Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 NightHowler wrote:
(note the lack of any definition of a successful charge here)

If you don't have a failed charge, you must have a successful charge. There isn't a limbo of "you sorta kinda didn't really succeed, but you didn't fail!"
The quotes you found are the relevant ones.

Please, if you have the book, somebody quote the rule for what a failed charge is. I know that it's in the book, I just don't have mine with me.

Paraphrasing is not a very effective or efficient way to get to the bottom of a rules discussion.

"A unit can never declare a charge against a unit it cannot reach." No exact page number, only got the mobi right now. It's in the "Declare Charge" paragraph, the first bolded sentence.

Seems pretty clear to me. If you can't reach a unit with maximum charge distance, then you can't declare a charge. Getting the initial charger into base contact is a requirement for a successful charge.

"If the initial charger is found to be further than its charge range from the enemy, the charge fails and no models are moved." (def. Failed Charge).

 NightHowler wrote:
@Insaniak, you might want to reread the discussion real closely... the only "Quotes" I can find are referenced below and everything else looks like paraphrasing to me.

Indeed. And this:

For declare charge the rule text is:
"A unit can never DECLARE a charge against a unit that it cannot reach, nor can it declare a charge against a unit it can not see"

...is the relevant quote.


If there is no way to get a model into base contact with the target unit, your charger can never reach its target... in which case you can not declare the charge in the first place. The discussion of failed charges is irrelevant, because the charge just never gets to the declaration stage.

 insaniak wrote:

 NightHowler wrote:
@Insaniak, you might want to reread the discussion real closely... the only "Quotes" I can find are referenced below and everything else looks like paraphrasing to me.

Indeed. And this:

For declare charge the rule text is:
"A unit can never DECLARE a charge against a unit that it cannot reach, nor can it declare a charge against a unit it can not see"

...is the relevant quote.


If there is no way to get a model into base contact with the target unit, your charger can never reach its target... in which case you can not declare the charge in the first place. The discussion of failed charges is irrelevant, because the charge just never gets to the declaration stage.

Actually, Sigvatr just gave me the quote I was looking for. I appreciate that you felt all the relevant rules had been quoted, but I was looking for that one in particular.

The only definition given for a failed charge is: "If the initial charger is found to be further than it's charge range from the enemy, the charge fails and no models are moved."

 NightHowler wrote:
@Insaniak, you might want to reread the discussion real closely... the only "Quotes" I can find are referenced below and everything else looks like paraphrasing to me. The difference in this kind of discussion is HUGE. I guess I'll just wait till I get home and have a look at my BRB, but thanks for trying.

"quotes" I found in the discussion:

The rulebook states: A Unit cannot declare a charge against a unit it cannot reach, this being normal max charge range (12). So for an example: a unit rolls to charge, gets 8. Moves the initial charger so that it is now 6 inches away from the squad it was charging.

For declare charge the rule text is:
"A unit can never DECLARE a charge against a unit that it cannot reach, nor can it declare a charge against a unit it can not see"

Models that are in base contact with a barricade or wall are treated as being in base contact with any enemy models who are directly opposite them and in base contact with the other side of that barricade or wall. Units charging an enemy that is behind a barricade or wall count as charging through difficult terrain.

(note the lack of any definition of a successful charge here)

Nighthowler... the issue is not really with the definition of a successful charge. In fact, a successful charge is not defined. A failed charge is...

Small Rulebook, Page 47 - "If the initial charger is found to be further than its charge range from the enemy, the charge fails and no models are moved."

You'll note that there is no mention of a failed charge occurring when the initial charger is unable to get into base to base contact. The reason for this is that you can't ever declare a charge against a unit that you can't reach. Following that line of reasoning, you can only declare an assault against a unit you CAN reach.

The bickering seems to involve what "cannot reach" and by extension, "can reach" means. The most reasonable interpretation of "can reach" seems to be "can physically move forward such that the moving model is in base to base contact with the target model/unit." Therefore, the most reasonable interpretation of "cannot reach" seems to be "cannot physically move forward such that the moving model is in base to base contact with the target model/unit."

