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Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

Agreed wit Dreadclaw except for point one. Te european way with armed police is to present two extremes.

Most police don't carry guns, but those that do are very heavily armed and armoured.

In the UK each local force has an armed response unit ready at all times. they have a van, and in the van are assault rifles and other toys. The van moves around like any other and the police deploy unarmed, but in the event of armed responce request they drop what they are doing, go to the van tool up and move out.

European police move from unarmed to SWAT level policing directly, immediately and very rapidly. And if there is anything really serious it gets passed directly to Special Forces, with no pissing about in between. UK police don't have SWAT teams, ordinary armed police respond to armed reponce requests, and anything that would normally require a full SWAT response is likely to go straight to the SAS, though as armed incidents are relatively rare in Europe armed policing can be pooled as an alternative.

Its a better system as it doesn't level police having to handle armed people with only sidearms, police either bring it, or they don't try. Its a no half measures attitude that works exceptionally well.

IIRC France has a similar methodology to handling armed policing, as do the Germans.

Nothing really needs to change, and with the impressive speed the French have got their act together on this one, it sounds like they are doing fine as they are.

After all increasing armed policing will not stop attacks like these, you cant be everywhere.

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 Orlanth wrote:

Nothing really needs to change, and with the impressive speed the French have got their act together on this one, it sounds like they are doing fine as they are.


We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Impressive speed, to me, would have been getting armed cops to the site of the incident while the crap bags were still there, and cordoning off the area to prevent their escape from the scene. They get an 'F' for getting their act together in my book. Post incident, they may be doing better. We'll see.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/08 17:07:30


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North of your position

 CptJake wrote:
 Orlanth wrote:

Nothing really needs to change, and with the impressive speed the French have got their act together on this one, it sounds like they are doing fine as they are.


We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Impressive speed, to me, would have been getting armed cops to the site of the incident while the crap bags were still there, and cordoning off the area to prevent their escape from the scene. They get an 'F' for getting their act together in my book. Post incident, they may be doing better. We'll see.

You'll find it surprising how hard it is to get an armed response unit on site within minutes, in one of the most busy cities of the world.

   
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The Great State of Texas

Well they shot two cops, including one who was acting as security after threats. Why weren't they armed? What was the cop supposed to do in case someone came to carry out the threat exactly?

I will not fault the timing of arrival of other police. We've learned the hard way about that, with mass shootings. Current policy for most dpartments now is the first two that get to the scene don't wait for backup but go in anyway.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/08 17:25:34


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They should really have it figured out after Mumbai as that's a fairly big factor in why the armed police presence has gone up.

If find it incredulous that they've supposedly been following them for hours and have yet to apprehend over even kill them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/08 17:21:36


   
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 thenoobbomb wrote:
 CptJake wrote:
 Orlanth wrote:

Nothing really needs to change, and with the impressive speed the French have got their act together on this one, it sounds like they are doing fine as they are.


We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Impressive speed, to me, would have been getting armed cops to the site of the incident while the crap bags were still there, and cordoning off the area to prevent their escape from the scene. They get an 'F' for getting their act together in my book. Post incident, they may be doing better. We'll see.

You'll find it surprising how hard it is to get an armed response unit on site within minutes, in one of the most busy cities of the world.


Yes, I do. Not just surprising, but unacceptable.


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Fort Campbell

 thenoobbomb wrote:
 CptJake wrote:
 Orlanth wrote:

Nothing really needs to change, and with the impressive speed the French have got their act together on this one, it sounds like they are doing fine as they are.


We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Impressive speed, to me, would have been getting armed cops to the site of the incident while the crap bags were still there, and cordoning off the area to prevent their escape from the scene. They get an 'F' for getting their act together in my book. Post incident, they may be doing better. We'll see.

You'll find it surprising how hard it is to get an armed response unit on site within minutes, in one of the most busy cities of the world.


Had the officers who initially responded been armed, the armed response would have been almost immediate.

We can't say if anything would have changed... but there would have at least been the possibility of different outcomes.

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Yeah, if the cops who actually happened to be there when it happened had all been armed, they would have had a chance to at least pin the attackers in the building long enough for the response team to get there.

Thats how it works in the US, although our cops usually also have a shotgun or AR in their patrol vehicle as well. But they can at the very least stabilize a situation till a bigger response can arrive, which does take time.

