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 Pyeatt wrote:

 Haight wrote:


1) If you're giving the demo, always lose the demo.

HERESY!!! Win. But try to make it look close. Remind them that newbies wont win for a bit, just like 40k.

The aim of an intro game isn't to win. It's to give a new player the chance to learn how the game functions.

The things to avoid are:

1- Death magic. This is not fun to spring on a new player. The potential to ruin a character and have a second magic phase is not fun.

2- Gunlines. They don't participate in the game evenly. If they work well, then your opponent just pushes forward and pulls models off.

3- Deathstars. Again, you push forward and take your opponents models off.




Magic wise, fire is a good lore for intro games. As is light. Fire is a balanced offensive lore. With no super spells.

Light teaches your opponent the merits of debuffs, buffs, and damage spells.

Army wise, High Elves and Empire are probably the best intro armies. (Dark Elves can do it without the stupidly good choices.) Due to them having balanced choices and participating evenly in all the phases.

 Accolade wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyways, theres absolutely nothing in the OP's post to deem this a "demo" game. The guy brought his own army. He may not have had the books, but he'd already committed in.

Right, which is why Haight said "IF you are giving a demo game," along with all the other advice he put in about new players. Nobody is forgetting it, it was just a side conversation in that post.

Correct, as is often the case on a discussion forum, original topics are not always jackbooted-ly adhered to, and sub-tangents form. Demo's and first / early games of new players became one of them.

But back to the topic! So let me ask you this, halfway through the game when you clearly see the guy is having zero fun while you're merrily re-enacting the scene from Spaceballs where Darkhelmet says "KEEP FIRING donkey-caves!", and you notice the crestfallen look on his face, why didn't , you know say to yourself "Hey, maybe this guys a newb, and rather than keep firing salvo after salvo of fun destroying attacks, maybe i'll take this unit of gunners, and make a march move where he might get a charge off and, ya know, allow him to participate in the game, rather than just abjectly remove the models i tell him to based on my die rolls."

I am curious as to that.

So now that we're back on topic, hopefully you'll let us know if you ever see this guy with square based models at the shop ever again. My money is on "no", but kudos to him if i'm wrong. Secondary question to this, if you do see him with square based models, let us know if he asks you if you'd like to get a game in.


Now if anyone needs me, i'm going to run off to the LGS and see if i can find anyone new to teach the game using my Host of the Phoenix King, Alarielle "Everybody in this list has at least a 3++ ward, and i know just about every spell in the game available to elves". Because that's a fething hoot to play against too.

 Haight wrote:

But back to the topic! So let me ask you this, halfway through the game when you clearly see the guy is having zero fun while you're merrily re-enacting the scene from Spaceballs where Darkhelmet says "KEEP FIRING donkey-caves!", and you notice the crestfallen look on his face, why didn't , you know say to yourself "Hey, maybe this guys a newb, and rather than keep firing salvo after salvo of fun destroying attacks, maybe i'll take this unit of gunners, and make a march move where he might get a charge off and, ya know, allow him to participate in the game, rather than just abjectly remove the models i tell him to based on my die rolls."

Oh. Gak.

To me it looks like "the new guy" just had a rather random collection of models, while the OP brought quite a tough army for 1000 points. Of course he would crush the O&G "army", unless he had tried very hard to lose intentionally.

Options would have been: take a much softer list (unruned characters, smaller blocks, less warmachines), plus supporting "the new guy" with both list building and playing. You really want to talk new players through their first few games, and explain what you do, as well as what they could do (give solid advice, but leave the decision to them - don't make them think you play their game).

To the OP: if you meet the guy again, ask him for a rematch, and prepare a "beginner friendly" list and attitude until then.

To be honest CREEEEED, I shouldn't feel too guilty. It's not like you went there knowing you'd be playing a newbie and had time to prepare for that.

As for letting the guy win, the trouble with that is that it can be pretty obvious that that's what you're trying to do. It's not like you can deliberately fluff dice rolls, and as you're playing a gun line, charging head first at the enemy would just look suspicious.

