meks are assigned to the Big Mek during deployment, the Big mek is an IC and the meks are not. As such the Big mek is the one attached to the unit and counts as a member of the unit for all rules purposes, and in essence is a member of the mek unit once the game begins.

as such the Big mek has permission to leave the mek unit as per the rules for independent characters as normal.

a mek cannot leave the unit it is part of, but the big mek may. as such the meks are left in the mek unit.

Incorrect. The Meks join the Infantry unit, as defined by their actual rule. Asserting otherwise would require a rule. Please provide one.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Kriswall, how does an IC leave a unit?

IC rules section... "An Independent Character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of coherency with it."

Please note that there is no other qualification on unit other than A unit. The IC just has to be in A unit to be able to leave it.

What does out of coherency mean?

So how does a Big Mek move out of coherency with himself? He's always going to be within 2" of himself.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Is it your contention that if I have a Unit composed of 20 Big Meks that only 19 of them can leave the unit? That the one initial Big Mek can't leave the Unit because he's somehow magically glued into it? Can you provide literally ANY rules quote to back this up.

Yes, that's what the rules say.

Spoiler:

An Independent Character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of unit coherency with it. ...

An Independent Character cannot leave a unit while either he or the unit is in Reserves, locked in combat, Falling Back or has Gone to Ground. He cannot join a unit that is in Reserves, locked in combat or Falling Back. If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase.[

Now - read that carefully. There are multiple distinctions between the IC and the unit. In the case of the Warboss/20 BM unit there is no distinction - the last Big Mek is the unit. It's his unit. He never joined it or left his original unit.

An IC doesn't have to Join a unit to be able to Leave a unit. He just has to be IN a Unit to Leave it. This is what the rules say. I quoted them earlier in this thread.

Incorrect.

The only restriction I see on not being able to leave a unit is that the he or the Unit can't be locked in combat, in reserves, falling back or gone to ground. I don't see that any of these things are the case in our example. Given that none of the 4 restrictions in the rules apply, what restriction are you using to prevent the Big Mek from leaving the unit he is a part of? Again, a rules quote would be nice.

And of course there is a difference between the IC and the Unit he's in. I don't think the Unit composed of the Big Mek and two Meks is a single IC model. That would be ridiculous.

Kriswall, what does "out of coherency" mean"

 Happyjew wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Kriswall, how does an IC leave a unit?

IC rules section... "An Independent Character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of coherency with it."

Please note that there is no other qualification on unit other than A unit. The IC just has to be in A unit to be able to leave it.

What does out of coherency mean?

Moving out of coherency means moving a model such that the model ends its movement more than 2" away from the rest of the models in the unit.

 Kriswall wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Is it your contention that if I have a Unit composed of 20 Big Meks that only 19 of them can leave the unit? That the one initial Big Mek can't leave the Unit because he's somehow magically glued into it? Can you provide literally ANY rules quote to back this up.

Yes, that's what the rules say.

Spoiler:

An Independent Character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of unit coherency with it. ...

An Independent Character cannot leave a unit while either he or the unit is in Reserves, locked in combat, Falling Back or has Gone to Ground. He cannot join a unit that is in Reserves, locked in combat or Falling Back. If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase.[

Now - read that carefully. There are multiple distinctions between the IC and the unit. In the case of the Warboss/20 BM unit there is no distinction - the last Big Mek is the unit. It's his unit. He never joined it or left his original unit.

An IC doesn't have to Join a unit to be able to Leave a unit. He just has to be IN a Unit to Leave it. This is what the rules say. I quoted them earlier in this thread.

Incorrect.

The only restriction I see on not being able to leave a unit is that the he or the Unit can't be locked in combat, in reserves, falling back or gone to ground. I don't see that any of these things are the case in our example. Given that none of the 4 restrictions in the rules apply, what restriction are you using to prevent the Big Mek from leaving the unit he is a part of? Again, a rules quote would be nice.

Pretending I haven't provided one is rude.
Please cite the rule saying an IC can leave himself. I'll wait. That's what you're attempting to do here and have provided zero rules support.

incorrect, the meks are "asigned" to the unit, nothing states they join the unit.

BigMek+Meks= Mek unit+IC

or

BigMek+Meks =IC+models?

The first has rules for how it works on the tabletop, the second doesn't.

Only one of the above has rules for how they are joined, and that is an IC joining a unit and being part of it for all purposes.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Kriswall, how does an IC leave a unit?

IC rules section... "An Independent Character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of coherency with it."

Please note that there is no other qualification on unit other than A unit. The IC just has to be in A unit to be able to leave it.

What does out of coherency mean?

Moving out of coherency means moving a model such that the model ends its movement more than 2" away from the rest of the models in the unit.

