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Grimm Resolve becomes Stubborn

Monster Slayer of Caliban
- Costs 5 points less
Shroud of Hereos
- Costs 10 Points less
Azreal
- Cost 5 points Cheaper, gains Eternal Warrior and becomes a Lord of War
Asmodai
- Costs 5 points cheaper
Belial
- Costs 15 Points Cheaper, no longer makes Deathwing troops
Samuel
- Costs 15 Points Cheaper, no longer makes Ravenwing troops
Company Master
- Perfideous Relic of the Unforgiven - 10 (Cost 5 points cheaper to be in line with Deathwing knights)
- Terminator armour, storm bolter and power Sword (Cost 10 points cheaper to be inline with Codex Spaces Marines)
Librarian
- Psyker Mastery Level 2 (cost 10 points cheaper to be inline with Codex Space Marines)
Command Squad
- Storm Shields (cost 5 points cheaper to be inline with Codex Space Marines)
Deathwing Command Squad
- Drop 1 points a model
- Apothecary with narthecium (Cost 5 points cheaper)
Ravenwing Command Squad
- Apothecary with narthecium (Cost 5 points cheaper)
Scout Squad
- Drop 1 Point a model and buy sniper rifles back as normal, to be inline with Codex Space Marines
Deathwing Terminator Squad
- Drop 1 points a model
Deathwing Knight Squad
- Drop 1 points a model
Ravenwing Attack Squadron
- Drop 2 points a model
Ravenwing Black Knights
- Drop 2 points a model
Nephilim Jetfighter
- Drop 20 points
Ravenwing Dark Talon
- Drop 20 points
Land Raiders
- Deathwing Vehicle drop 10 Points
Land Raider Redeemer
- Drop 5 points to be inline with Codex space marines
Land Speeder Vengeance
- Drop 20 points

These changes are what i could think of from looking through the space marine and space wolf codex's, do any seem unreasonable or are there any recommendations?

id change a lot of things but it mainly comes down to points drops, statline changes on select underpowered units (especially in our fast attack and heavy support slots) and we need to rework terminatos entirely. they need to go totally back to the drawing board on terminators and they need a lot more help than a simpe codex re-wire could offer.

the dark angels codex from a competitive standpoint is utter rubbish devoid of anything good at all and while it might be consistently bad its hard to praise it for its consistency (unlike the BA codex or the ork codex) when their the bottom of the totem pole to begin with.

I'm not debating if there should be points drops across the board, but what are your justifications for the numbers?

The dark angel codex is severly over costed, which makes it bad competively, the point drops i noted are for those that are over costed and the point drops make them more usable.

Yes, but the phrase 'over costed' means that you feel your units are more expensive points wise than a roughly equivalent unit in a seperate codex (or within the same codex); or, conversely, that a unit which costs the same number of points in another codex is dramatically more powerful, so your units should be cheaper (or more powerful).

My point basically is, while I don't disagree that the codex might be overcosted, do you happen to have any arguments for these price drops? Ie name a unit which fills a similar role and is lower in points, so that we can understand your logic.

Ok, A landspeeder vengeance is 40 points more expensive then two armoured sentinels with plasma cannons, white scar bikers are 6 points cheaper then ravenwing, space wolfs blood angels and chaos space marines dont have to pay for powerfists while deathwing do, a nephilim is 10 points more expensive then a vendetta, a Valkeyrie with rock pods is 35 points cheaper then a dark talon etc.

 Vespid wrote:
Ok, A landspeeder vengeance is 40 points more expensive then two armoured sentinels with plasma cannons, white scar bikers are 6 points cheaper then ravenwing, space wolfs blood angels and chaos space marines dont have to pay for powerfists while deathwing do, a nephilim is 10 points more expensive then a vendetta, a Valkeyrie with rock pods is 35 points cheaper then a dark talon etc.

I'll address all of these when I can, but first off I don't see Deathwing paying for Power fists. SM termie squad: 200 pts. DW termies: 220 pts. Difference-split fire, deathwing assault and Vengeful strike on DW termies.

