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Well the Cop killing's and attempts to kill cops are not helping the "movement".

Shame. The cops killing a disproportionate number of black citizens is also not helping things too much.

I think protesting is a cherished American tradition and many of these people have wholly reasonable concerns about the way they are policed.

That being said, in my opinion it's equally inappropriate to have a political protest at a gathering honoring a veteran as it is to turn your back on a mayor at a funeral. It's equal parts classless, and YoureNotHelping.jpg... No matter how justified your concerns are, neither one of these events are about you.

That's a fair point Ouze.

But often, non-provocative protests are simply ignored.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
*shakes head and leaves thread*

Hey... I'm living near the epicenter of this "movement". Forgive me if my views are slanted.

Epicenter...slanted..I see what you did there!

Interesting that in the NY case, the officer in charge was an African American woman.

Is there bias? Of course. Derp! You want to get support though, make it the larger discussion of the police trend to militarization/occupation tactics since the start to the War on Drugs (har har) in the 1980s.

Why though? I mean, yeah the militarisation thing is an issue, but is a systematic bias(and there is one) against a certain ethnic group that has resulted in several questionably-justified deaths at the hands of police and a near total breakdown of the relationship between the police and that ethnic group somehow not serious enough of an issue on its own? Frankly the whole "it should be about wider issues" argument seems calculated to sweep the racial element of the problem under the rug because it makes too many white Americans uncomfortable; but they SHOULD feel uncomfortable.

Its a false narrative. There has been lots of discussion about increasingly harsh police tactics and suspect killings. Interstingly, a lot more of it is on the right wing foam at the mouth spectrum of the community.

Saying its just an African thing is frankly, a lie.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Da Boss wrote:
Shame. The cops killing a disproportionate number of black citizens is also not helping things too much.

Its not though.

Compare it to the arrest rate and rate of cops murdered by Afircan Americans. Its not perfect, but its a similar corollary.

Personally, I think we have to look at protesting in 2015 very differently than we looked at it in 1960, with the proliferation of information via the internet and social media.

It's a completely different world. People aren't blind to these issues any more like they may have been in 1960, not even remotely. With that in mind, I don't think these kinds of protests help any of these causes, especially when they label them with a particular race. If they really wanted to bring non-blacks into the cause, they wouldn't create such a division along racial lines like they do with the brunch. I don't think with this particular one, they have any interesting in bringing people together.

This "black brunch" had a sole purpose of "disrupting whites." What purpose does that solve. How do you get other whites on board with that? I can get on board with with #blacklivesmatter because they absolutely do. But this "protest" may have just been called #disruptwhitey as much as it was #blackbrunch.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Da Boss wrote:
Shame. The cops killing a disproportionate number of black citizens is also not helping things too much.

What a lot of the media likes to leave out when they spout these numbers is how many of them are killed while armed or in firefights with the police. Kinda an important piece of information, don't you think?

 cincydooley wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Da Boss wrote:
Shame. The cops killing a disproportionate number of black citizens is also not helping things too much.

What a lot of the media likes to leave out when they spout these numbers is how many of them are killed while armed or in firefights with the police. Kinda an important piece of information, don't you think?

That plus the high proportions of the black population who is involved with crime.

Black's aren't being targeted, its just that the portion of people who are black and involved with crime is way higher than the ratio of the total population. If people actually focused on addressing crime they'd solve this problem. But its easier just to cry "racism" instead of even just accepting what the actual problem is.

Even when those factors are controlled, the entire justice system can be shown to clearly have a bias against black people. Not to mention various other systems. We all know black people are more likely to get convicted, get a longer and harsher sentence than a white person convicted of a similar crime. Black people are more likely to be sentenced to death.

This makes the system lose legitimacy.

 Da Boss wrote:
Even when those factors are controlled, the entire justice system can be shown to clearly have a bias against black people. Not to mention various other systems. We all know black people are more likely to get convicted, get a longer and harsher sentence than a white person convicted of a similar crime. Black people are more likely to be sentenced to death.

This makes the system lose legitimacy.

Just to address the underlined part


http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/race-death-row-inmates-executed-1976

 Da Boss wrote:
Even when those factors are controlled, the entire justice system can be shown to clearly have a bias against black people. Not to mention various other systems. We all know black people are more likely to get convicted, get a longer and harsher sentence than a white person convicted of a similar crime. Black people are more likely to be sentenced to death.

This makes the system lose legitimacy.

