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Hey there. I've recently gotten back into 40k after taking like a 6th month break to start work and having to move and such, so I'm getting acquainted to 7th edition. I understand the rules pretty well but really don't understand what the meta looks like. I'm not a build my list to only win kind of guy, but winning is nice. I've played Deathwing since 4th ed so I'd like to use them in 7th. I'm not gunning for top general at tournaments but I was wondering if the tactics kind of stayed true. Is Deathwing assault still the way to go? Are Land Raiders better? I've got a list I recently posted up here that has yet to be commented on but I guess my list building would benefit from refined tactics. Thoughts?

DA isnt high on the totem of power currently and most unfortunately but bikes are still strong if played well and the deathwing can now all come in on turn 1 with no units at the start of the game for a null deployment lol

DA can still work, just need more skill rather than list build

Yea I kinda figured that was the case. So just DW assault across the front and make them engage? I used to run two min ravenwing squads with meltas for teleport homers and then meltas if they survived. No clue what's good. I know they aren't winning tournaments but I can at least maximize their potential.

I would DW assault in their back lines and use some bikes to hit the front lines, a little hammer and anvil. Should be fast enought to avoid being shot down.

The new DA libby dataslate is also pretty awesome if you want to check that out

Edit -- sorry -- posted to wrong thread initially.

I think DW this edition are best off as a mix of well-protected land raiders (2 Deathwing land raiders zipping down a flank on turn 1, followed by a Librarian on a bike with power field to give them 4++) and Deathwing Assault (arriving Turn 2, and not scattering due to Belial being in one of the Raiders). I would probably go with two units of Deathwing Knights in the raiders, and then drop in shooty troop termies.

Landraiders are certainly more potent now that they can score - especially as troop choices for DW. I highly recommend at least 2 Landraiders if you can fit them in.

PFG got re-FAQ'd to not wrk inside vehicles again, so a librarian on a bike with PFG is a good idea. If you want bikes to support he would also unlock the RCS which is nice.

Mechaized with Belial inside a Landraider to bring down DW assault around him is how I like to do it.

Yea scoring venerable land raiders is cool. I didn't even think about the pfg libby to help them. I'll definitely have to try that since I usually run no vehicles or maybe two dreadnoughts.

If you are going to run dreads then the best option would be mortis Mk V's from IA.

They are fluffy for DA and DW and give you some skyfire.

Deathing is fun in the 7th if not super competitive, though depending on your list it can be over whelming for a lot of opponents. Deathwing assault is awesome in this codex and I really hope they don't change it in the next (They can get rid of the option for turn two actually). I use it literally every game even if it's just for Belial and his unit. Belial not scattering is huge don't underestimate it and make sure you abuse it, I often put him in a ten man unit. I tried venerable raiders but it wasn't worth the points for me. I found that the units that were taking out my raiders fired 'enmass' and I was still dieing to loss of hull points. I only field two types of dreads at this point (my gaming group frowns upon forgeworld units, which sucks) 120 point riflemen, and 160 ven dreads in pods with a MM. The latter I only use one of and it aids my DWA alpha strike. Deathwing Knights are fun though I don't find they live up to their hype, though I do believe it comes down to local meta. Knights need a raider and benefit greatly from a chaplain. On the subject of Chaplains I find it fun to replace his storm bolter with a mace of redemption, extra attack and its like a crozius on crack.

Those are the elements I play around with in my deathwing lists and I find them quite entertaining throw down on the table. Every so often I fields Belial, 30 terminators and a dread for kicks, those games are always one side getting tabled.

The internet will say deathwing is bad. They're no taudar, but they're really not bad. An all terminator force will hard counter alot of things. Plus that look on your opponents face when you set 30+ terminators down on the table turn one is priceless. i LOVE deathwing. with dwa, vengeful strike, split fire, fearless, the ability to mix assault and tactical terminators, and the ability to take them as troops, I have no problem paying the extra 4 points per model. Just kind of wish i didn't have to take belial as a tax most times.

edit: i'm hoping in the next dex, they keep them just the way they are, but give the option to take a normal company master to get them. if they made them the same points costs as everyone else's terminators, that would just be cake. More than likely though, there'll be a detatchment similar to the blood angel's first company detatchment. two hq slots (must be in termi armor), and a ton of elite slots. i'd be fine with this.