I was saying chaos space wolf and blood angels terminators start off cheaper as they start with power weapons by default and can buy power fists back, while deathwing start with powerfists which makes their base cost higher. Codex space marines has the same problem, also are all those special rules really worth an extra 20 points for a 5 man squad. space wolf grey hunters pay 1 point more for splite fire then Devastators, though deathwing assault and vengeful strike would be worth some points, it should also be taken into account that they are part of our chapter tactics so they shouldn't be to expensive, so 1 point each for each of those rules, making them 1 point cheaper a model.

 Vespid wrote:
I was saying chaos space wolf and blood angels terminators start off cheaper as they start with power weapons by default and can buy power fists back, while deathwing start with powerfists which makes their base cost higher. Codex space marines has the same problem, also are all those special rules really worth an extra 20 points for a 5 man squad. space wolf grey hunters pay 1 point more for splite fire then Devastators, though deathwing assault and vengeful strike would be worth some points, it should also be taken into account that they are part of our chapter tactics so they shouldn't be to expensive, so 1 point each for each of those rules, making them 1 point cheaper a model.

True, but lets look at upgrades to Termies, which one would almost always take:
5 Man squad of DW= 220 pts base
If we total up 5 of the same upgrade (probably would vary them, but for a simple argument here we'll assume everyone takes the same)
+TH/SS=245, +Chainfist=245 pts +Lightning claws 220 pts

5 Man SW Termies=165
+TH/SS=225 pts, +Chainfist 240 pts. +power fist (for comparison)=215 pts,

Flamer, assault cannon and CML cost the same, DW have the option for plasma cannons which SW do not have.

Let's be clear-point costs are not based on what you do accomplish with a unit, they are based around what you can accomplish with a unit. In terms of equivalent base cost, you are paying 1pt more per model of DW termies against a squad of SW termies which have the same kit; this 1 pt covers the cost of split fire with any of the ranged weapons you carry. Yes, it would be nice if all terminator squads started out with power weapons and could be bumped up to power fists, thereby having lower base costs, but generally speaking the costs will be about the same because you will be upgrading all of them above their base weapons to begin with.

In the case of grey hunters vs long fangs, your argument is a common one, but is flawed, as these two units are not truly equivalent. Yes, the ppm cost is 1pt different, but the weapons loadout options are very different-ie, split fire will basically only be used with heavy weapons in this case.

Chaos Terminators - 185 (37)
- 5 Chaos Terminators
- 4 Power Fists

Wolf Guard Terminators - 205 (41)
- 5 Wolf Guard Terminators
- 4 Power Fists

Terminator Squad - 200 (40)
- 5 Terminators

Deathwing Terminator Squad - 220 (44)
- 5 Deathwing Terminators

Blood Angels can take heavy flamers in their tactical squads so thats not really a point

Its still 3 Points differance as you dont put a fist on a sergeant, and against chaos there is a 7 point difference, also you probably wouldnt take a fist on the special weapon guy as your investing to many points into a single wound model

And i was comparing long fang and devastator cost differance for split fire, as they are equivalent units

Biggest point is Deathwing Terminators. Start them at 33-35 with power swords, change the Terminator armour Inv to 4+, and give them two heavy weapons per five (which are changes that should be implemented across the board in all Terminators) and they'd be much more useful without getting silly.

Beyond that I really, really want the Nephilim to actually work, make the mega-bolter and the missiles S7 and drop it to about 140-150pts and we're in business.

What do you think about dakka banner + landraider combo? I think it should get nerfed.

Yep and Nephilim - cool model, wanky rules. Needs appropriate point cost to get some field time.

Make the landspeeder vengeance and dark talon useful, imrpove the nephillim better and beef up Deathwing termies. Apart from that, nothing. I personally think the Dark Angels' Codex is one of the best codices at the moment, there's nothing too powerful to be an auto-include and it's nice and balanced.

