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Come to think of it, CSM would be next in line after Necrons are updated.
GW could remove Chaos Daemons and CSM and instead just make 4 books of the various gods with Demons and Cult troops inside. I don't think I like that approach because all legions that are not completely swamped with demons (iron warriors, alpha legion, night lods maybe too) will be a pain in the butt to represent, especially if they put havocs in one book, tacticals in another and raptors in a third...

Speaking of Cult terminators - Forge allready has khorne terminator kits. Maybe the whole thing will be much less of a big deal and they'll just release a few white dwarfs with updated cult kits and maybe new cult terminators?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I've tried other games, but the only game that really fills that niche for me has been 40k. And it's not about leaving 40k, it's just about the company being honest and either updating an army I play or dropping it completely so I can look at other projects instead.

Then just start out a new project for 40k, get excited with it and stop caring about Sisters beside checking rumors for any good news. You can notice that even in my first message, I merely said potentially for another game. It is just that personally, I think “Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me” applies perfectly here, but you seem to see it otherwise.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Now if they do the dame thing then in 3.5dex with the restrictions on the options the unit can take given the Cult, then yeah its bollocks.

You mean, like, take the MoK and no more Heavy Weapons in your 'Zerker squads? That wasn't bollocks. That made sense.

No, more like no assault weapons in a assalt oriented squad bollocks.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I've tried other games, but the only game that really fills that niche for me has been 40k. And it's not about leaving 40k, it's just about the company being honest and either updating an army I play or dropping it completely so I can look at other projects instead.

Then just start out a new project for 40k, get excited with it and stop caring about Sisters beside checking rumors for any good news. You can notice that even in my first message, I merely said potentially for another game. It is just that personally, I think “Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me” applies perfectly here, but you seem to see it otherwise.

You must have skipped the bit about me working on a new Nids army.

 Lockark wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Rumour Sauce wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/546271.page

Just wanted to remind people that I had early information regarding this release over a year ago.

Yup, feth this. I don't want my codex broken into pieces and sold to me as goddamn DLC.

That's been the general direction Warhammer 40k has been heading in for awhile. After the Ork and Dark Eldar release I saw the change in the winds and sold off my 6000+ point CSM army and 3000+ point ork armies. Unless your playing a Forgeworld list, that's just the nature of 40k now.

Been kinda getting back into fantasy in all honesty since the end times is actually new content and not repackaged rules that were ripped out of my armybook and sold to me as a separate book.
=/

Why the hell would you ever sell an army? If GW releases a gak codex, then you go back and either use a previous one or just go back to playing Third Edition.

There's a tension in terms of rules and flavour between Chaos Space Marines as a generic concept, the original cult-specific Traitor Legions, and the other Traitor Legions.

Each of these is its own thing. Generic Chaos Space Marines can represent any random Space Marine Chapter that has fallen to Chaos over time. The non-cult-specific Traitor Legions each (should) have their own identity just as much as any of the Space Marine Chapters in the current codex, with corresponding special rules to reflect their specialities.

Finally, the original cult-specific Traitor Legions - World Eaters, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, and Emperor's Children - need special treatment, I think, to reflect the fact that they originated the four special kinds of Chaos Space Marines. I'd do something to let each Legion use those as troops without paying any kind of special tax - it would just be part of their rules, whereas other Chaos Space Marine armies, even dedicated to the corresponding god, would have to use them as elites. Or something.

You could do all of this in one book, but if they want to split it up, what I'd want to see is something like Codex Chaos Legions and Codex Chaos Traitors.

I see the point of the Khorne-specific book being mentioned upthread, so if it's going that way, I'd want those books to be, "Here's how to do a generic Khorne-dedicated Chaos Space Marine force, and then here is another chapter about the World Eaters specifically." Rinse and repeat for the other three gods.

Then the new Codex Chaos Space Marines could do sort of the same thing - "Here's your generic Chaos Space Marine force, and here's a special chapter with tactics and characters for the Black Legion, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, and Night Lords." That would even be appropriate because a lot of the special units for the other Traitor Legions are either not particularly unique to them (Raptors for the Night Lords, Cultists for the Alpha Legion) or aren't Troops (Vindicators for the Iron Warriors, Dark Apostles for the Word Bearers).

mhacdebhandia wrote:


I see the point of the Khorne-specific book being mentioned upthread, so if it's going that way, I'd want those books to be, "Here's how to do a generic Khorne-dedicated Chaos Space Marine force, and then here is another chapter about the World Eaters specifically." Rinse and repeat for the other three gods.

