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The tabletop is the ONLY thing that counts to me. The fluff in 2nd ed had Marneus Calgar taking on Hive Tyrants, whereas in game, he couldn't even land a hit on one. Laughable.

Martel732 wrote:
I already said the fluff Astartes win, but I don't consider those the legitimate Astartes. I consider the tabletop Astartes the real ones, because I have spent many more hours playing than reading GW's awful fiction. The tabletop Astartes lose to practically any other sci-fi army because they are awful.

Dude, we are comparing fluff Space Marines vs fluff Starcraft Marines vs fluff Halo.

The problem with fluff, just like in a versus comic book is that the winner is whomever the author favors. If I'm writing the story, I just throw other authors' ideas about Astartes out, and make up whatever I like.

Martel732 wrote:
The tabletop is the ONLY thing that counts to me. The fluff in 2nd ed had Marneus Calgar taking on Hive Tyrants, whereas in game, he couldn't even land a hit on one. Laughable.

Ummm Calgar also killed an Avatar of Khaine in 5th edition. And he also took out a few demons in 5th and 4th edition.

Calgar in 4th edition and 5th edition on the tabletop he could go toe to toe with an Avatar of Khaine and a Hive Tyrant.

Its quite interesting really that you say that. Yet you continue to post on this thread.

Martel732 wrote:
The problem with fluff, just like in a versus comic book is that the winner is whomever the author favors. If I'm writing the story, I just throw other authors' ideas about Astartes out, and make up whatever I like.

Well. Sadly that is where things happen. Its called plot armor and plot convenience.

It happens and we can see that in most books. Except that doesn't happen. Good writers know how to kill characters and when not to. Because thats how stories are written.

We have knights in certain books being cut down by a small child. And other books a knight kills a dragon and kills an entire army by himself.

See the thing is that contradictions happen all the time in fiction.

Yeah, because they changed the rules. Whereas Calgar has gotten better since 2nd, the average marine has gotten worse and worse since 3rd.

The problem is that really dislike retro-future or gothic or whatever you want to call it settings. I find all the participants in the 40K universe to be incredibly dim-witted and generally boring.

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, because they changed the rules. Whereas Calgar has gotten better since 2nd, the average marine has gotten worse and worse since 3rd.

The problem is that really dislike retro-future or gothic or whatever you want to call it settings. I find all the participants in the 40K universe to be incredibly dim-witted and generally boring.

Ummm 5th edition marines were extremely strong. Same with 4th edition. 4th Edition Marines were so powerful that could sometimes not even lose one.

You know how? Feel No Pain. Think about necrons except with space marine stat lines and having a reroll on every single save.

Space marines in 4th and 5th were just stupidly powerful.

Thats how I know when someone is making their stuff up.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, because they changed the rules. Whereas Calgar has gotten better since 2nd, the average marine has gotten worse and worse since 3rd.

The problem is that really dislike retro-future or gothic or whatever you want to call it settings. I find all the participants in the 40K universe to be incredibly dim-witted and generally boring.

Ummm 5th edition marines were extremely strong. Same with 4th edition. 4th Edition Marines were so powerful that could sometimes not even lose one.

You know how? Feel No Pain. Think about necrons except with space marine stat lines and having a reroll on every single save.

Space marines in 4th and 5th were just stupidly powerful.

Thats how I know when someone is making their stuff up.

I don't know about 4th, but in 5th, the actual marines themselves were a bad joke. They were just life support systems to get razorbacks. I had army-wide FNP in 5th with BA and it wasn't that impressive.

And I'm pretty such the current Calgar could take on the Avatar and a Hive Tyrant.

He has 5 wounds IIRC, 4+ invuln, Eternal Warrior, and 6(?) power fist attacks.

 Grey Templar wrote:
And I'm pretty such the current Calgar could take on the Avatar and a Hive Tyrant.

He has 5 wounds IIRC, 4+ invuln, Eternal Warrior, and 6(?) power fist attacks.

Yep sounds about right.

Infact a Hive tyrant and tyranids in general are a joke.

 Grey Templar wrote:
And I'm pretty such the current Calgar could take on the Avatar and a Hive Tyrant.

He has 5 wounds IIRC, 4+ invuln, Eternal Warrior, and 6(?) power fist attacks.

I covered that above. Calgar got better, but marines as a troop have gotten worse every edition since 3rd.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
And I'm pretty such the current Calgar could take on the Avatar and a Hive Tyrant.

He has 5 wounds IIRC, 4+ invuln, Eternal Warrior, and 6(?) power fist attacks.

Yep sounds about right.

Infact a Hive tyrant and tyranids in general are a joke.

In melee anyway. Flyrants with double bug guns are fearsome.

4 wounds, not 5.

5 power first attacks, not 6.

Unforunately, Calgar still fears death by 100 lasguns, just like every other low toughness model. Not very fluffy, that problem.