Check out the below photos. The Necron Destroyer Lord is completely encircled by a unit of Canoptek Scarabs. These Scarabs have obviously been buffed up by a bunch of Spyders, because there are tons of them! The Destroyer Lord is more than 2" away from all Spyders, and so is not in coherency with them. The crazy, dual axe wielding Lone Wolf (who may or may not be leading his own force as a slotted HQ) decides that he wants to assault the Destroyer Lord. Can he? He's obviously within the maximum 12" charge range... but has no way to physically reach the Lord as he can't move through the Scarabs. My take is that he can't reach the Lord, so he can't declare a charge against the Lord. This is just one situation, but it illustrates that max charge range isn't the only factor in determining whether or not a model/unit can declare a charge.

In fact...

Small Rulebook, Page 45 - "A unit can never declare a charge against a unit it cannot reach, nor can it declare a charge against a unit it cannot see, though it is allowed to charge an enemy unit it is impossible for it to harm. This means that a charge can USUALLY only be declared on a unit up to 12" away (the maximum charge range for most models, as we'll discover later."

I've added emphasis on the usually bit. I've demonstrated one unusual situation where a unit is within max charge range of another unit, but can't declare a charge as it can't reach the target enemy unit. There are plenty of other situations. If a target enemy unit is completely filling up a floor of a ruins, it's impossible to "reach" them. If a target enemy unit is completely surrounded by a different enemy unit, it is impossible to "reach" them. If a target enemy unit is embarked on a Transport, it is impossible to "reach" them. Etc. Etc.

TLR; Successful charge doesn't need to be defined since failed charge is defined as rolling to low on the charge dice to get the initial charger into base to base. If you can't physically get into base to base in the first place, you can't declare a charge, and so never get to talk about successful or failed charges.

 NightHowler wrote:
Actually, Sigvatr just gave me the quote I was looking for. I appreciate that you felt all the relevant rules had been quoted, but I was looking for that one in particular.

The only definition given for a failed charge is: "If the initial charger is found to be further than it's charge range from the enemy, the charge fails and no models are moved."

Except, again, in the example under discussion the definition of a failed charge isirrelevant, because no charge could be declared to begin with.

 insaniak wrote:

 NightHowler wrote:
Actually, Sigvatr just gave me the quote I was looking for. I appreciate that you felt all the relevant rules had been quoted, but I was looking for that one in particular.

The only definition given for a failed charge is: "If the initial charger is found to be further than it's charge range from the enemy, the charge fails and no models are moved."

Except, again, in the example under discussion the definition of a failed charge isirrelevant, because no charge could be declared to begin with.

Yup. Not to mention that exact, irrelevant, line is quoted twice on the first page of this discussion, including in the original post. Go figure.

 Kriswall wrote:
Nighthowler... the issue is not really with the definition of a successful charge. In fact, a successful charge is not defined. A failed charge is...

Small Rulebook, Page 47 - "If the initial charger is found to be further than its charge range from the enemy, the charge fails and no models are moved."

You'll note that there is no mention of a failed charge occurring when the initial charger is unable to get into base to base contact. The reason for this is that you can't ever declare a charge against a unit that you can't reach. Following that line of reasoning, you can only declare an assault against a unit you CAN reach.

The bickering seems to involve what "cannot reach" and by extension, "can reach" means. The most reasonable interpretation of "can reach" seems to be "can physically move forward such that the moving model is in base to base contact with the target model/unit." Therefore, the most reasonable interpretation of "cannot reach" seems to be "cannot physically move forward such that the moving model is in base to base contact with the target model/unit."

Small Rulebook, Page 45 - "A unit can never declare a charge against a unit it cannot reach, nor can it declare a charge against a unit it cannot see, though it is allowed to charge an enemy unit it is impossible for it to harm. This means that a charge can USUALLY only be declared on a unit up to 12" away (the maximum charge range for most models, as we'll discover later."