The key with Deathwing moreso than any other army is Force Concentration. You want to use your deployment abilities to make sure ALL of your force is facing no more than half of theirs, the rest being shut out initially by terrain and distance. That way, your low model count is less of a disadvantage and you can also bring more fire to bear in a smaller area. By the time the other half of his army reaches you, you should have crippled the first half you targeted.

 Paradigm wrote:
The key with Deathwing moreso than any other army is Force Concentration. You want to use your deployment abilities to make sure ALL of your force is facing no more than half of theirs, the rest being shut out initially by terrain and distance. That way, your low model count is less of a disadvantage and you can also bring more fire to bear in a smaller area. By the time the other half of his army reaches you, you should have crippled the first half you targeted.

This is a very good point. If you can bring your elite infantry against their lower class infantry, you can easily beat them. Think 300. Also consider that you don't HAVE to DW assault turn one. You can use some drop pods turn one with homers to safely get your deathwing where they need to go. Alternatively, this is why ravenwing works very well with deathwing (even if they don't fit a pure deathwing theme).

These are some great points. I also find that the LRs while venerable just get dusted 'cause of hull points. The list I just currently edited up is Belial with a level 2 libby, 2 command groups, a unit of knights, and 3 troop units. Personally I took the knights cause they look cool but they are surprisingly my mvp every game. Soak up so many shots, they are real hard to kill at T5 2+/3++ and of course you get the one round of kill whatever you want. Since everything scores in 7th I didn't really feel hampered bringing only 15 objsec termies, but I'll play test. I'll throw my list up here but I do try and do what paradigm ancraig said. Belial is an anchor and knowing I get one unit where I want is nice so I just drop my dudes on one side and kinda kill them and make them engage me on my terms sorta. I know they won't win tournaments but I do believe the are underrated.

If your landraiders (which should be effected by a PFG) are dying from loss of hullpoints, then your opponent must be putting a serious amount of firepower on them.

Seriously, if the opponent has BS4 it would take 72 krak missile, 36 lascannon, or 24 D-cannon shots to take off 4 HP.

The only time where I believe a landraider losing all its hull points would be a serious concern would be if you are playing necrons with lots of gauss.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
If your landraiders (which should be effected by a PFG) are dying from loss of hullpoints, then your opponent must be putting a serious amount of firepower on them.

Seriously, if the opponent has BS4 it would take 72 krak missile, 36 lascannon, or 24 D-cannon shots to take off 4 HP.

The only time where I believe a landraider losing all its hull points would be a serious concern would be if you are playing necrons with lots of gauss.

or drop podded meltas

or if somehow it gets charged by something with armorbane (because you weren't careful enough (i mess up and this happens quite often))

ancraig wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
If your landraiders (which should be effected by a PFG) are dying from loss of hullpoints, then your opponent must be putting a serious amount of firepower on them.

Seriously, if the opponent has BS4 it would take 72 krak missile, 36 lascannon, or 24 D-cannon shots to take off 4 HP.

The only time where I believe a landraider losing all its hull points would be a serious concern would be if you are playing necrons with lots of gauss.

or drop podded meltas

or if somehow it gets charged by something with armorbane (because you weren't careful enough (i mess up and this happens quite often))

It would take an average of 16-17 melta shots at half range to take it out, provided venerable keeps explodes results from happening.
As I said, not a likely occurrence.

As to armourbane or another MC in cc....I don't think so.
Be'lakor, dread and wraithknights all do around 1 HP per turn.

Afterwhich your DWK get out and power up.

All these numbers do require a PFG to remain within range, which is the weakspot of the strategy, now that PFG no longer operate inside a vehicle.

I use a valkyrie with mystics (Inquisitorial henchmen) in it to act as a very fast-moving bubble of precision deep strike, along with servo-skulls.

Are apothecaries worth it for deathwing? Or is losing that melee killing power not worth it?

 Talon of Anathrax wrote:
I use a valkyrie with mystics (Inquisitorial henchmen) in it to act as a very fast-moving bubble of precision deep strike, along with servo-skulls.

Are apothecaries worth it for deathwing? Or is losing that melee killing power not worth it?

I also use Inquisition for the Skulls, though usually In more risky or fun scenarios, as Belial in a LRC does all the serious homing for me.
(INQ is a good pick for DW allies though. The cheap transports, psykers and special weapons really help fill out the DW's weaknesses).

I suppose an apothecary might be acceptable if you are taking a DW standard and are trying to keep it alive. Otherwise I wouldn't usually bother.