How about dakka banner + 10 points, and power field generator +5 points, that would nerf those two combos abit but still make them usable.

I mean it probably shouldn't affect vehicles.

 koooaei wrote:
I mean it probably shouldn't affect vehicles.

Agreed. It may count as three twin-linked bolters, but it isn't. It's a hurricane bolter. I'm not arguing in a sense of "I wouldn't play you if you did this" but it really shouldn't apply. Vehicles don't wave flags about.

To be honest, what I'd have liked to see on the Nephilim is the original version of the rules where the Blackshards had a blast marker of some kind - I assume they did, anyway, as that'll be why it has (had) missile lock. It looks like and plays like a stuka - stop trying to make it a dogfighter and go with the role....

Blood Angel and Codex terminators all have power fists by default. The only ones starting with power swords are Grey Knights, Wolves, and Chaos.

Why you wanna remove pure Deathwing and pure Ravenwing, with the changes to Belial and Sammael?

Would happily trade Vehicle mounted Hurr bolters working on Dev standards if Storm bolters worked with the Dev standard instead...

But that would remove just about the only pro of picking a crusader or dark talon, so point reduction or?

 koooaei wrote:
What do you think about dakka banner + landraider combo? I think it should get nerfed.

Short answer is FAQ the Dakkapole so it doesn't work when you're in a transport, if it's available to be sniped out of the squad that trick is less useful.

And 250pts for six bolters, even with the Dakkapole, isn't actually particularly powerful.

If the Dakka Banner worked on Storm Bolters that would fix a lot of issues.

As for the LRC and the Dakka Banner...I could go either way on that.

I feel like buffing bolters is a hollow advantage anyway.

I don want pure deathwing or ravenwing to go, but if the new codexs tell us anything its that there will not be any slot changing units whenever the new codex comes out. So we will have to go unbound,get a fancy detachment or deathwing and ravenwing detachments, to play them pure.

 Vespid wrote:
I don want pure deathwing or ravenwing to go, but if the new codexs tell us anything its that there will not be any slot changing units whenever the new codex comes out. So we will have to go unbound,get a fancy detachment or deathwing and ravenwing detachments, to play them pure.

That is how I think it will be.
Deathwing: 1 HQ, 2 Elite and must be all be in Terminator Armor with some sort of 1st Turn entry Rule.
Ravenwing: 1 HQ, 2 Fast Attack, all must be on Bikes or Skimmers.

I also see Azerial become a Lord of War, but not much changes.
I would like to see Belial be able to take his Sword with the Storm Shield, but that is wish listing.

Deathwing
2 HQ
3 Troop
6 Elite
3 Fast Attack
3 Heavy Support

Compulsory 1 HQ and 2 Elite
Rule: First turn deathstrike for terminators

Ravening
2 HQ
3 Troop
3 Elite
6 Fast Attack
3 Heavy Support
Compulsory 1 HQ and 2 Fast Attack
Special Rule; Skilled Rider

Anpu42: your ravenwing detachment with the resctrictions wouldn't be able to take dark shourds or Nephilim which are ravenwing units

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Biggest point is Deathwing Terminators. Start them at 33-35 with power swords, change the Terminator armour Inv to 4+, and give them two heavy weapons per five (which are changes that should be implemented across the board in all Terminators) and they'd be much more useful without getting silly.

Beyond that I really, really want the Nephilim to actually work, make the mega-bolter and the missiles S7 and drop it to about 140-150pts and we're in business.

This, absolutely this.

DWK need tweaked, maybe just points. They do come with a few special bonuses, but for what you pay it's still steep. I'm cautiously optimistic for the rumored codex but I'm not holding my breath. I


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vespid wrote:
I don want pure deathwing or ravenwing to go, but if the new codexs tell us anything its that there will not be any slot changing units whenever the new codex comes out. So we will have to go unbound,get a fancy detachment or deathwing and ravenwing detachments, to play them pure.