I've added emphasis on the usually bit. I've demonstrated one unusual situation where a unit is within max charge range of another unit, but can't declare a charge as it can't reach the target enemy unit. There are plenty of other situations. If a target enemy unit is completely filling up a floor of a ruins, it's impossible to "reach" them. If a target enemy unit is completely surrounded by a different enemy unit, it is impossible to "reach" them. If a target enemy unit is embarked on a Transport, it is impossible to "reach" them. Etc. Etc.

TLR; Successful charge doesn't need to be defined since failed charge is defined as rolling to low on the charge dice to get the initial charger into base to base. If you can't physically get into base to base in the first place, you can't declare a charge, and so never get to talk about successful or failed charges.

Thanks. This kind of thoughtful discussion is, I believe, the best way to answer questions about rules. I appreciate you taking the time to write it out so thoroughly.

I've heard this argument before and I wasn't going to get involved in it again, because once people have decided what they believe it's often very difficult to persuade them otherwise. However, I couldn't resist, so I'll give it one last stab.

The part of your argument that I disagree with hinges on your definition of "reach". I believe that in your nice example with the with the beautiful picture (I love the dual axe wielding lonewolf btw) you are correct. He can not charge because he can not measure a route to the target - his path is completely blocked. However, in the case of models on the second floor of a ruin, there is nothing preventing a model from reaching the second floor. The fact that there is no place to put your model once he gets there may or may not be relevant depending on how you interpret "reach". If, like I do, you believe that reach only implies measuring the distance traveled between start and destination, then the ruins present a completely different scenario from the one with the scarabs. In your picture the scarabs completely block any route to the target, but in a ruins, nothing is blocking your path but the target. You can "reach" the target just fine, you simply can't leave your model in base to base because it will fall.

This is why the definition of a "failed charge" was so important to my argument.

The assault rules specify that it follows normal movement rules excepting that you may come within 1" of an enemy model. If you are not able to place a model(due to there being nowhere to place said model) then it is not a legal move.

 NightHowler wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Nighthowler... the issue is not really with the definition of a successful charge. In fact, a successful charge is not defined. A failed charge is...

Small Rulebook, Page 47 - "If the initial charger is found to be further than its charge range from the enemy, the charge fails and no models are moved."

You'll note that there is no mention of a failed charge occurring when the initial charger is unable to get into base to base contact. The reason for this is that you can't ever declare a charge against a unit that you can't reach. Following that line of reasoning, you can only declare an assault against a unit you CAN reach.

The bickering seems to involve what "cannot reach" and by extension, "can reach" means. The most reasonable interpretation of "can reach" seems to be "can physically move forward such that the moving model is in base to base contact with the target model/unit." Therefore, the most reasonable interpretation of "cannot reach" seems to be "cannot physically move forward such that the moving model is in base to base contact with the target model/unit."

Small Rulebook, Page 45 - "A unit can never declare a charge against a unit it cannot reach, nor can it declare a charge against a unit it cannot see, though it is allowed to charge an enemy unit it is impossible for it to harm. This means that a charge can USUALLY only be declared on a unit up to 12" away (the maximum charge range for most models, as we'll discover later."

I've added emphasis on the usually bit. I've demonstrated one unusual situation where a unit is within max charge range of another unit, but can't declare a charge as it can't reach the target enemy unit. There are plenty of other situations. If a target enemy unit is completely filling up a floor of a ruins, it's impossible to "reach" them. If a target enemy unit is completely surrounded by a different enemy unit, it is impossible to "reach" them. If a target enemy unit is embarked on a Transport, it is impossible to "reach" them. Etc. Etc.

TLR; Successful charge doesn't need to be defined since failed charge is defined as rolling to low on the charge dice to get the initial charger into base to base. If you can't physically get into base to base in the first place, you can't declare a charge, and so never get to talk about successful or failed charges.

Thanks. This kind of thoughtful discussion is, I believe, the best way to answer questions about rules. I appreciate you taking the time to write it out so thoroughly.

I've heard this argument before and I wasn't going to get involved in it again, because once people have decided what they believe it's often very difficult to persuade them otherwise. However, I couldn't resist, so I'll give it one last stab.