Well, except there are no "original Legion" World Eaters in 40K after Kharn did his thing.

The biggest, most powerful "World Eater" Chaos Lord is a renegade from a White Scars successor chapter, the most numerous Khorne/Zerker-Warband are former Word Bearers and the most efficient "Berserker-assembly-line" belongs to Abaddon.

They have FW 30K-rules, cause that is where they belong.

Even if a bunch Zerkers would paint their shoulderpads with World Eater iconography in 40K, they wouldn't know gak about the original Legion's tactics, doctrine, etc.. anyhow, and Angrons not about to teach them. Inversely. the original World Eater legion didn't fight side-by-side with Bloodletters, Bloodcrushers, Cultists and Khornate Skullmowers.

They'd be "World Eaters" in name only, at best. As far as "military tactics" go, they'd be no different in their approach to warfare than any other random Khorne-warband, simply following the guy with the biggest pile of skulls like all of them do.

A World Eaters warband whose entire force sums up to, say, 1500pts worth of Berserkers (as we're talking about their actual numbers rather than their total fighting strength involving vehicles and whatnot) is still totally plausible. Just because they don't have enormous Grand Companies or true Legions doesn't mean that people are restricted from having a pure World Eaters army, since what is a large army on the board is not a large army in the fluff.

Kharn caused them to splinter (even if it is really silly fluff). That doesn't mean that every original World Eater has a restraining order on every other, it just means their numbers aren't as concentrated as other Legions.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
A World Eaters warband whose entire force sums up to, say, 1500pts worth of Berserkers (as we're talking about their actual numbers rather than their total fighting strength involving vehicles and whatnot) is still totally plausible. Just because they don't have enormous Grand Companies or true Legions doesn't mean that people are restricted from having a pure World Eaters army, since what is a large army on the board is not a large army in the fluff.

Kharn caused them to splinter (even if it is really silly fluff). That doesn't mean that every original World Eater has a restraining order on every other, it just means their numbers aren't as concentrated as other Legions.

Again, doesn't change the fact that they wouldn't fight like "World Eaters" in the legion sense.

They'd be a bunch of Zerkers chopping heads and charging towards the enemy along with Cultists, Bloodletters and whatever else Khorne throws in there. Whether their original gene-seed is 10.000-year old World Eater stock (rarer than a snowflake in hell) or 100-year old Ultramarine stock (99.999999% of all Khorne/Berserker-armies a 40K (!) Codex must represent) makes little difference.

Neither, for different reasons, has much in common with the Legion under pre-Daemon Angron's command during the Heresy.

the fluff supports SOME world eaters lords fighting like the legions of old, Kharn infact kills one of these lords in his audio book, this same lord wanted to reunite the broken world eaters to attack the imperium.

Kharn killed this guy but it doesn't stop the fact that some lords want this and do fight like the old legion.

mhacdebhandia wrote:
There's a tension in terms of rules and flavour between Chaos Space Marines as a generic concept, the original cult-specific Traitor Legions, and the other Traitor Legions.

Each of these is its own thing. Generic Chaos Space Marines can represent any random Space Marine Chapter that has fallen to Chaos over time. The non-cult-specific Traitor Legions each (should) have their own identity just as much as any of the Space Marine Chapters in the current codex, with corresponding special rules to reflect their specialities.

Finally, the original cult-specific Traitor Legions - World Eaters, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, and Emperor's Children - need special treatment, I think, to reflect the fact that they originated the four special kinds of Chaos Space Marines. I'd do something to let each Legion use those as troops without paying any kind of special tax - it would just be part of their rules, whereas other Chaos Space Marine armies, even dedicated to the corresponding god, would have to use them as elites. Or something.

You could do all of this in one book, but if they want to split it up, what I'd want to see is something like Codex Chaos Legions and Codex Chaos Traitors.

I see the point of the Khorne-specific book being mentioned upthread, so if it's going that way, I'd want those books to be, "Here's how to do a generic Khorne-dedicated Chaos Space Marine force, and then here is another chapter about the World Eaters specifically." Rinse and repeat for the other three gods.