I think the best bet here would be to just try to play... badly. Choose less ideal targets for your cannons ("Ha hah! My cannons crushed 10 night goblins!"); maybe "forget" some of the optional additions to your army, like the runes on the war machines; try to make unlikely charges with your longbeards. That kind of thing.

Don't beat yourself up over it though. If he plays 40k, he'll probably remember what starting out a new game and losing lots is like anyhow. It's part of what we all go through after all.

I probably wouldn't have let the guy win, but maybe I would have made some less than optimal choices during the battle so that he can have some fun watching his big spider tear through some stunties and try and leave enough savage orcs alive so that they can actually do a bit of damage (even if they are too thin to actually win).

I will admit I've had a couple of games where I only realised half way through I was stomping a newbie and then had to think how can I let him have some fun without being an obvious condescending prick by making it clear I'm allowing him to get back in to the game

At the end of the day who wins is less important than your attitude towards the game. One of the most valuable learning experiences I had figuring out Warmahordes involved me getting stomped by a Cassius tournament list run by a very experienced player; he didn't sugar-coat things or pull punches, he played his best game and talked me through what was going on and why during the game and gave me advice on how to build/play my army better afterwards. It's more about the communication than the winning.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I probably wouldn't have let the guy win, but maybe I would have made some less than optimal choices during the battle so that he can have some fun watching his big spider tear through some stunties and try and leave enough savage orcs alive so that they can actually do a bit of damage (even if they are too thin to actually win).

I will admit I've had a couple of games where I only realised half way through I was stomping a newbie and then had to think how can I let him have some fun without being an obvious condescending prick by making it clear I'm allowing him to get back in to the game

Pretty much this. it's a fine line, but basically don't try to win. But don't try to lose either. Play to their skill level. they're going to make tactical mistakes, so there's no reason you can't as well in the name of creating a fun game. Something I'd recommend for Fantasy is try to get the generals to meet. A big part of the game for a lot of people (especially for a Greenskin player) is their Lord, and seeing him kick some ass. If they lose the game, but win that battle between Lords, that can be a big high point of the game.

Me Like Burnaz wrote:
I'm a new player, got about a year under my belt now, and I can't count the number of devastating defeats I have had. I've had a few slim victories and until last night not a one overwhelming table smashing victory. It takes a while to get these kind of games down, learn the rules and figure out what play style and lists work for you. I've finally decided on doing variations of Mek Mobs instead of Green Tide formations.

I've gotten down a few times around turn three our four when I was down to a couple of nobs, a handful of boys and my vehicles all smoking wrecks. The last fight against a Nid endless swarm formation that ate my ENTIRE ARMY and beat me into the ground was painful and at turn 4 I was about ready to call it, take my models and toss them in a chipper shredder. But you learn something from every battle you fight and I learned that green tide wasn't my thing.

So I tossed out all my lists and started over with a new idea. More vehicles and as much template as I could get on the field. I've also learned to do a better job of target selection and efficient use of resources. I credit the folks here for giving me a lot of good ideas.

Finally, after a year of getting my butt kicked I had a decisive victory against a force of Nids in the battle type I hate the most, Purge the Alien. Smashed him into the ground and used his psyker's heads for drinking goblets! WAAAAGGGHHHHH!!!!!

If he can't take a smashing defeat and learn from it then maybe this isn't the game for him. I'd talk to him and make sure he understands that overwhelming defeats happen no matter how long you've been playing. The Nid player who rubbed my nose in the dirt last week was getting his just deserts at the hands of a Dark Eldar force in a drubbing equal to the one he handed out to me. What comes around, goes around.

There's a noticeable difference between winning in 40k and winning in Fantasy. Fantasy takes way longer to learn how to play your specific army as well as learn how to maneuver and such.