Which unit?

 Kriswall wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Kriswall, how does an IC leave a unit?

IC rules section... "An Independent Character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of coherency with it."

Please note that there is no other qualification on unit other than A unit. The IC just has to be in A unit to be able to leave it.

What does out of coherency mean?

Moving out of coherency means moving a model such that the model ends its movement more than 2" away from the rest of the models in the unit.

OK, so how do you move the Big Mek so he is more than 2" away from himself (in order to leave his unit)?

 Ghaz wrote:
So how does a Big Mek move out of coherency with himself? He's always going to be within 2" of himself.

He doesn't. He moves out of coherency with the two Big Meks... i.e., the other models in his Unit.

blaktoof wrote:
incorrect, the meks are "asigned" to the unit, nothing states they join the unit.

BigMek+Meks= Mek unit+IC

or

BigMek+Meks =IC+models?

The first has rules for how it works on the tabletop, the second doesn't.

Only one of the above has rules for how they are joined, and that is an IC joining a unit and being part of it for all purposes.

To follow your argument, cite the rules for "assigned to" in reference to a Boyz squad.

 Happyjew wrote:
Kriswall, what does "out of coherency" mean"

In what context? Generally speaking it means that a model is more than 2" away from the other models in its Unit. I've also already defined "moving out of coherency", which is what is in the rule.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Kriswall, what does "out of coherency" mean"

In what context? Generally speaking it means that a model is more than 2" away from the other models in its Unit. I've also already defined "moving out of coherency", which is what is in the rule.

I asked you earlier. You responded to rigeld, so I assumed you missed my question. So I asked again. You've already answered this question.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
So how does a Big Mek move out of coherency with himself? He's always going to be within 2" of himself.

He doesn't. He moves out of coherency with the two Big Meks... i.e., the other models in his Unit.

Which isn't correct.

It's a Big Mek unit. Agreed? (I hope so - you agreed previously)
The unit consists of a Big Mek that was joined by 2 Meks. Agreed? (again, you've said as much previously)
The Big Mek attempts to move away from the Big Mek unit. Agreed?
Since it's a Big Mek unit because of the Big Mek that is trying to leave how do you measure 2" from yourself to prove you've left coherency? You have to be out of coherency of every model in the unit and the Big Mek is indisputably part of the unit (since it is his unit).

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Is it your contention that if I have a Unit composed of 20 Big Meks that only 19 of them can leave the unit? That the one initial Big Mek can't leave the Unit because he's somehow magically glued into it? Can you provide literally ANY rules quote to back this up.

Yes, that's what the rules say.

Spoiler:

An Independent Character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of unit coherency with it. ...

An Independent Character cannot leave a unit while either he or the unit is in Reserves, locked in combat, Falling Back or has Gone to Ground. He cannot join a unit that is in Reserves, locked in combat or Falling Back. If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase.[

Now - read that carefully. There are multiple distinctions between the IC and the unit. In the case of the Warboss/20 BM unit there is no distinction - the last Big Mek is the unit. It's his unit. He never joined it or left his original unit.

An IC doesn't have to Join a unit to be able to Leave a unit. He just has to be IN a Unit to Leave it. This is what the rules say. I quoted them earlier in this thread.

Incorrect.

The only restriction I see on not being able to leave a unit is that the he or the Unit can't be locked in combat, in reserves, falling back or gone to ground. I don't see that any of these things are the case in our example. Given that none of the 4 restrictions in the rules apply, what restriction are you using to prevent the Big Mek from leaving the unit he is a part of? Again, a rules quote would be nice.

Pretending I haven't provided one is rude.
Please cite the rule saying an IC can leave himself. I'll wait. That's what you're attempting to do here and have provided zero rules support.

The Big Mek is leaving a UNIT composed of the Big Mek and two Meks by moving out of coherency with the other members of the UNIT. I'm not saying a Big Mek is leaving himself. You're saying that. I'm not saying a Big Mek is the same thing as the Unit composed of a Big Mek and two Meks. You're saying that. I can't provide rules quotes for something I don't believe the rules supports. You can't provide rules quotes for the same reason. You provided a quote showing me 4 restrictions on an IC leaving a unit. None apply to this situation. Please provide me with a relevant restriction.

 Kriswall wrote:
The Big Mek is leaving a UNIT composed of the Big Mek and two Meks by moving out of coherency with the other members of the UNIT. I'm not saying a Big Mek is leaving himself. You're saying that.

Except you are. As demonstrated.

I'm not saying a Big Mek is the same thing as the Unit composed of a Big Mek and two Meks. You're saying that.

Erm. No I'm not?