Instead of a DW apothecary, just take the Standard of Fortitude.

Apothecary will increase the survivability of an AP2 shot significantly from 1/3 to just over 50%. Loss of a little melee ability matters little when you're going to have a bunch of other AP2 attacks anyway.

Erren wrote:
Instead of a DW apothecary, just take the Standard of Fortitude.

i've used the standard of fortitude in a mass deep strike list before, and it was gold. It's not the same threat as the dakka banner, so your opponent wont focus on it as much. Providing a bubble of FNP is HUGE. just sit them back a bit from the regular termies and have them shoot. The opponent has to think "do i go after the termies just out of my rapid fire range giving FNP to three squads? or do i go after this squad in my rapid fire range about to charge me and wipe a squad/vehicle?" my banner has always made its points back several times over in a game.

To be honest I found the banner to not be worth it. It has 3 key problems:

1) Smart opponents will target the squad with the banner first, particularly with str8 weapons. The banner will rarely save more people than an apothecary, as the command squad will be the first squad to go.

2) The 12 range is a little restricting. If you want to get the most out of your banner then your terminators' movements will be more limited.

3) The command squad only has 5 guys, this makes protecting a 130 point single wound model quite difficult, there are no ablative wounds to work with. If the opponent has deepstriking units then it is hard to prevent the first 2 or prehaps 3 wounds on the squad from being the banner.

4) The banner is not an IC. An apothecary is provided a little more protection from LOS, whereas the banner is not. For anything with precision shots, he is the ultimate target.

Yea no I agree the LRs are survivable with the PFG, I mistyped. I just tend to like to run more dudes as the land raiders don't usually make up their points in kills, but they certainly would by holding an objective. I don't know, I'd have to test them out since LRs are a large investment.

The most effective Deathwing army I've ever played against ran primarily Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnaughts and large Deathwing units with Cyclone launchers and mostly TH/SS Marines. They dodged the command squad question entirely in favour of more bodies.

I have no idea what those dreadnoughts are, but I feel like 30 terminators is a lot of bodies (the list I currently am running). What do those naughts do?

I like a simple null deployment deathwing list. I'd run Belial, 2x5 terminator squads with plasma cannons, 2x5 terminator squads with assault cannons and 3x5 deathwing knights. 36 bodies and the ability to counter deploy on turn one after seeing objectives and enemy deployment.

PanzerLeader wrote:
I like a simple null deployment deathwing list. I'd run Belial, 2x5 terminator squads with plasma cannons, 2x5 terminator squads with assault cannons and 3x5 deathwing knights. 36 bodies and the ability to counter deploy on turn one after seeing objectives and enemy deployment.

I'm personally a fan of belial in a giant squad w/ two heavy flamers or one and a cyclone. Drop down next to some exposed unit, and pick it up. As far as plasma cannons, I prefer cyclones. A bit more expensive (i think, don't have my dex right now), but the option for two small blasts or two krak shots vs one small blast (albiet at higher S and AP). Deathwing knights are kind of personal taste. I use regular dw termies, so i can use the benefit of vengeful strike in an alpha strike turn one. Still, 15 storm shields and the option for 3 units of 15 s 10 ap 2/1 attacks on the charge is very good. They'll wreck pretty much anything they touch on the turn they charge and smite, provided it isn't something w/ a 2++ rerollable sv.

Yea I like knights but I feel like I need to take advantage of the shooting of deathwing so I only run one unit. Personally I'm not a fan of the 10 man deathhwing squad with belial since if they have a vindi or plasma cannons or really any template, you might be in big trouble.

I also use a 10 man double HF with Belial. Don't drop em in the danger zone. Eliminate a unit on a weak flank, and cause havoc. Nobody can ignore 11 Termies. Cyclones are better if you want to keep some range.

 ImRightBehindYou wrote:
Yea I like knights but I feel like I need to take advantage of the shooting of deathwing so I only run one unit. Personally I'm not a fan of the 10 man deathhwing squad with belial since if they have a vindi or plasma cannons or really any template, you might be in big trouble.

eh. flamers/ etc doesn't really bother them. It's pretty much just ap2 or better templates that are bad. And that's the beauty of belial and his unit, you can drop them wherever is safe and still do some damage. Why i typically run the cyclone/HF option. Deep strike near some flank unit like the other user suggested and split fire the cyclone into some rear/side armor/ exposed infantry. never ever forget you can split fire. makes those krak missles BEAUTIFUL.