Then the new Codex Chaos Space Marines could do sort of the same thing - "Here's your generic Chaos Space Marine force, and here's a special chapter with tactics and characters for the Black Legion, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, and Night Lords." That would even be appropriate because a lot of the special units for the other Traitor Legions are either not particularly unique to them (Raptors for the Night Lords, Cultists for the Alpha Legion) or aren't Troops (Vindicators for the Iron Warriors, Dark Apostles for the Word Bearers).

I wouldn't expect cult units to be troops next edition; 7th has taken a lot away, like asm go BA

 Formosa wrote:
the fluff supports SOME world eaters lords fighting like the legions of old, Kharn infact kills one of these lords in his audio book, this same lord wanted to reunite the broken world eaters to attack the imperium.

Kharn killed this guy but it doesn't stop the fact that some lords want this and do fight like the old legion.

Not saying they don't exist. They just aren't the norm, and for a super-specific scenario like this, you can surely house-rule something or use FW-rules.

The Dark Eldar trilogy ends with a huge Dark Eldar army consisting entirely from corrupted craftworld Wraithconstructs rampaging through Commorrogh. Doesn't mean the Dark Eldar Codex must allow you to field an all-Wraithguard/Wraitthlord army? Likewise, it's not inconceivable that some Orks, Space Marines or whatever run into a 1500 pts. or 2000 pts.-sized "force" consisting entirely of Vespid (frankly, they are almost certainly more numerous than original-Legion-World Eaters). Must the Tau Empire Codex cater to an all-Vespid-army by default because it is conceivable? No.

If super-specific Black Library event and/or possibilities like these inspire you to start an army, you might just have to do with a bit of counts-as, tweaking and house-ruling. At some point, every Codex has to draw the line and stick with the "middle 99.999%" of the Gaussian distribution and leave the extreme exceptions to "unbound", "house-rules", "counts-as" and all the other tools of the super-special-snowflake-fluff-bunnies.

Wonderwolf wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
A World Eaters warband whose entire force sums up to, say, 1500pts worth of Berserkers (as we're talking about their actual numbers rather than their total fighting strength involving vehicles and whatnot) is still totally plausible. Just because they don't have enormous Grand Companies or true Legions doesn't mean that people are restricted from having a pure World Eaters army, since what is a large army on the board is not a large army in the fluff.

Kharn caused them to splinter (even if it is really silly fluff). That doesn't mean that every original World Eater has a restraining order on every other, it just means their numbers aren't as concentrated as other Legions.

Again, doesn't change the fact that they wouldn't fight like "World Eaters" in the legion sense.

They'd be a bunch of Zerkers chopping heads and charging towards the enemy along with Cultists, Bloodletters and whatever else Khorne throws in there. Whether their original gene-seed is 10.000-year old World Eater stock (rarer than a snowflake in hell) or 100-year old Ultramarine stock (99.999999% of all Khorne/Berserker-armies a 40K (!) Codex must represent) makes little difference.

Neither, for different reasons, has much in common with the Legion under pre-Daemon Angron's command during the Heresy.

Why does it have to have anything to do with the Heresy? Most people, as far as I am aware, who play World Eaters in 40k play them for their, violent, angry, brutal, red-armoured post-Heresy character. They are the original and iconic Chaos Space Marines of Khorne. Their name is largely synonymous with Khorne Berserker, and that's what people like them for, and would want to see in a Supplement or whatever (especially if this book is indeed everything Khorne). You keep mentioning the pre-Heresy World Eaters as if people are expecting or desiring pre-Heresy style World Eaters in a Khorne book.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:


Why does it have to have anything to do with the Heresy? Most people, as far as I am aware, who play World Eaters in 40k play them for their, violent, angry, brutal, red-armoured post-Heresy character. They are the original and iconic Chaos Space Marines of Khorne. Their name is largely synonymous with Khorne Berserker, and that's what people like them for, and would want to see in a Supplement or whatever (especially if this book is indeed everything Khorne). You keep mentioning the pre-Heresy World Eaters as if people are expecting or desiring pre-Heresy style World Eaters in a Khorne book.

Because it was said that this "Khorne supplement" should have distinctive and separate rules for "generic" Khorne/Berserker-armies AND "World Eaters" specifically.

If they are synonymous with Khorne Berserkers, they should be well represented with a Khorne-focussed book.