You provided a quote showing me 4 restrictions on an IC leaving a unit. None apply to this situation. Please provide me with a relevant restriction.

Incorrect. You've failed to actually read the rules I quoted and focused on those 4 things. Here, I'll emphasize important bits:

So we know that the IC and the unit it's leaving must be different, right?
Except in the case you're arguing for, the IC and the unit it's leaving are the same - the Big Mek's unit is the one he's trying to leave.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
So how does a Big Mek move out of coherency with himself? He's always going to be within 2" of himself.

He doesn't. He moves out of coherency with the two Big Meks... i.e., the other models in his Unit.

And where do the rules say that these Meks suddenly become Big Meks? You have one Big Mek in the unit.

I'm beginning to think you don't understand coherency. Let me quote the relevant rule form the Movement section under the Unit Coherency heading...

"So, once a unit has finished moving, the models in it must form an imaginary chain where the distance between one model and the next is no more than 2" horizontally and up to 6" vertically. We call this 'unit coherency'."

If I start with a Big Mek and two Meks in a unit, move them all and end up with a situation where the two Meks are within 2" of each other, but the Big Mek is 3" away... then the Big Mek has moved Out of Coherency with the rest of the Unit. I honestly don't know how else to explain this.

ICs leave a Unit. The Big Mek is in a Unit.
Leaving coherency involves moving such that you're more than 2" away from other models in the Unit. There are other models in the Unit, so moving out of coherency with them is no problem.

The Big Mek is the Big Mek. The Big Mek is not the Big Mek Unit. I feel like you think the Big Mek and the Big Mek Unit are the same thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
So how does a Big Mek move out of coherency with himself? He's always going to be within 2" of himself.

He doesn't. He moves out of coherency with the two Big Meks... i.e., the other models in his Unit.

And where do the rules say that these Meks suddenly become Big Meks? You have one Big Mek in the unit.

The rules don't say that. I don't think the rules say that. I think the rules say the Meks are part of a Big Mek unit. They started in that Unit and never left that Unit. Why in the world would you think they'd become Big Meks?

 Kriswall wrote:
I'm beginning to think you don't understand coherency. Let me quote the relevant rule form the Movement section under the Unit Coherency heading...

"So, once a unit has finished moving, the models in it must form an imaginary chain where the distance between one model and the next is no more than 2" horizontally and up to 6" vertically. We call this 'unit coherency'."

If I start with a Big Mek and two Meks in a unit, move them all and end up with a situation where the two Meks are within 2" of each other, but the Big Mek is 3" away... then the Big Mek has moved Out of Coherency with the rest of the Unit. I honestly don't know how else to explain this.

ICs leave a Unit. The Big Mek is in a Unit.
Leaving coherency involves moving such that you're more than 2" away from other models in the Unit. There are other models in the Unit, so moving out of coherency with them is no problem.

The Big Mek is the Big Mek. The Big Mek is not the Big Mek Unit. I feel like you think the Big Mek and the Big Mek Unit are the same thing.

So out of:

It's a Big Mek unit. Agreed? (I hope so - you agreed previously)
The unit consists of a Big Mek that was joined by 2 Meks. Agreed? (again, you've said as much previously)
The Big Mek attempts to move away from the Big Mek unit. Agreed?
Since it's a Big Mek unit because of the Big Mek that is trying to leave how do you measure 2" from yourself to prove you've left coherency? You have to be out of coherency of every model in the unit and the Big Mek is indisputably part of the unit (since it is his unit).

You disagree with step 3?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
The Big Mek is leaving a UNIT composed of the Big Mek and two Meks by moving out of coherency with the other members of the UNIT. I'm not saying a Big Mek is leaving himself. You're saying that.

Except you are. As demonstrated.

I'm not saying a Big Mek is the same thing as the Unit composed of a Big Mek and two Meks. You're saying that.

Erm. No I'm not?

You provided a quote showing me 4 restrictions on an IC leaving a unit. None apply to this situation. Please provide me with a relevant restriction.

Incorrect. You've failed to actually read the rules I quoted and focused on those 4 things. Here, I'll emphasize important bits:

Spoiler:

An Independent Character cannot leave a unit while either he or the unit is in Reserves, locked in combat, Falling Back or has Gone to Ground. He cannot join a unit that is in Reserves, locked in combat or Falling Back. If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase.

So we know that the IC and the unit it's leaving must be different, right?
Except in the case you're arguing for, the IC and the unit it's leaving are the same - the Big Mek's unit is the one he's trying to leave.

They're absolutely different things. We have an IC named BIG MEK. We have a unit named BIG MEK UNIT. BIG MEK UNIT has three members... BIG MEK, MEK and MEK. Neither BIG MEK nor BIG MEK UNIT are in reserves, locked in combat, falling back or gone to ground.