When I first started fantasy I lost so many games with a win every once in a while. Its tougher than 40k because its more about tactics over list buildings (in general anyways)

I think that if you can't take loosing a bunch of games when first learning then you will probably give up (to the OP and the guy he played) its just nice to have someone explain what can be worked on after the game. Most of the time me and the guy I play with talk about the game after the game even if we are both fairly experienced players. Helps build knowledge of the game

Well CREEEED did say that he really didnt bring anything except dwarven massacre units.

So, take it as it was for that game and DONT FEEL BAD that you played your army correctly instead of kamikaze diving them into spiders.

Next time, I suggest of US ALL! :If you're going to bring a killer list to a game store to try to find a random pickup game, ALSO bring a side softie list for the random newb you might see.

-Pyeatt

 Pyeatt wrote:
Well CREEEED did say that he really didnt bring anything except dwarven massacre units.

So, take it as it was for that game and DONT FEEL BAD that you played your army correctly instead of kamikaze diving them into spiders.

Next time, I suggest of US ALL! :If you're going to bring a killer list to a game store to try to find a random pickup game, ALSO bring a side softie list for the random newb you might see.

-Pyeatt

I don't think it would be necessary to do anything like suicide charge spiders or bring a worser list. Just choose poor targets with your shooting so some stuff actually survives long enough to get in to combat.

In a 1000 point game, there's really not too many units to choose to shoot at. Like I said, if you're bringing a hardcore list, bring a small fluff list too.

You can usually waste cannon shots firing at cheap ranked infantry instead of the ginormous spider or the chariot. You can waste small arms fire against the night goblins instead of the savage orcs. If you know far enough ahead of time you can hamstring yourself by seeing where he deploys his big scary units and you yourself deploy units that will struggle against them opposite them.

It's not hard to throw a game of WHFB to the point where it becomes more interesting (even if you still win, make it so it's not a turn 4 tabling).

Even if you win, having the armies collide and lots of dice rolling in combat is vastly more entertaining for a newbie than having their army gunned down before it even crosses the board.

"Wow... It's amazing that this veteran player didn't shoot his killer gunline at my best units.. He must be really dumb... or.. wait... he's letting me win."

You can shoot them, just don't focus fire on them, act as if you expect to be able to beat the weakened units in CC. And I never said you had to let them win, if you get the spider down to a few wounds and the Savage Orcs down to a manageable size you'll still probably win it in combat without roflstomping them.

It's not really the fact creeeeed won, it's more that it's disheartening to see your CC based army gunned down to the point it can do almost nothing. He still could have won it when it came to CC without making it quite so demoralising.

But hey, if you want to bring a 2nd uncompetitive list you can do that, I personally just don't like walking around with lots of extra models... but I also don't play any gunline armies Maybe for a gunline player it's better to bring an extra regiment or two so you can drop out the cannons in favour of some more CC units.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I personally just don't like walking around with lots of extra models...

I understand that. I know a lot of people play in malls and shopping centers where it's scary to leave $1000 in models sitting in the car, and not fun to carry all of it inside if you might not be using it. I based my idea on the familiarity of the stand-alone FLGS I play at and being able to see my car as I game.

With all the CC stuff, there was actually a big combat. Unfortunately it was my longbeards and thane roftlstomping two units of night goblins.

I actually do play in a mall, sort of, where the GW is weirdly in the mall but on the street. anyway sometimes I just bring down butloads of stuff an shove
it under on of the display tables with everyone else's' stuff. We don't worry about thieves, cause there are always a few of us in the shop at any time and most people don't know how much it's worth.

is the list not over 1000 points?
24 thunderers plus command 318
20 longbeards with great weapons and shields full command 330
thane plus 75 points = 140

788 points plus 360 points of warmachines plus runes!?

Experiment 626 wrote:
Dwarfs are the army you play when you want to ensure both players walk away from the table feeling miserable.

It's just the stunties' nature to make everyone hate their own life as much as they do!