The part of your argument that I disagree with hinges on your definition of "reach". I believe that in your nice example with the with the beautiful picture (I love the dual axe wielding lonewolf btw) you are correct. He can not charge because he can not measure a route to the target - his path is completely blocked. However, in the case of models on the second floor of a ruin, there is nothing preventing a model from reaching the second floor. The fact that there is no place to put your model once he gets there may or may not be relevant depending on how you interpret "reach". If, like I do, you believe that reach only implies measuring the distance traveled between start and destination, then the ruins present a completely different scenario from the one with the scarabs. In your picture the scarabs completely block any route to the target, but in a ruins, nothing is blocking your path but the target. You can "reach" the target just fine, you simply can't leave your model in base to base because it will fall.

This is why the definition of a "failed charge" was so important to my argument.

Yup. Ultimately this debate comes down to very specific in game situations where a model simply can't be placed where you'd like it to be placed. "Wobbly Model Syndrome" is usually invoked in the sense of "I'd like to place my model hovering in the air next to your model on the second floor an in base to base contact, but it falls over every time I let go. WMS!" While I don't think the rules really allow this to happen, in a real game I typically play it (HYWPI disclaimer!) that if the charging unit can roll high enough dice, I'm happy to let him sit on the floor right below and just agree that he's in base to base. I do this because it's the sportsmanlike thing to do. In terms of actual rules... up for debate, but what isn't in this rule set!

And thanks for the complement on the Space Wolf Dude. He's based off a picture I saw where a Space Wolf ahs been kidnapped by the Dark Eldar and forced to fight in gladiatorial arenas. I use him as a Death Cult Assassin in my Inquisitor's Retinue. I know this is a rules forum, so please ignore if you don't care, but here's a cleaner shot of the model. The example above was super blurry.

I can't find anywhere in the charge rules where it says that you have to be able to place a model. I only see that a failed charge is defined as not being able to reach the target, and that is "if you are further than your charge range from the enemy".

In the box example, the ork is only 2" away from the charging marine. even if the marine rolls snake eyes, it's still a successful charge by that definition. The definition found in the book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
The assault rules specify that it follows normal movement rules excepting that you may come within 1" of an enemy model. If you are not able to place a model(due to there being nowhere to place said model) then it is not a legal move.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thanks Kriswall. I ususally cringe before posting here because the responses are often very aggressive. Not so with your replies. Thanks again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dude! Even better up close. Thanks for sharing. It was a little blurry in the first one. Very cool.

 NightHowler wrote:
I can't find anywhere in the charge rules where it says that you have to be able to place a model. I only see that a failed charge is defined as not being able to reach the target, and that is "if you are further than your charge range from the enemy".

In the box example, the ork is only 2" away from the charging marine. even if the marine rolls snake eyes, it's still a successful charge by that definition. The definition found in the book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
The assault rules specify that it follows normal movement rules excepting that you may come within 1" of an enemy model. If you are not able to place a model(due to there being nowhere to place said model) then it is not a legal move.

Found the rules quotes I was looking for.

Pg 46 of the hard back rules book, under the Moving Charging Models section about the middle of the paragraph "following the same rules as in the Movement phase, with the exception that they can be moved within 1" of enemy models."


Pg 21 of the hard back rules book, Moving Through Terrain Second Paragraph first sentence "Models can also use their move to 'climb up' terrain, as long as the model is able to finish the move on a location where it can be stood"

You didn't find it in the charge rules because it is in the movement rules.

I thought I would listen to some replies before chiming in again. I think I get it now, and I'm on your side of you cant charge without base contact, but for different reasons than have been posted. A lot of people fall back to ""A unit can never declare a charge against a unit it cannot reach." I have stated through posting rules and turn order why I don't agree with this.

The rule that stands out is:
------------

Move initial charger: "Move initial charger into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being charged." pg46



Since you cannot do that, then the move initial chargers step cannot be done, since you cannot move, you cannot reach the target.

So while the rule everyone quotes is in the end, correct, It's more the "move initial charger" part that cannot be done.