 Ashiraya wrote:
4 wounds, not 5.

5 power first attacks, not 6.

I stand corrected.

Point still stands, he'll punch a Tyrant out no problem.

The ability for SPARTANS to win depends on their weaponry, as UNSC weapons are vastly less powerful then bolters and Imperial tech.

The ignorance in this thread in regards to Halo and Starcraft is soul-crushing though, if not unexpected

Spartans have displayed superior durability feats to Marines.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The ability for SPARTANS to win depends on their weaponry, as UNSC weapons are vastly less powerful then bolters and Imperial tech.

The ignorance in this thread in regards to Halo and Starcraft is soul-crushing, if not unexpected

Spartans have displayed superior durability feats to Marines.

Hey, I'm not the Astartes fan boy here. I think the Space Marines are the short-bus of sci-fi armies.

Martel732 wrote:
Unforunately, Calgar still fears death by 100 lasguns, just like every other low toughness model. Not very fluffy, that problem.

Doing the math calgar has a 90% chance to survive a hundred lasgun shots.

Oh,I'm sure it's not everyone- just a select few.

I almost cried at "legendary is the canon difficulty". Why enter a debate about a universe you don't have knowledge of?

 Asherian Command wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Unforunately, Calgar still fears death by 100 lasguns, just like every other low toughness model. Not very fluffy, that problem.

Doing the math calgar has a 90% chance to survive a hundred lasgun shots.

Okay, then a real guard list: 30 plasmas. You get the point.

The statistical average from 100 lasguns in rapid fire range with no orders is 5.28 wounds. That means there is at least a 70% chance he will die.

Martel732 wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Unforunately, Calgar still fears death by 100 lasguns, just like every other low toughness model. Not very fluffy, that problem.

Doing the math calgar has a 90% chance to survive a hundred lasgun shots.

Okay, then a real guard list: 30 plasmas. You get the point.

AP2

30 plasmas

15% chance survival, not auto kill though. Though rarely do actually run a Calgar by himself. So Honor guard have two wounds each and will get in the way to help him survive. So

Survival increased to 66%

]The statistical average from 100 lasguns in rapid fire range with no orders is 5.28 wounds. That means there is at least a 70% chance he will die.

Statistically he has a 85% chance of survival. AS you have to include his reroll, and his save is a +2. Lasguns do not have an ap of 1 or 2 they have ap 5.

As far as Calgar vs. the Avatar, statistically the Avatar will beat Calgar with two wounds remaining.

They both do ~1 wound to each other per round, but the Avatar goes first so he'll tap out Calgar first.

How unfluffy.

Honour Guard have one wound.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Honour Guard have one wound.

They changed that? What idiot decided to make Honor guard worse?

As far as Calgar vs. the Avatar, statistically the Avatar will beat Calgar with two wounds remaining.

They both do 1.4 wounds to each other, but the Avatar goes first so he'll tap out Calgar first.

Doesn't Calgar have a power sword?

It was like that in the last codex too.

 Ashiraya wrote:
It was like that in the last codex too.

I thought the champion had two wounds.

 Asherian Command wrote:


Doesn't Calgar have a power sword?

He does, but it's worse. Reduced chance to wound, reduced attacks, and the Avatar is I10 anyway so the initiative won't matter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
It was like that in the last codex too.

I thought the champion had two wounds.

Nope, one.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:


Doesn't Calgar have a power sword?

He does, but it's worse. Reduced chance to wound, reduced attacks, and the Avatar is I10 anyway so the initiative won't matter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
It was like that in the last codex too.

I thought the champion had two wounds.

Nope, one.

I must be thinking fourth edition rules then.

Your view of how marines work in general seems to be stuck in 4th ed as well. There are entire threads about how bad tactical marines, terminators, and boltguns are for the points.

Martel732 wrote:
Your view of how marines work in general seems to be stuck in 4th ed as well. There are entire threads about how bad tactical marines, terminators, and boltguns are for the points.

Well terminators in general have never been good even in 4th and 5th.

Tactical marines are not as good as stern guard. Infact sternguard spam was very regular in 5th edition.

In 4th edition I rarely used tactical marines. As I often used sternguard and vanguard to do more damage than tactical marines.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I already said the fluff Astartes win, but I don't consider those the legitimate Astartes. I consider the tabletop Astartes the real ones, because I have spent many more hours playing than reading GW's awful fiction. The tabletop Astartes lose to practically any other sci-fi army because they are awful.

Dude, we are comparing fluff Space Marines vs fluff Starcraft Marines vs fluff Halo.

Well, if we're going on fluff: i saw an anthology movie set in the halo universe, where a clumsy spartan fell out of low orbit (repeatedly) onto a planet, took minimal (if any) damage and was able to complete his mission (with the help of a small child iirc). So, if game mechanics are out, there's the new benchmark.