If the system is biased against black people, then why'd they arrest Jeffery Dhamer?
Checkmate race baiters.

 Da Boss wrote:
Even when those factors are controlled, the entire justice system can be shown to clearly have a bias against black people. Not to mention various other systems. We all know black people are more likely to get convicted, get a longer and harsher sentence than a white person convicted of a similar crime. Black people are more likely to be sentenced to death.

This makes the system lose legitimacy.

Please show it before you make the statement. I'm not actually disagreeing with you, but you have to prove it. You can't just say it.

 Da Boss wrote:
Even when those factors are controlled, the entire justice system can be shown to clearly have a bias against black people. Not to mention various other systems. We all know black people are more likely to get convicted, get a longer and harsher sentence than a white person convicted of a similar crime. Black people are more likely to be sentenced to death.

This makes the system lose legitimacy.

I'm not denying that at all. As much as I fething HATE the "white privilege" movement, I certainly acknowledge there are some facets of my life that I gain benefit from being white. Now, nearly all of those are when it comes to the criminal justice system, which is mostly a moot point anyway because I don't break the law, but I certainly acknowledge the disproportion trends in the justice system in regards to punishment, etc.

But again, I think we really have to take the time to look at protesting in 2015 very differently than in the past.

I'm simply not convinced actions like this "Black Brunch" do anything to further any cause, unless the cause is, as I said, "feth Whitey."

 Jihadin wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Even when those factors are controlled, the entire justice system can be shown to clearly have a bias against black people. Not to mention various other systems. We all know black people are more likely to get convicted, get a longer and harsher sentence than a white person convicted of a similar crime. Black people are more likely to be sentenced to death.

This makes the system lose legitimacy.

Just to address the underlined part

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/race-death-row-inmates-executed-1976

Out of curiosity, in your mind does showing that there is a disproportionate number of black people on death row help or hurt the argument? Just plopping it down doesn't really do any good to anyone and seems to make a lot of assumptions i.e. you addressed nothing by merely having a link.

 Ahtman wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Even when those factors are controlled, the entire justice system can be shown to clearly have a bias against black people. Not to mention various other systems. We all know black people are more likely to get convicted, get a longer and harsher sentence than a white person convicted of a similar crime. Black people are more likely to be sentenced to death.

This makes the system lose legitimacy.

Just to address the underlined part

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/race-death-row-inmates-executed-1976

Out of curiosity, in your mind does showing that there is a disproportionate number of black people on death row help or hurt the argument? Just plopping it down doesn't really do any good to anyone and seems to make a lot of assumptions i.e. you addressed nothing by merely having a link.

Its better then me saying "Its not true." Here's a link. Go over it. Draw your own conclusion.

 Ahtman wrote:

Out of curiosity, in your mind does showing that there is a disproportionate number of black people on death row help or hurt the argument? Just plopping it down doesn't really do any good to anyone and seems to make a lot of assumptions i.e. you addressed nothing by merely having a link.

How are those numbers disproportionate?

Disproportionate does not mean "wrong".

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:

Out of curiosity, in your mind does showing that there is a disproportionate number of black people on death row help or hurt the argument? Just plopping it down doesn't really do any good to anyone and seems to make a lot of assumptions i.e. you addressed nothing by merely having a link.

How are those numbers disproportionate?

Because % wise, in terms of total population, it is disproportionate. If there's 100 blue jelly beans and 1000 green jelly beans, if there are equal populations of jelly beans consumed, there will be a disproportionate number of blue jelly beans consumed.

50 of 100 is 50% ---> 50 of 1000 is 5%.


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 djones520 wrote:
Disproportionate does not mean "wrong".

Which is totally true.

The problem with all of the crime/prison statistics is that there really is a bit of chicken or the egg situation when it comes to black prison populations.

Jihadin wrote:Its better then me saying "Its not true." Here's a link. Go over it. Draw your own conclusion.

So you don't even understand your own post. Good going.

djones520 wrote:Disproportionate does not mean "wrong".

Nor does it meant "right".

Cincey already explained why the numbers are problematic.

 djones520 wrote:
Disproportionate does not mean "wrong".

The numbers requires one of two things to be true:

A: Blacks are inherently more prone to criminal behavior.
B: There are external systemic factors that account for the disproportion.

These are the two only two possibilities. Which one do you do you think accounts for it?

 Chongara wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
Disproportionate does not mean "wrong".