It would not guarantee a different outcome, but it would make a different outcome possible.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/08 17:23:05


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Bristol

 Frazzled wrote:
Well they shot two cops, including one who was acting as security after threats. Why weren't they armed? What was the cop supposed to do in case someone came to carry out the threat exactly?


One of them was armed, apparently.

However, I'm sure that most people will agree that a handgun is simply outclassed when it comes up against two assailants with pump action shotguns and AK-47s. So unless you're going to arm all police with kevlar vests and MP5s, then the "they need more guns" argument isn't going to fly.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/08 17:27:57


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Even in the Netherlands where police officers do carry sidearms it has proven very difficult to respond to heavily armed criminals (thinking of the Brinks robbery in Amsterdam for the Dutch users). The difference in firepower is just too great in some cases, like this attack.

I agree with Orlanth that the current system seems to do well enough. With SWAT being able to escalate quickly into military support or police special forces, which has happened on one occasion in the Netherlands as well as in Spain to combat terrorists. Now its ongoing in France.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
Well they shot two cops, including one who was acting as security after threats. Why weren't they armed? What was the cop supposed to do in case someone came to carry out the threat exactly?


One of them was armed, apparently.

However, I'm sure that most people will agree that a handgun is simply outclassed when it comes up against two assailants with against pump action shotguns and AK-47s. So unless you're going to arm all police with kevlar vests and MP5s, then the "they need more guns" argument isn't going to fly.


The one that was protecting the magazine was armed, but the attackers also attacked two months after security was toned down.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/08 17:27:16


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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Fort Campbell

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Even in the Netherlands where police officers do carry sidearms it has proven very difficult to respond to heavily armed criminals (thinking of the Brinks robbery in Amsterdam for the Dutch users). The difference in firepower is just too great in some cases, like this attack.

I agree with Orlanth that the current system seems to do well enough. With SWAT being able to escalate quickly into military support or police special forces, which has happened on one occasion in the Netherlands as well as in Spain to combat terrorists. Now its ongoing in France.


Well enough sure. These events are incredibly rare, thankfully. But you can't discount how powerful that video of the officer being shot is going to end up being in the coming weeks, and the debates that are going to follow this event. I would not be surprised if some changes to come about because of this.

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 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
Well they shot two cops, including one who was acting as security after threats. Why weren't they armed? What was the cop supposed to do in case someone came to carry out the threat exactly?


One of them was armed, apparently.

However, I'm sure that most people will agree that a handgun is simply outclassed when it comes up against two assailants with against pump action shotguns and AK-47s. So unless you're going to arm all police with kevlar vests and MP5s, then the "they need more guns" argument isn't going to fly.


Its better than having no gun at all.

We're really suggesting they carry something. And hey, if they're in a patrol car or on a motorcycle, there isn't any reason they couldn't carry an MP5.

And Kevlar vests as standard would be a good idea too. I seem to recall cops in London wear anti-stab vests all the time, thats no different. Its really not an inconvenience to protect yourself.

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 Disciple of Fate wrote:

I agree with Orlanth that the current system seems to do well enough. With SWAT being able to escalate quickly into military support or police special forces, which has happened on one occasion in the Netherlands as well as in Spain to combat terrorists. Now its ongoing in France.



So you and Orlanth are happy with the way the current system worked in this case. Again, we will agree to disagree. The current system allowed the scum to carry out their attack and get away from the scene. It is likely to end up with another shootout at another location putting more folks at risk.

That just isn't 'well enough' for me.

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South Wales

I agree, it's a good idea to change the way you do things at the whim of terrorists.

Prestor Jon wrote:
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 djones520 wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Even in the Netherlands where police officers do carry sidearms it has proven very difficult to respond to heavily armed criminals (thinking of the Brinks robbery in Amsterdam for the Dutch users). The difference in firepower is just too great in some cases, like this attack.

I agree with Orlanth that the current system seems to do well enough. With SWAT being able to escalate quickly into military support or police special forces, which has happened on one occasion in the Netherlands as well as in Spain to combat terrorists. Now its ongoing in France.


Well enough sure. These events are incredibly rare, thankfully. But you can't discount how powerful that video of the officer being shot is going to end up being in the coming weeks, and the debates that are going to follow this event. I would not be surprised if some changes to come about because of this.

Agreed, perhaps there will be a discussion on protection, I can imagine that sidearms will become part of police equipment, but it is difficult to imagine it going further.

 CptJake wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

I agree with Orlanth that the current system seems to do well enough. With SWAT being able to escalate quickly into military support or police special forces, which has happened on one occasion in the Netherlands as well as in Spain to combat terrorists. Now its ongoing in France.