Only if you slam down a gunline, imo. I played my first game of 8th (I'm a Warhammer veteran of many years, but was out of the game for the last 6 years). I was Vampire Counts and my opponent was Dwarfs. At 1000 pts he only brought one organ gun and a gyrocopter. The rest of the army was Longbeards and Ironbreakers. I did get smashed, due to my rustiness (I lost count of the number of mistakes I made), but it was FUN. A nice big scrum right in centerfield.

bertmac wrote:
is the list not over 1000 points?
24 thunderers plus command 318
20 longbeards with great weapons and shields full command 330
thane plus 75 points = 140

788 points plus 360 points of warmachines plus runes!?

I have realized that you are right, its over 1000, having more points on a dude is pretty big, but if I had taken out some runes and the organ gun,
it wouldn't have changed the outcome drastically, since almost all the runes didn't come up, and the organ gun killed about five goblins all game long.

So not only is he new, but I took more points.

Just get battlescribe, use that to double check your lists

you'd need to take out the organ gun and one of the cannons with that list. or at least reduce the thanes runes.
788 plus 1 cannon is 908 points coulda taken a gyro in there.

I can sympathize with the OP, having gone through a similar experience recently.

I made a friend recently and he happened to be dabbling in miniatures. The Kid owned a few dwarve and a few Orks (40k) and he was really interested in painting them so we hit it off, got together after work and had a few painting sessions. I taught him how to dry brush and a few other techniques, and then we started playing a few games. Now I'm at the point where the OP is kinda, the Kid gets worked badly sometimes and you can just tell he hates it.

I mean didn't we all through? Those first few games before you really know what you're doing can be really discouraging! My first game was against DE and I used the chaos side of the DV set. Won big time. Then realized the DE guy handed me a free win because every game after that I got worked by DE. That's a whole other story but the short version is this. I learned to play in a very closed environment against veteran players who had competitive lists. I almost quit except for the one guy, Space Wolf player, he was really good about how he played. He was always in it for the Wolves, didn't matter win or lose, Russ will avenge me he'd always say. He just loved his army and loved to play it, and that rubbed off on me and that's what keeps me in the game today.

Long winded I know, but my message to the OP is this: go back to the store, find the guy, and take him under your wing! Teach the dude how to play, make friends with him. Show him the true joy of GW games, and you will have made a life long fan and probably a good gamer pal in the process.

I myself? I plan on mentoring the Kid the same way I was. Just bring your love of the game to the table and everyone will walk away a winner.

This is a good thread, and I hope I'm not the only one who really got something from it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I should mention that I've only been playing for about 2 years now, only 40k until recently.

I just wanted to throw in there that I not really an expert list builder, and I'll show you an example. Me and the Kid played a game the other day. 1000 points, he had about 30 Boyz, 5 bikes, 3 koptas, 2 buggies, some nobs and a Warboss. At this point he doesn't own the codex, but I do, so I'm writing lists for him. Half his army is txhnically mine still, so it all lives at my house. So I thought that I would make the smallest army possible, thinking that he would be able to swarm me. I had a Chapter Master, 6 Honour Guard, 5 termies with a termie chap, bare bones tac squad, barebones scouts, and a TL Las Dread. I thought at the time that he would have no trouble swamping me in bodies and grabbing objectives (we play eternal war only, for now) but in reality? He was unable to contest my objective, he lost FB, and his super fast objective grabbers all got shot down. He split his forces and was unable to break the terminators or the HG and in turn 4 he lost his warlord, sealing his fate. He seemed pretty dejected because I only lost a couple HG, and a few termies. I just didn't have the heart to tell him that he made some really silly mistakes. Should I have? Was my list too powerful for him? I didn't use the Orbital and even though I took the shield eternal on the CM I didn't use the invul save at any point. I feel like if I had given him some advice he would have fared much better, but he seems to think Marines are unstoppable now.

Just wanted to share that, and maybe ask for some advice on how to be a better teacher?

darkcloak wrote:
I can sympathize with the OP, having gone through a similar experience recently.

Thanks.

darkcloak wrote:
Long winded I know, but my message to the OP is this: go back to the store, find the guy, and take him under your wing! Teach the dude how to play, make friends with him. Show him the true joy of GW games, and you will have made a life long fan and probably a good gamer pal in the process.