Thanks for all the help everyone, I like to understand stuff completely.

Unless you've measured first and found that no matter what you roll for your charge range you won't be able to get into contact with the nearest enemy model.

 insaniak wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Okay, as your point on this issue has changed (from our earlier discussions of "simply fails"; it does not exist; etc),

My point hasn't changed.

The previous discussions have been about the fact that if you had declared the charge, and your movement is insufficient to bring you into contact with the enemy unit, your charge fails.

The point being made in this thread is that if it is evident that you will be unable to reach the enemy unit, then you can't actually declare the charge in the first place.

Well the previous thread was about a Unit filling a Ruins floor (basically the Box example), and the "A unit can never declare a charge against a unit that it cannot reach" argument was never made, is all.

 insaniak wrote:

... could you provide a quote of the rules which disallow you from declaring a Charge against a Unit you should technically have no issue reaching, but which you cannot get into base contact with?

This question confuses me.

You want a rules quote that says that you can't declare a charge against a unit that you can reach, but that you can't reach?

Missed it further up, just wanted the rule you were basing yourself on:
"A unit can never declare a charge against a unit that it cannot reach, nor can it declare a charge against a unit it can not see"

 insaniak wrote:

Here is an example of the most simplistic form:
A Space marine is 1.5" away from a 2" high Box, this box is about 0.5" x 0.5". The marine can easily reach and climb this box.
An ork moves past the marine, and gets on the box.
The marine now declare a charge against the ork, ...

Since it is readily apparent that he will be unable to reach base contact with the ork, you can not declare a charge against it.

If you did declare a charge against it, then your charge would fail because no amount of charge distance you roll will be sufficient to allow the marine to move into base contact.

My issue with this is the same as NightHowler:

 NightHowler wrote:

The part of your argument that I disagree with hinges on your definition of "reach". (...) in the case of models on the second floor of a ruin, there is nothing preventing a model from reaching the second floor. The fact that there is no place to put your model once he gets there may or may not be relevant depending on how you interpret "reach". If, like I do, you believe that reach only implies measuring the distance traveled between start and destination, then the ruins present a completely different scenario from the one with the scarabs. In your picture the scarabs completely block any route to the target, but in a ruins, nothing is blocking your path but the target. You can "reach" the target just fine, you simply can't leave your model in base to base because it will fall.

With emphasis on the underlined. You can replace "Ruins" with "Ork on a Box", but it is the same confusion.

Why can the Space Marine not "reach" the box? Without the Ork on it, he could clearly do so.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Why can the Space Marine not "reach" the box? Without the Ork on it, he could clearly do so.

Because, unless you apply WMS, the movement rules don't allow him to do so.

 Kriswall wrote:
Small Rulebook, Page 45 - "A unit can never declare a charge against a unit it cannot reach, nor can it declare a charge against a unit it cannot see, though it is allowed to charge an enemy unit it is impossible for it to harm. This means that a charge can USUALLY only be declared on a unit up to 12" away (the maximum charge range for most models, as we'll discover later."

I've added emphasis on the usually bit. I've demonstrated one unusual situation where a unit is within max charge range of another unit, but can't declare a charge as it can't reach the target enemy unit. There are plenty of other situations. If a target enemy unit is completely filling up a floor of a ruins, it's impossible to "reach" them. If a target enemy unit is completely surrounded by a different enemy unit, it is impossible to "reach" them. If a target enemy unit is embarked on a Transport, it is impossible to "reach" them.

I skimmed through this post, but i think this is the description i was looking for.

"A unit can never declare a charge against a unit it cannot reach," does not only refer to a distance?
It refers to any form of "reach B2B", which, even at 1.5" distance, the impossibility of B2B = cannot reach in the rule?

Look under Moving Charging Models... Move Initial Charger, "Move the initial charger into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being charged." This right here says the first guy moved has to be in contact with the model charged. It goes on to tell you how to move the rest of the models which does not pertain here, the point is the first charger must be in contact, not 3" or 1" away. Otherwise it isa failed charge.