The argument I was disagreeing with, was that World Eaters would NOT be well-represented by a "generic" Berserker/Khorne-focussed army list. While I acknowledged that there ARE probably miniscule differences in the most specific fluff-instances, I doubt these differences would be (a) significant enough and (b) fluff-wise widespread enough to warrant a separate "World Eaters"-legion list in 40K (not 30K) IN ADDITION to an already Berserker-focussed Khorne Codex/List!

mhacdebhandia wrote:
"Here's how to do a generic Khorne-dedicated Chaos Space Marine force, and then here is another chapter about the World Eaters specifically." Rinse and repeat for the other three gods.

Frankly, even if Angron himself shows up in 40K, given that he likes to hang out with Bloodthirsters and other major Khorne Daemons, his army and entourage would probably be better represented by a Khorne-Daemon-heavy "Khorne-Codex" than a specific World Eater-List that tries to be separate from the former.

No.

If there is a Black Legion SUpplement, and if they make Other legions supplement, then they will make a World eaters supplement that focus on WE, be it as a Legion or on a Warband per Warband iteration.

Now nothing prevents them to make a "All you can mix" Khorne book with Deamons, Zerkers and Cultists in it AND releasing a WE specific book that focus on the WE fluff, rules and journey just like the BL did or even with the CS book.

They made an entire Supplement for one Company of one Chapter of Space Marines (Clan Raukaan). I'm sure they could muster a special rule or two to distinguish World Eaters from "generic" Khorne warbands.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
They made an entire Supplement for one Company of one Chapter of Space Marines (Clan Raukaan). I'm sure they could muster a special rule or two to distinguish World Eaters from "generic" Khorne warbands.

Didn't you just say the two are synonymous?

Wonderwolf wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
They made an entire Supplement for one Company of one Chapter of Space Marines (Clan Raukaan). I'm sure they could muster a special rule or two to distinguish World Eaters from "generic" Khorne warbands.

Didn't you just say the two are synonymous?

Frozen Ocean wrote:Their name is largely synonymous with Khorne Berserker

I said "largely" (so not absolutely), and I said "Khorne Berserker", which is a different thing to "Khorne warband". Death Company are not the same as Khorne Berserkers, despite being very similar. Things don't have to be radically different to be different.

I don't even know what you're arguing. Nobody has brought up any suggestions about pre-Heresy style World Eaters except you, so I really don't understand what point you're trying to make. World Eaters (post-Heresy) are the classic Berserkers, but that doesn't make them indistinguishable from all other Khornate Space Marines. It's exactly the same with Plague Marines and the Death Guard, as well as Noise Marines and the Emperor's Children. The Thousand Sons/Rubric Marines are a unique case. There's really no issue with making a generic Khorne book and then having a few special rules or whatever to make them World Eaters. Not a single person suggested that this would, for some strange reason, mean pre-Heresy pre-Khorne World Eaters.

Yeah, all it would need is a world eaters specific warlord traits table and a few relics, maybe some extra weapons for chosen too. That's pretty simple.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
There's really no issue with making a generic Khorne book and then having a few special rules or whatever to make them World Eaters. Not a single person suggested that this would, for some strange reason, mean pre-Heresy pre-Khorne World Eaters.

So what would the difference be between a "generic" Khorne warband like those led by Zhufor (ex Storm Lord Chapter) or the Sactified (ex Word Bearers) and a "true" post-Heresy World Eater warband of "pure" World Eater geneseed stock (the one or two that might still be around in 40K against all probability)?

And why would World Eater Berserkers be more deserving of a special rule than ... say .. Black Legion Berserkers, which are vastly more numerous and more commonly encountered in 40K, thanks to Abaddon still actively creating these guys in large numbers?

 Formosa wrote:
Yeah, all it would need is a world eaters specific warlord traits table and a few relics, maybe some extra weapons for chosen too. That's pretty simple.

What's a "World Eater" and what is a "generic" Khorne Warband Warlord Trait and/or relic

WL-Trait of chopping moar skulls: Warlord and his unit get D3 attacks on the charge - World Eater or "generic" Khorne?
WL-Trait of getting to the skulls fasta: Every unit in 12" of Warlord can re-roll charge ranges - World Eater or "generic" Khorne?
Choppy Chainsword of Khorne: AP3 Instant Death Chainsword - World Eater or "generic" Khorne?
Skull Helm of the Skull God: Warlord gets Rampage and causes Fear - World Eater or "generic" Khorne?