Why can't BIG MEK leave BIG MEK UNIT? We both agree that BIG MEK and BIG MEK UNIT aren't the same thing, so BIG MEK isn't leaving himself, he's leaving BIG MEK UNIT.

Of which, he's a "founding member". Agreed? In other words, it's a Big Mek unit because of him.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
I'm beginning to think you don't understand coherency. Let me quote the relevant rule form the Movement section under the Unit Coherency heading...

"So, once a unit has finished moving, the models in it must form an imaginary chain where the distance between one model and the next is no more than 2" horizontally and up to 6" vertically. We call this 'unit coherency'."

If I start with a Big Mek and two Meks in a unit, move them all and end up with a situation where the two Meks are within 2" of each other, but the Big Mek is 3" away... then the Big Mek has moved Out of Coherency with the rest of the Unit. I honestly don't know how else to explain this.

ICs leave a Unit. The Big Mek is in a Unit.
Leaving coherency involves moving such that you're more than 2" away from other models in the Unit. There are other models in the Unit, so moving out of coherency with them is no problem.

The Big Mek is the Big Mek. The Big Mek is not the Big Mek Unit. I feel like you think the Big Mek and the Big Mek Unit are the same thing.

So out of:

It's a Big Mek unit. Agreed? (I hope so - you agreed previously)
The unit consists of a Big Mek that was joined by 2 Meks. Agreed? (again, you've said as much previously)
The Big Mek attempts to move away from the Big Mek unit. Agreed?
Since it's a Big Mek unit because of the Big Mek that is trying to leave how do you measure 2" from yourself to prove you've left coherency? You have to be out of coherency of every model in the unit and the Big Mek is indisputably part of the unit (since it is his unit).

You disagree with step 3?

I disagree with your understanding of moving out of coherency. Moving out of coherency of a unit involves ending your movement more than 2" away from the other models in the unit. The Big Mek needs to end his movement more than 2" away from the other models in the unit (the two Meks) to successfully leave the Big Mek unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
Of which, he's a "founding member". Agreed? In other words, it's a Big Mek unit because of him.

Irrelevant? If you believe otherwise, please provide a rules quote. The rules simply specify how to leave a unit and that you can't leave a unit if one of 4 restrictions are in place. There is no other restriction on the type of unit you can leave.

So you're not going to actually try and address my argument, but talk about things that aren't relevant to my position?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kriswall wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Of which, he's a "founding member". Agreed? In other words, it's a Big Mek unit because of him.

Irrelevant? If you believe otherwise, please provide a rules quote. The rules simply specify how to leave a unit and that you can't leave a unit if one of 4 restrictions are in place. There is no other restriction on the type of unit you can leave.

It's not irrelevant. I'm attempting (apparently futilely) to step you through the thought process since you haven't been able to grasp it so far.

It's because the Big Mek and and the other Meks are a single unit due to the way the Meks are added to the Big Mek pre-game. Almost any other unit joined by an IC is still two units, but you're trying to make one unit into two. What are the rules that allow you to do so?

rigeld2 wrote:
So you're not going to actually try and address my argument, but talk about things that aren't relevant to my position?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kriswall wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Of which, he's a "founding member". Agreed? In other words, it's a Big Mek unit because of him.

Irrelevant? If you believe otherwise, please provide a rules quote. The rules simply specify how to leave a unit and that you can't leave a unit if one of 4 restrictions are in place. There is no other restriction on the type of unit you can leave.

It's not irrelevant. I'm attempting (apparently futilely) to step you through the thought process since you haven't been able to grasp it so far.

I don't need you to step me through your thought process. I need you to provide a rules quote saying that an IC can't leave a unit where he was the initial member. I can't find that in the rules and you haven't provided a rules quote.

You've provided a rules quote showing that the IC and the Unit aren't the same thing. I agree with you on this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghaz wrote:
It's because the Big Mek and and the other Meks are a single unit due to the way the Meks are added to the Big Mek pre-game. Almost any other unit joined by an IC is still two units, but you're trying to make one unit into two. What are the rules that allow you to do so?

Any other unit joined by an IC is a single unit, because the IC is considered to be a part of that unit for all rules purposes. If he chooses to leave, then he becomes a unit by himself again after leaving coherency.

One unit becomes two units when an IC leave a unit. The unit he left is still a unit and he becomes a unit himself. This is IC 101 stuff.

And perhaps you can provide a rules quote that allows you to make two units out of one just because one of them is an IC. The rules don't support it. When an IC leaves a unit, they go back to their two original units. They don't create a new unit that never existed.