So you and Orlanth are happy with the way the current system worked in this case. Again, we will agree to disagree. The current system allowed the scum to carry out their attack and get away from the scene. It is likely to end up with another shootout at another location putting more folks at risk.

That just isn't 'well enough' for me.

Well that is the problem, do you change the whole system for one attack, something that occurs once in a decade? Even so, this type of attack would not allow enough time to respond for a sufficient number of police officers, as they only started to arrive on the scene as the attackers prepared to leave. Also the mentions of them possesing rpg's makes me wonder what police would need to stop them.

Some more news from the BBC
Police sources have told the AFP news agency that two suspects are in custody in connection with the fatal shooting of a policewoman in Paris this morning. The suspects are reportedly a 52-year-old man and one other.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/08 17:45:46


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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Bristol

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Even in the Netherlands where police officers do carry sidearms it has proven very difficult to respond to heavily armed criminals (thinking of the Brinks robbery in Amsterdam for the Dutch users). The difference in firepower is just too great in some cases, like this attack.


You could also point to the North Hollywood bank robbery in the USA as an example. Two bank robbers with machine guns and body armour injured 11 policemen armed with handguns and shotguns. It was only when SWAT arrived that the gunmen were able to be subdued.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/08 17:34:34


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 MrDwhitey wrote:
I agree, it's a good idea to change the way you do things at the whim of terrorists.


It would seem better to adapt to an evolving threat than to stay with a process that is proven to not work. Hint: The bad guys are now exploiting the current way of doing business. Hence 12 dead folks and bad guys on the run and armed.

But hey, evolving along with the threat may push folks out of their comfort zone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Even in the Netherlands where police officers do carry sidearms it has proven very difficult to respond to heavily armed criminals (thinking of the Brinks robbery in Amsterdam for the Dutch users). The difference in firepower is just too great in some cases, like this attack.


You could also point to the North Hollywood bank robbery in the USA as an example. Two bank robbers with machine guns and body armour injured 11 policemen armed with handguns and shotguns. It was only when SWAT arrived that the gunmen were able to be subdued.


It is a GREAT example. As a result of that incident, the LAPD and other LE agencies adapted and evolved.

France has a similar incident and I am hearing "Making changes is giving in, the system as is works fine".

*You'll also note the bad guys were never allowed to break contact with LE in that incident, can't say the same for the attack yesterday.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/08 17:37:38


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Fort Campbell

 MrDwhitey wrote:
I agree, it's a good idea to change the way you do things at the whim of terrorists.


Look, I'm not saying anything should change. But acting like giving police officers a better chance to survive is like ripping away civil rights is a little much.

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South Wales

I agree, everything is preventable.

@djones, The French officers have the choice of carrying firearms. I wouldn't have an issue with vests either.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/08 17:37:53


Prestor Jon wrote:
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Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Even in the Netherlands where police officers do carry sidearms it has proven very difficult to respond to heavily armed criminals (thinking of the Brinks robbery in Amsterdam for the Dutch users). The difference in firepower is just too great in some cases, like this attack.


You could also point to the North Hollywood bank robbery in the USA as an example. Two bank robbers with machine guns and body armour injured 11 policemen armed with handguns and shotguns. It was only when SWAT arrived that the gunmen were able to be subdued.


But they didn't get away. They were able to keep them in one location till backup arrived.

Also, shotguns are one of the most dangerous close quarter weapons you could ask for. They're quite a deadly weapon.

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Is the North Hollywood Shootout though? According to events they got spotted by police before starting the robbery, drastically increasing response time compared with this case.

Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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 CptJake wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

I agree with Orlanth that the current system seems to do well enough. With SWAT being able to escalate quickly into military support or police special forces, which has happened on one occasion in the Netherlands as well as in Spain to combat terrorists. Now its ongoing in France.



So you and Orlanth are happy with the way the current system worked in this case. Again, we will agree to disagree. The current system allowed the scum to carry out their attack and get away from the scene. It is likely to end up with another shootout at another location putting more folks at risk.

That just isn't 'well enough' for me.


One of the cops was armed, there are reports that the terrorists also carried a RPG that they didn't use, so what exact level of armament should the police carry around to handle that type of threat?

Also, it took you guys 4 days to arrest all the suspects of the Boston Marathon bombing. How come your system didn't prevent those terrorists from carrying out their attack, get away from the scene and end up in shoot outs in other locations?