Please somebody explain me why and where there would be thematic differences?

So with the latest release schedule rumor doesn't have CSM on it properly, so the idea of it being a supplement seems more and more likely.

via Steve the Warboss

EARLY - MID JAN
Skaven (confirmed)

LATE JAN
Necrons

EARLY - MID FEB
Harlequin

LATE FEB - MID MAR
Endtimes : Archaon

LATE MAR
CSM Suppliment

EARLY - MID APR
Adeptus Mechanicus

LATE APR - MID MAY
Warhammer Fantasy 9th (or a new Game called "Warhammer")

LATE MAY
Maybe Sororitas

EARLY JUN
New Warhammer Starter Set

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So with the latest release schedule rumor doesn't have CSM on it properly, so the idea of it being a supplement seems more and more likely.

via Steve the Warboss

LATE MAY
Maybe Sororitas

SALT!!!

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So with the latest release schedule rumor doesn't have CSM on it properly, so the idea of it being a supplement seems more and more likely.

via Steve the Warboss

LATE MAY
Maybe Sororitas

SALT!!!

I wouldn't get too excited about it. First they said "maybe" and then I saw a comment after I made that post claiming the list was wrong and they'd be relaying a more accurate one later in the week once they confirmed things.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So with the latest release schedule rumor doesn't have CSM on it properly, so the idea of it being a supplement seems more and more likely.

via Steve the Warboss

LATE MAY
Maybe Sororitas

SALT!!!

You could put that part of the rumor into a salt mine and it wouldn't be seasoned properly yet unless we're talking about a simple rehash with no new units/models/effort/skill.

Yes, I too admire your optimism and unwavering loyalty.

No cult marines? That's doubtful. I hope they won't separate them in to a dataslate, I don't own a tablet. :|

The problem with chaos is that there are so many varieties to chaos. There are renegades, the different legion adherent warbands, and the former legion marines who want to strike out entirely on their own; then you have the big 4 chaos gods and then you have a couple of interpretations undivided. If you include all of those things in a single book you have a codex that relative to other codices is oversized and filled with a varied specificity that exceeds other codices.

FW's Horus Heresy series is great and it'd be amazing if GW took that approach with 40k to build a more cohesive interpretation of the setting that allows for a high degree of representation. Short of that approach C:CSM has to strike a balance and accept a representation that only goes so far. GW unlike FW wants to leave room for interpretation and that dictates something much more generic.

If you consider the 3 most basic types of chaos marines, renegades, the different legion adherent warbands, and the former legion marines who want to strike out entirely on their own; renegades are half of all chaos marines, and approximately a quarter are of each of the other two categories. GW insists the codex represents Renegades but without anything to represent their former loyalist roots and without rules representing legion adherent warbands this codex barely represents a quarter of all Chaos marines. To broaden what this codex actually does means at least touching on Legions but as a matter of proportionality having something significant that addresses what distinguish Renegades from the rest.

The problem is that the book doesn't represent Renegades either. If it did they'd have Razorbacks, various types of Land Raiders, and more up-to-date Wargear (Terminator weapons especially). In the end, by trying to represent everything they end up representing nothing; just a hodge-podge of Legion-esque units without any of the Legion-y flavour, a dash of Chaos Gods, and a whole lot of generic.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The problem is that the book doesn't represent Renegades either. If it did they'd have Razorbacks, various types of Land Raiders, and more up-to-date Wargear (Terminator weapons especially). In the end, by trying to represent everything they end up representing nothing; just a hodge-podge of Legion-esque units without any of the Legion-y flavour, a dash of Chaos Gods, and a whole lot of generic.

Really well-put.

I think that holds true to many codexes, and that, while the 3.5 codexes were hardly perfect, they had the right philosophy.

Realistically, my ideal Codex: CSM would basically be 3.5 with cult troops closer to the current standard of rules (i.e. they were a little simplistic by the current iteration's standards), and updated armies, not such an absurd amount of gear or some limitations on it, and a couple entries equivalent to the 2-page legion entries, for renegades (generic)/red corsairs, and maybe another for a truncated lost and the damned list.

Considering they did it before with less space then and even had the (then much shorter) daemon list before, I don't think it would that absurd to say that it'd be achievable.