The numbers requires one of two things to be true:

A: Blacks are inherently more prone to criminal behavior.
B: There are external systemic factors that account for the disproportion.

These are the two only two possibilities. Which one do you do you think accounts for it?

I think it's B. But I don't think "white people" are responsible.

 Ahtman wrote:

Jihadin wrote:Its better then me saying "Its not true." Here's a link. Go over it. Draw your own conclusion.

So you don't even understand your own post. Good going.

djones520 wrote:Disproportionate does not mean "wrong".

Nor does it meant "right".

Cincey already explained why the numbers are problematic.

Thank you for ASSUMING Ahtman
Have a nice day

 Chongara wrote:


The numbers requires one of two things to be true:

A: Blacks are inherently more prone to criminal behavior.
B: There are external systemic factors that account for the disproportion.

These are the two only two possibilities. Which one do you do you think accounts for it?

Honestly, I don't think it's QUITE that simple.

There are a ton of socioeconomic and cultural factors at play. Reducing it to those two things is pretty silly, IMO.

 djones520 wrote:


I think it's B. But I don't think "white people" are responsible.

We'll leave "white people" out of it for now, as we're not really talking about them.

I think it's B as well. Now since we both agree there is problem and that it's systemic, this naturally means that we also agree that there are one or more problems with the system.

Now, what do you think are some likely problems in the system and why?

 Chongara wrote:

 djones520 wrote:


I think it's B. But I don't think "white people" are responsible.

We'll leave "white people" out of it for now, as we're not really talking about them.

Well, we sort of are in this particular instance, as the purpose of "Black Brunch" was to disrupt white people specifically.

 Chongara wrote:

 djones520 wrote:


I think it's B. But I don't think "white people" are responsible.

We'll leave "white people" out of it for now, as we're not really talking about them.

I think it's B as well. Now since we both agree there is problem and that it's systemic, this naturally means that we also agree that there are one or more problems with the system.

Now, what do you think are some likely problems in the system and why?

What do we mean when we say "the system" here?

 Chongara wrote:

 djones520 wrote:


I think it's B. But I don't think "white people" are responsible.

We'll leave "white people" out of it for now, as we're not really talking about them.

I think it's B as well. Now since we both agree there is problem and that it's systemic, this naturally means that we also agree that there are one or more problems with the system.

Now, what do you think are some likely problems in the system and why?

If by system, you mean a culture that propagates that type of behavior, then yeah I guess we can agree it's the system.

I don't think killing or disrespecting any human being is in anyway the best course of action in terms of protesting. Or trying to prove point in general is best through reasoned debate.

Though I am not surprised in general it is difficult to treat human beings as human.

 Chongara wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
Disproportionate does not mean "wrong".

The numbers requires one of two things to be true:

A: Blacks are inherently more prone to criminal behavior.
B: There are external systemic factors that account for the disproportion.

These are the two only two possibilities. Which one do you do you think accounts for it?

or
C. the proportion of crimes committed increases with socio economic class.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Chongara wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
Disproportionate does not mean "wrong".

The numbers requires one of two things to be true:

A: Blacks are inherently more prone to criminal behavior.
B: There are external systemic factors that account for the disproportion.

These are the two only two possibilities. Which one do you do you think accounts for it?

or
C. the proportion of crimes committed increases with socio economic class.

Bingo! That's why I asked my question about the system. To see if that was somehow included in option B. I used to work across from the Iberville projects in New Orleans and saw more than a fair share of crimes committed there as opposed to other parts of the city I either lived in or frequented.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Chongara wrote:

 djones520 wrote:


I think it's B. But I don't think "white people" are responsible.

We'll leave "white people" out of it for now, as we're not really talking about them.

Well, we sort of are in this particular instance, as the purpose of "Black Brunch" was to disrupt white people specifically.

You may as well say this justifies the discussion be centered on brunch broadly, since it was disrupting that meal specifically as well.

That the protest meant to impact, gain the attention of, or broadly deal with white people does not necessarily the protest was about white people. It also does not mean the cause of what was being protested was specifically "white people" or "whiteness" in a strict sense. However despite that, "white people" or "whiteness" can still be relevant, and getting their attention or trying to send some message to them or about them can still be meaningful.

Recognizing that and coming to understanding about what the underlying causes of the events being protested are and how "white people" might fit into that broader context is a prerequisite to having a discussion about if the protest may have been justified, relevant or effective or not.