Your system isn't any better than the European one and one could even argue that its a lot worse because it fosters a much heavier militarization of every day police duties so I have no idea where you guys are arguing for it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/08 17:44:17


 
   
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 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Is the North Hollywood Shootout though? According to events they got spotted by police before starting the robbery, drastically increasing response time compared with this case.


Regardless, the cops were able to arrive and keep the bad guys from breaking contact. The reporting cops who saw them go in were armed, and positioned themselves to engage the perps when they came out all while awaiting back up.

AND as stated, the cops learned from the situation and changed they way they do business.




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So the argument for not giving them weapons is that it didn't help in these few cases?

How many times does an armed police officer save the lives of others because he has a weapon to tackle the situation?

Honestly if French people themselves had had guns these scum would have been dead by now.

   
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Fort Campbell

PhantomViper wrote:
 CptJake wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

I agree with Orlanth that the current system seems to do well enough. With SWAT being able to escalate quickly into military support or police special forces, which has happened on one occasion in the Netherlands as well as in Spain to combat terrorists. Now its ongoing in France.



So you and Orlanth are happy with the way the current system worked in this case. Again, we will agree to disagree. The current system allowed the scum to carry out their attack and get away from the scene. It is likely to end up with another shootout at another location putting more folks at risk.

That just isn't 'well enough' for me.


One of the cops was armed, there are reports that the terrorists also carried a RPG that they didn't use, so what exact level of armament should the police carry around to handle that type of threat?

Also, it took you guys 4 days to arrest all the suspects of the Boston Marathon bombing. How come your system didn't prevent those terrorists from carrying out their attack, get away from the scene and end up in shoot outs in other locations?

Your system isn't any better than the European one and one could even argue that its a lot worse because it fosters a much heavier militarization of every day police duties so I have no idea where you guys are arguing for it.


You can't exactly compare these two incidents. With the Boston Bombing there was almost nothing to work off of. These guys left clues that were gathered right away.

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PhantomViper wrote:


One of the cops was armed, there are reports that the terrorists also carried a RPG that they didn't use, so what exact level of armament should the police carry around to handle that type of threat?

Also, it took you guys 4 days to arrest all the suspects of the Boston Marathon bombing. How come your system didn't prevent those terrorists from carrying out their attack, get away from the scene and end up in shoot outs in other locations?

Your system isn't any better than the European one and one could even argue that its a lot worse because it fosters a much heavier militarization of every day police duties so I have no idea where you guys are arguing for it.


You're comparing a bombing to an active shooter situation...totally different animals. We had Reddit neckbeards trolling macro photos of the marathon looking for suspects, and the internet incorrectly accused the wrong guy. In this case, we have video of the shooters committing the act and we have identification that they dropped at the scene.

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South Wales

Clues that were found/collected after they had left?

Prestor Jon wrote:
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 djones520 wrote:
PhantomViper wrote:
 CptJake wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

I agree with Orlanth that the current system seems to do well enough. With SWAT being able to escalate quickly into military support or police special forces, which has happened on one occasion in the Netherlands as well as in Spain to combat terrorists. Now its ongoing in France.



So you and Orlanth are happy with the way the current system worked in this case. Again, we will agree to disagree. The current system allowed the scum to carry out their attack and get away from the scene. It is likely to end up with another shootout at another location putting more folks at risk.

That just isn't 'well enough' for me.


One of the cops was armed, there are reports that the terrorists also carried a RPG that they didn't use, so what exact level of armament should the police carry around to handle that type of threat?

Also, it took you guys 4 days to arrest all the suspects of the Boston Marathon bombing. How come your system didn't prevent those terrorists from carrying out their attack, get away from the scene and end up in shoot outs in other locations?

Your system isn't any better than the European one and one could even argue that its a lot worse because it fosters a much heavier militarization of every day police duties so I have no idea where you guys are arguing for it.


You can't exactly compare these two incidents. With the Boston Bombing there was almost nothing to work off of. These guys left clues that were gathered right away.


How would the clues that they left after leaving the scene help the cops in preventing them from leaving the scene?
   
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 MrDwhitey wrote:
Clues that were found/collected after they had left?

If I'm not mistaken, one of the shooter left his ID in a car.

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There was a lucky break that a patrol car was coming down the street at the exact moment they were entering the bank.

The robbers were also a little dumb in that they didn't attempt to conceal their approach. But the fact the first responders were armed did prevent them from just hopping in a vehicle and driving away.

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