Yeah, I'm not going back there for a while. Mainly because my mum refuses to drive me there during term time, and at 14 with no oyster card that baisically is the only way I'm gonna' get there. :(

Ah darn! Well I gotta say for a 14 year old you show a lot of maturity. Most kids your age would just brag about the dumb OnG player they just stomped. I'm impressed that you actually cared enough to come here and question your own actions and looked for advice.

You just bring that attitude to every battle, whether they involve minis or not, and you'll do fine in life.

darkcloak wrote:
Ah darn! Well I gotta say for a 14 year old you show a lot of maturity. Most kids your age would just brag about the dumb OnG player they just stomped. I'm impressed that you actually cared enough to come here and question your own actions and looked for advice.

You just bring that attitude to every battle, whether they involve minis or not, and you'll do fine in life.

Day=Made

Honestly this doesn't surprise me. Its not because Dwarves are Over Powered, but rather because Dwarves are simply no fun to play against- especially your army list.

Dwarves are boring for opponents for the exact same reasons that many people find playing against Tau in Warhammer 40K to be tedious. Long range gunlines suck to play against.

I have always stood by the proposition that Warhammer is best when the average engagement range is around 24 inches or less. At these shorter rangers considerations such as opening up your flank to a charge, avoiding the half range ballistic skill penalty, and using the movement phase to set up charges come into play. Both players are a lot more involved and tactics and the movement phase really come into play.

What happens is that the Dwarf "competitive" lists tend to focus on blasting the ever living crap out of their opponents from long range with excellent cost effective war machines, and cleaning up the leftovers with a wall of tough Dwarves. That sucks to play against, because it feels like the Dwarf player is just playing against themselves. Strategy in movement in drained away because the Dwarfs can out range most enemies guns, and the enemy tends to just splash into a wall of Great Weapon Quarellers which grind out the remaining members of their army. Games against Dwarves tend to boil down to- Can the opposing army close fast enough with enough numbers to puch through the Dwarven Defenses? If yes, that army wins. If no that army doesn't. All long range warmachine focused lists are incredibly boring to play against- whether it is warmachine spam Dwarves, Empire, or even Orcs and Goblins (doom diver + lobba spam anybody?)

I AM NOT SAYING Dwarves ARE OVERPOWERED, They can be defeated, and there are ways to play against them that will defeat them. But its often not fun, and I cannot blame anybody for refusing to play a game when a gun line is pulled out of a bag. Because win or lose the experience is empty.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

darkcloak wrote:
I can sympathize with the OP, having gone through a similar experience recently.

Thanks.

darkcloak wrote:
Long winded I know, but my message to the OP is this: go back to the store, find the guy, and take him under your wing! Teach the dude how to play, make friends with him. Show him the true joy of GW games, and you will have made a life long fan and probably a good gamer pal in the process.

Yeah, I'm not going back there for a while. Mainly because my mum refuses to drive me there during term time, and at 14 with no oyster card that baisically is the only way I'm gonna' get there. :(

Fair being fair, i had you pegged for MUCH older than 14 (which is a compliment btw), so sorry if i came off a bit strong. Would have bet the farm you were a very late teens, early twenty something. You show a lot of maturity. More than when i was your age.

Thanks dude!

Another thumbs up for maturity. ;-)

If you do happen to see this person when you're in the store again it might well be a good idea to go up to them and explain that you realised afterwards that you'd calculated your points wrong and blame the one-sidedness of the game on that, and apologise. That way you're not remembered as TFG that stomped him, but as nice guy who owns up to their mistakes.

Then ask to play again with a de-optimised version of the list. You mentioned you had some warriors you didn't use, so maybe drop one of the cannons and some thunderers in favour of some warriors, and leave off the runes. That way even if you win the rematch convincingly, it probably won't be due to wiping stuff out before it gets into combat, so he'll get to participate more fully in the game.