I think you hit the bullseye. I see formations for ravenwing and deathwing.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Deathwing: 1 HQ, 2 Elite and must be all be in Terminator Armor with some sort of 1st Turn entry Rule.
Ravenwing: 1 HQ, 2 Fast Attack, all must be on Bikes or Skimmers.

Seeing current formations released after orks and gk, it's more likely to be 6 Elite/FA. And another formation with >10

Well I have though more on this and this is what I would expect after looking at the last few Codex's.

Lord of War:
AZRAEL: One Warlord Trait Chosen, one Warlord Trait Radom
HQs:
EZEKIEL: Price Adjustment
ASMODAI: Price Adjustment
BELIAL: Price Adjustment
SAMMAEL: Price Adjustment and his Land Speeder immune to Penetrating Hits like Logan. Maybe a new Model, maybe
COMPANY MASTER: Price Adjustment
INTERROGATOR-CHAPLAIN Price Adjustment, New Model?
CHAPLAIN: Price Adjustment
LIBRARIAN: Price Adjustment
TECH MARINE: Price Adjustment
Troops:
TACTICAL SQUAD: Price Adjustment, New Models?
SCOUT SQUAD: Price Adjustment (or returned to their 5th Edition Ability's and moved to the will be overcrowded Elite Section.)
DEATHWING TERMINATOR SQUAD: No real changes (Though this is only if they don't do a Special Deathwing Detachment/Formation)
RAVENWING ATTACK SQUADRON: No real changes (Though this is only if they don't do a Special Ravenwing Detachment/Formation)
Elite:
COMMAND SQUAD: No real changes
DEATHWING COMMAND SQUAD: No real changes
RAVENWING COMMAND SQUAD: No real changes (Though this is only if they don't do a Special Ravenwing Detachment/Formation)
COMPANY VETERANS SQUAD: Price Adjustment
DEATHWING KNIGHTS: No real changes
DREADNOUGHT: Price Adjustment + Deathwing Options
Fast Attack
RHINO
RAZORBACK
DROP POD
RAVENWING SUPPORT SQUADRON
RAVENWING BLACK KNIGHTS
RAVENWING DARKSHROUD: Either some Rules Adjustment or Price Drop
ASSAULT SQUAD: Some Price adjustments
NEPHILIM JETFIGHTER: Either some Rules Adjustment or Price Drop
RAVENWING DARK TALON: Either Major Rules Adjustment or Price Drop
LAND SPEEDER VENGEANCE: Either some Rules Adjustment or Price Drop
Heavy Support
DEVASTATOR SQUAD: Some Price Adjustments
PREDATOR: No real changes
WHIRLWIND: No real changes
VINDICATOR: No real changes
LAND RAIDER: No real changes
LAND RAIDER CRUSADER: No real changes
LAND RAIDER REDEEMER: No real changes

As for the Wargear I see some minor rule changes and price adjustments
Power Field Generator: Will not work on Vehicles or become a Relic.

be careful with price adjustments. Allready overpriced for 6-th 7-th standards units like kanz and burnas actually got more expensive
Though, it's easier with DA as there are plenty of other marine dexes to compare.

For one thing, the Nephilim Jetfighter should have the proper STR6 AP3 7 shot Avenger Mega Bolter, not the STR6 AP4 5 shot, same as the Fire Raptor. Also, cut the cost by at least 20 pts, if not 40 pts. It should cost around the same as the TLLC Storm Talon, since it is stuck with the stupid heavy bolter, while the Storm Talon gets an assault cannon. The Dark Talon could stand to get a boost, either by cutting the points by about 20, or increasing the strength of its weapons. Don't know how that is going to work.

One of the ideas i had is that they should probably upgrade fhe nephilims missiles to strom strikemissiles

 Vespid wrote:
One of the ideas i had is that they should probably upgrade fhe nephilims missiles to strom strikemissiles

Skeptical about sticking six S8 missiles on a Storm Talon chassis when a Stormraven only carries four. S7 on the bolter and the missiles would let them engage other Flyers credibly without needing to go overboard.